My Faithlessness: The atheist way through AA
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Columbus, OH
Posts: 95
Yes, I've had counselors explain that each step represents a principle. The first is Surrender - to the way we have been thinking/behaving. The second is Hope - in a new way that will bring peace....etc. It appears very logical when viewed that way. A series of actions that precipitates a core change. You can research it, I'm sure, and find the general principles behind each step. Best wishes!
Re-Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado
Posts: 7,583
Ranger,
Thanks so much for posting. Although I am not an atheist I am absolutely non-religious and follow no book from any part of the world, but have read them for the wisdom they can contain and do. Also being very much at cause rather than at effect in my life, I felt the same in the end as the author. Thanks to AA and here, apart from my Docs, counselors, and friends and family support group, I am sober and almost a year into my new life. Many others here have done the same, and for those in doubt, or failing then try something new. Not in place of, but in addition to.
Thanks so much for posting. Although I am not an atheist I am absolutely non-religious and follow no book from any part of the world, but have read them for the wisdom they can contain and do. Also being very much at cause rather than at effect in my life, I felt the same in the end as the author. Thanks to AA and here, apart from my Docs, counselors, and friends and family support group, I am sober and almost a year into my new life. Many others here have done the same, and for those in doubt, or failing then try something new. Not in place of, but in addition to.
Member of SMART Recovery
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,722
Originally Posted by ADaisyifyoudo 
I am wondering, is anyone aware of any studies or clinical analyses of what's behind each of the steps from a psychological standpoint, e.g., why they work? Is it possible to get benefit from the other steps of AA even if you don't believe that you require a higher power to help you recover?
My feeling is that AA works for the people it works for. If you like AA and feel comfortable there, then go, and try to get whatever you can from it--"take what you need and leave the rest".
Perhaps, with a strong internal locus or control, all you are able to "take" is the social support. Some SMART Recovery members, for example, will go to AA meetings purely for the social support and use the SMART Recovery tools rather than the steps. The SMART Recovery tools do not involve a higher power; the focus instead is empowerment and the development of healthier thinking and behaviors.
One thing is very clear: the sobriety pathway that works for any one individual is one that suits them, one that they will follow. One size does not fit all.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Oxnard (The Nard), CA, USA.
Posts: 13,954
Its always refreshing to see the perspective of others in AA like myself. I may not believe in God, I can have a secular understanding of a HP (Helping People in AA) never the less.
I'll look forward to reading the book.
Thanks of the post Ranger.
I'll look forward to reading the book.
Thanks of the post Ranger.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 45
Thanks 
Funny, I caught that story on CNN yesterday and that's what prompted me to come back here. I wanted to have a conversation about it but if you've ever tried talking religion or recovery on CNN's site you'd know that it's unpossible. I just wound up trolling.
That said I think articles like this one would have helped me a lot when I first entered the rooms.
Funny, I caught that story on CNN yesterday and that's what prompted me to come back here. I wanted to have a conversation about it but if you've ever tried talking religion or recovery on CNN's site you'd know that it's unpossible. I just wound up trolling.
That said I think articles like this one would have helped me a lot when I first entered the rooms.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
I think that the fit of AA for a particular individual really has little to do with religiosity vs. atheism.
AA is clearly based on the idea that the individual is powerless over alcohol and that the power to recover comes from an external force. This idea works well for people who have what psychologists call an external locus of control--who tend to attribute the outcome of events to external circumstances. The philosophy of AA makes sense to such people.
Other people, though, have an internal locus of control--they tend to attribute the outcome of events to their own actions. Such individuals will naturally have a tough time integrating their experience of the world into the AA philosophy.
Locus of control is a separate issue from spirituality. An atheist can have a primarily external locus, and a religious person can have a primarily internal one.
So, an atheist who has an external locus can fit into AA, but it doesn't have a whole lot to do with spirituality, it has to do with the fact that the AA viewpoint makes sense to the person.
It follows, though, that those with an internal locus will probably not do well in AA, because, regardless of their spiritual views, the idea that recovery comes from an outside force or entity will simply not make sense to them.
AA is clearly based on the idea that the individual is powerless over alcohol and that the power to recover comes from an external force. This idea works well for people who have what psychologists call an external locus of control--who tend to attribute the outcome of events to external circumstances. The philosophy of AA makes sense to such people.
Other people, though, have an internal locus of control--they tend to attribute the outcome of events to their own actions. Such individuals will naturally have a tough time integrating their experience of the world into the AA philosophy.
Locus of control is a separate issue from spirituality. An atheist can have a primarily external locus, and a religious person can have a primarily internal one.
So, an atheist who has an external locus can fit into AA, but it doesn't have a whole lot to do with spirituality, it has to do with the fact that the AA viewpoint makes sense to the person.
It follows, though, that those with an internal locus will probably not do well in AA, because, regardless of their spiritual views, the idea that recovery comes from an outside force or entity will simply not make sense to them.
May I suggest then, that, at least based on my own personal experience (and if I have to I would say that I have more of an internal locus of control than an external one), I started a real recovery only when I was willing to admit that I didn't have all the answers, that I was not in "control" of the situation and that I needed help, in this case from the group of other recovering alcoholics. I found excessive references to "God", constant reciting of the Lord's Prayer,etc. somewhat presumptuous but I went along with it because I felt that the others in the room should be respected and I was grateful for their help in my situation. I owed so much to the group. That was my higher power.
So, having started with an "internal locus of control" I got better by realizing that I needed the experience and guidance of others. They gave me that and the least I could do was to be tolerant and understanding if they talked about "God".
W.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 45
Originally Posted by Sugah
I have no problem with the ideas in the article -- but I do wonder how she reconciles publishing under her full name with the 11th tradition.
Peace & Love,
Sugah
Peace & Love,
Sugah
May be another topic but can't we out ourselves? I have.
Om, Aum, Ohm...
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Punxsutawney/Pittsburgh
Posts: 4,797
Originally Posted by SOBARweasel
She wouldn't be able to sell her book otherwise :p
May be another topic but can't we out ourselves? I have.
May be another topic but can't we out ourselves? I have.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana
Posts: 2
One day I was sitting in the living room with my sister, I had to been about 13. Maybe 14. My Dad came into the living room looking like he wanted to say something. He got down onto his knees by the coffee table & started fiddling around with the corner of it. He looked up at us and finally asked, "Can you have morals without God?"
Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 3,550
Sugah:
Betty Ford was much admired for "outing" herself, if as I gather, you meant a person disclosing their real name. I have never understood that AA frowns upon persons disclosing their identity as alcoholics if they choose to do so. Anonymity is then merely a choice which is available to persons if they choose that. Many persons have published under their own names. See, for example, the two fine books by the late Caroline Knapp. If someone wishes to disclose his or her name then why should he be required to remain anonymous in order to participate in AA? Anonymity, like a legal privilege, should belong to the person for whom it is intended and, like a privilege, can be waived if that person so desires. We have always known Bill W. was '"Bill Wilson".
W.
Betty Ford was much admired for "outing" herself, if as I gather, you meant a person disclosing their real name. I have never understood that AA frowns upon persons disclosing their identity as alcoholics if they choose to do so. Anonymity is then merely a choice which is available to persons if they choose that. Many persons have published under their own names. See, for example, the two fine books by the late Caroline Knapp. If someone wishes to disclose his or her name then why should he be required to remain anonymous in order to participate in AA? Anonymity, like a legal privilege, should belong to the person for whom it is intended and, like a privilege, can be waived if that person so desires. We have always known Bill W. was '"Bill Wilson".
W.
bona fido dog-lover
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay area, CA
Posts: 99,781
Originally Posted by Mindfulness
One day I was sitting in the living room with my sister, I had to been about 13. Maybe 14. My Dad came into the living room looking like he wanted to say something. He got down onto his knees by the coffee table & started fiddling around with the corner of it. He looked up at us and finally asked, "Can you have morals without God?"
Of course you can.
I found the article, and her perspective, very interesting.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Jose CA
Posts: 45
*I "outed" myself on-line using a screen name just like here but I got called on the 11th because I mentioned my program in AA.
I understand the point that if I say AA is what keeps me sober and then I go out people can say "Look, AA didn't work for him" but just saying I'm a recovering alcoholic and I go to AA meetings shouldn't be a bad thing.*
Sorry, back on topic...
I understand the point that if I say AA is what keeps me sober and then I go out people can say "Look, AA didn't work for him" but just saying I'm a recovering alcoholic and I go to AA meetings shouldn't be a bad thing.*
Sorry, back on topic...
Shape-Shifting Super-Hero
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eating Tofu!
Posts: 882
Curious that he concludes we are flawed. True, humans are a mixed bag of traits to be sure, but merely to dwell on the negative, 'flawed' part strikes me as one-sided, while ignoring the more positive aspects, such as hope, joy, creativity, experiencing beauty and the arts, helping others, and so much else about us that is good. For many people who do not have a great sense of self esteem, the 'flawed' label is not at all helpful.
The term 'flawed' reminds me too much of the whole 'original sin' concept. We are neither 'flawed' nor 'perfect'; we simply are, and might be better to affirm that, as opposed to dwell on some far off ideal.
The term 'flawed' reminds me too much of the whole 'original sin' concept. We are neither 'flawed' nor 'perfect'; we simply are, and might be better to affirm that, as opposed to dwell on some far off ideal.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: in this vessel
Posts: 304
Originally Posted by onlythetruth
still others say it is nothing more than a substitute addiction or that it does not work at all but is simply a gathering place for those who would have quit anyway.
If you choose sobriety vs being forced by the courts or your spouse etc. I imagine you would be more successful. So maybe AA and other supports are the gifts that come along with that choice?
Did sobriety choose you?
Encourager In Training
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: KS
Posts: 717
Originally Posted by wpainterw
But is not the plight of the alcoholic, whether that person has an external locus or internal locus of control, that he or she may believe that "I can do it alone! Let me be! I can quit if I need to!" What I am suggesting is that alcoholism by its very nature is likely to be the result of an egotistical belief that "I'm in charge of this situation. I don't need any help! Let me alone!"
<snip>
I started a real recovery only when I was willing to admit that I didn't have all the answers, that I was not in "control" of the situation and that I needed help...
<snip>
...having started with an "internal locus of control" I got better by realizing that I needed the experience and guidance of others.
<snip>
I started a real recovery only when I was willing to admit that I didn't have all the answers, that I was not in "control" of the situation and that I needed help...
<snip>
...having started with an "internal locus of control" I got better by realizing that I needed the experience and guidance of others.
Like many analyticals (chemical engineer, here), I brought fierce independence and a strong internal LOC into my alcoholism. Now, one year and 364 days removed from my last drink, I can attest to the importance of escaping the island my nature/nurture created and my alcoholism made far more remote.
My recovery journey includes accepting I do not have all the answers and embracing the fact I still need role models. Ironically, I've found this to be one of the most empowering aspects of my sobriety. Nowadays I find joy in being comfortable with the idea that if I want to be <sober, skinny, kind, etc.> then I need to do what <sober, skinny, kind, etc.> people do.
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