Mark75

Agreed.

Thanx for the stimulating discussion. So then, is atheism and an external locus of control, mutually exclusive? If so, then does the converse hold true?

Well forgive me, now I am going off on some crazy trajectory that may not be relevant, nor even logical, LOL

Sugah

My oldest son is atheist. He worships empiricism. My conception of God and his understanding of the Universe are, with very minor (mainly semantic) differences, the same. Laws of math and physics existed before they were discovered, right? So, where does the spark of inspiration come from that allowed humans to discover and apply them? He would offer one argument, and I would offer another.

But it doesn't matter, really. What we believe about the Universe, its creation and its function, doesn't change what is. As a person of faith, I believe that, with applied prayer and meditation, I can find a more harmonious path to walk -- while my son is more interested in the mechanics of the path itself.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Sugah

My mother didn't drink, and yet I pursued alcohol from my first few tastes. My parents attest to it. My first black-out drunk happened when I was six, hiding to drink a bottle of homemade wine. Getting violently ill, in trouble, and hating the taste didn't deter me in the least.

Oh, don't think alcoholism is much different than a lot of other disorders -- depression, bi-polar, BPD, etc. I've been diagnosed with several, and the solution to them has been the same one I apply to my alcoholism -- downsize my ego. The more pampered and entitled our society becomes, the more people we see suffering from these disorders. Discontentment, "how unfair the world is to me," "what I deserve," not knowing what I want but pretty sure what I have isn't it....and though I don't think religion (or a specific religion) is the answer, I feel pretty sure that atheism isn't, either.

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Terminally Unique

I started guzzling it down and got a nice whopper of a hangover the first time also, but if I hadn't started drinking in the first place, I never would have become dependent on it. Interestingly, not very long after I started drinking, the hangovers more or less disappeared, and for years I was able to drink with impunity, or so I thought, and I couldn't understand why others got hangovers. I used to tell myself that unlike me, they just didn't know how to drink. :-)

They came back with a vengeance at the end of my run, though...

Atheism isn't a solution to anything, it is just disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity (creator, intelligent designer, higher power with a will, etc). Nothing more, nothing less.

Terminally Unique

Yes.

Why does there need to be a spark, and why does it need to come from somewhere other then one's own mind? Can humans not have "aha!" moments simply by observing and reflecting on the world around them?

Sugah

If the "aha!" comes from observing and reflecting on the external world, then it's not originating solely in one's own mind, is it?

Somewhere in our evolutionary development, we began to yearn for something beyond our needs for survival. Just living, eating, shitting, staying warm in the winter, and making more of ourselves wasn't enough. Nearly every culture has a mythology that explains how they came to be, why they're here, and some moral code to guide their actions (along with punitive measures for those who step out of line). We have music and literature and art. We have NASCAR and trampolines and subcultures who paint themselves with latex for sexual kicks. We have people who die for love.

I almost said that I don't believe that true atheism exists -- that it's just a matter of degree how willing a person is to see what's right in front of us all. But I think, instead, what I have a hard time believing is that anyone can live, or desires to live, with the idea that all this is random, that we're random, and that some little blip in the chaos spit us out, and everything we've built is no big deal. The evidence I see in the world tells me that we've always been reaching for something just beyond our ability to comprehend it. We know it's there, and we build up these mythologies and indulge in these ecstasies to try to honor it or explain it. We need Meaning and Purpose. I don't believe in any One, True Religion because I can't comprehend our human filters as capable of Receiving perfectly -- but I think they all contain a spark, if you will, of what's really there.

Anyway...

Peace & Love,
Sugah

Terminally Unique

You wouldn't be the first to believe that, or to say it. That is essentially the premise of "We Agnostics," though few will readily admit it, certainly not when recommending it to an atheist. Although I have not read it, if I had to venture to guess, I would say that Marya Hornbacher's new book is probably her version of a story from "Came to Believe."

I suspect that many atheists might wonder the same thing about those who are theist. If you study cultural anthropology, there is the concept of world-view, which is essentially the lens through which they view the nature of reality, and colors how they view the rest of the world. Two people with different world-views will often reach very different conclusions given the exact same facts, simply because their filter is very different.

whycantistop

I am also atheist and this has been one of my biggest issues with support groups. Instead of tackling issues directly and instead of looking at the reasons why people are the way they are in an objective way, they put things to chance instead of targeting things directly. When people say "your higher power can be anything. It could be a doorknob if you want it too" yet AA relies entirely on this higher power. The first 10 steps almost have entirely to do with putting your faith in a higher power. It's hard to take AA seriously if you are not a religious person.

onlythetruth

You make a good point: I am talking about actually working a program, whereas others are talking about getting social support at an AA meeting--very different.

Thanks for pointing that out.

wpainterw

Well, you seem to know more about alcoholism than I do and I'm intrigued by your statistics, namely that 75 percent of folks recover without the use of an addiction support group. It would be interesting to know where this data came from.
Anyway, I've been sober for 22 years plus. I may not know much about alcoholism, why I got sick or why I got into recovery, but that's not important to me. What's important to me is that I don't drink. And don't want to. That's what matters to me. I'll let all the experts continue to figure out why, if they can...

W.

Terminally Unique

I'm glad you asked. It comes from NIAAA’s 2001–2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions (NESARC).
Hour-long lecture given by Mark L. Willenbring, MD, director of the division of treatment and recovery research at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA):

wpainterw

Thanks. I shall read this with interest!

W.

wpainterw

Avrt- A brief P.S. I have enjoyed and profited by Dr. Willenbring's excellent presentation. If I understand it correctly he asserts that persons having drinking problems fall into a wide range and that only a small percentage of these fall into the classification of the "falling down drunk", who has perhaps lost a spouse, a job, health, house, etc. (as in the old movies "Lost Weekend", "When a Man Loves a Woman", etc.). But, for this relatively small percentage of sufferers, he does not say that a significant number of these patients can recover without the help of some kind of group program, whether AA or something else, which enables them to have the help and advice of other alcoholics. Indeed, another highly respected physician, who has made an extensive study of the illness and updated that study a few years ago, has taken the position that some kind of group support statistically increases the chances of recovery for persons who are in this very severe and chronic stage. His findings, like Dr. Willenbring's, are easily accessible on the internet.
My conclusion is that treatment and prognosis should depend on the individual case. Persons in the relatively small percentage who have had severe and recurrent disasters, such as loss of job, home, family, problems with the law, have an increased chance of recovery by participation in a program which provides group support. That need not necessarily be AA. The primary benefit comes from fellowship with and help from other alcoholics.

W.

onlythetruth

I think this is indeed what Dr. Willenbring asserts--that at the more extreme end of the spectrum, social support (not necessarily AA) can be helpful. Sadly, though, the US treatment delivery system continues to treat all levels of severity the same way, and to require AA to the exclusion of non-faith-based support groups.

LosingmyMisery

No one has ever surveyed me. Why is that? If they had their statistics would be different.

soberlicious

I agree with this, and a chance not to have to lie or hide is exactly what most folks starting out in AA want so badly. As I said before, I think it's great that the author had such a good experience with others in the program that were open to listening and to actually following the principles that look so good on paper. That is as it should be. As with many ideas that look good on paper though, execution of those ideas can be a bit trickier. I have attended many (maybe 150 give or take a few) AA meetings of varying formats and in 3different cities. Based solely on my personal experience, people can become outwardly aggressive when someone shares something that they view as challenging the program in any way, even if that is not what the speaker intended. Sharing that you are an aethist would NOT be well recieved. I do not think that telling someone to "shut up and sit down" or "you're going to relapse" yada yada yada is any way going to enrich one's spiritual experience. I have seen people coming in off the streets where they have been living, sharing their pain, then being chastised (in front of the entire group) just for using profanity(?!) Way to completely miss the point. I do not like to see further suffering inflicted on an already broken soul. This bothers me on such a level it's difficult to put into words.

I know some may say "That's not real AA", "it's not supposed to be that way", "just a bad group", etc....fact is...it happens and unfortunately somewhat frequently. When a group is as the author describes, it could have the power to be something extremely useful. But, imo, the very design of the program not does allow for a free exchange of ideas. That environment is challenging for me because I am always pondering...questioning...I grow most when I open my mind. It's how I'm made. I was that kid in school that was like "What do you mean Colombus discovered America??? There were already people living there. I call b&llsh&t!!" So, you see people like me can sometimes squirm in the folding chairs of the church basement

That said, I think there is some inherent value in the 12 steps, albiet as already stated by other posters, pretty difficult to apply if you are a non- believer. As for fellowship and group support...it's very important in my recovery, but it certainly doesn't have to be solely a group of other alcoholics/addicts that can help me in recovery. It can be the book club that I attend. It can be the yoga group I exercise with. It can be the couple of friends I take nightly walks with. It can be a group of co-workers gathering for the cancer walk. It can be going with friends to listen to a band. These group activities have nothing to do with alcoholism but they help me the most in my recovery from addiction. Any group of cool people living life and being fairly happy works for me. When it is a group of unhappy people not living life, um...well it stands to reason that could cause a relapse But I actually go against the majority on this point...I love AA coffee!!

None of my opinions here are intended as a cut on AA. There was a point in time I got something useful from AA, then there was a point in time that I didn't. The pain of addiction is unbearble and I am deeply joyous when any fellow sufferer finds their way out of the darkness...any way they can do that.

wow...this got long lol whoops

wpainterw

Yes. Several things seem to be apparent. "Alcoholism" so called may be a name which relates not to a single "disease" or "illness" but to a family of related afflictions having different degrees of severity, differing etiology and differing prognosis. The classic stereotype of the "hopeless drunk" is clearly outmoded. AA is not the answer for everyone. But this does not mean that it cannot be extremely helpful, if adjusted to the needs of the individual. Other programs are available and are helpful too. Group support and participation may be particularly helpful in some cases. Although some persons may be able to drink "moderately", anything other than complete abstinence may present enormous risks for others. It is sad but true that, considering the extreme dangers posed by alcoholism and other addictions, each person must seek out the best treatment for his or her particular case. There is no one single answer for everyone.

W.

soberlicious

I believe this is crucial...

I also believe it is not typically supported.

Terminally Unique

This is correct, not all fall into that latter category.

That's quite different from what you said - "recovery is best achieved by most persons in a group setting" - a slightly milder variation of "nobody can do it alone," when the reality is that some can't do it alone. The majority do, however. They always have, and they always will.

Some may benefit from group support, but I don't think that has anything to do with how "bad" they are, it has to do with their temperament. I myself lost a job, a residence, and bunch of other things that I would rather not mention. I looked like one of those people on "intervention," and yet, I am hindered by groupism.

I remember rolling into AA, and they wanted me to "share," and I said "I'm not sharing anything." This old-timer came up to me later, and I again told him that I had no interest in sharing about my "issues," and that I just needed to know how to quit. He said "**** that sharing. Read this, call me if you have any questions," and he handed me a copy of the "Big Book" and the "12x12." Interestingly, at the time, I found his approach far more palatable.

So, for those who benefit from sitting around talking about their issues, good for them, but the notion that "most" people need recovery groups to quit is categorically false. Since this is an AA thread, I'll just mention that it is perfectly possible to recover using the "program" of AA without ever setting foot in a single meeting. This isn't touted much these days, but Bill Wilson used to brag about people who did just that.

Zencat

Irresistible, I have a deep desire to respond as an atheist. Yes random happenstance is more plausible than any supported argument of the contrary I have ever heard or read. I find it hard to believe anyone can live with the idea that, what I find as the 'yet to be discovered' is filled in with what...baseless conjecture...superstition...imagination...non-factional mind play.

There is a divide between the believers and me as an atheist that...as it has been for ages...will never close. I see faith in the unseen as weak minded and the opposite seems to ring true as they look upon me...the heathen.

I purpose a truce. One can lessen the outward contempt of apposing views by watering down ones blistering language. Not likely to happen...but its an idea.