FT

Okay, I read the article.

Well. I am still thrilled that the brain chemistry thing will be studied, and it is lovely that more drugs are being developed to treat the severe cravings that develop after substances have already done their damage.

However, I personally still believe that quite a bit of substance abuse is a "disease" of society and not an inherent physical disorder as may be suggested by its analogy to diabetes and cardiac disorders.

I think that most human beings are "capable" of addiction when subjected to the right combination of child abuse, malnutrition, personal losses, failures, situational stress, deprivation of various sorts, isolation whether imposed or elective, and on and on and on. Does that make us diseased individuals?

This all really bothers me. I see medical providers as viewing us a a sea of individuals requiring diagnosis and treatment. That is probably true of some of us. I worry about the physicians and other medical providers really being able to distinguish the difference.

This is all still behavioral "science", and as can be seen with the incredible list of adverse reaction and side effects that go along with ALL psych drugs (just Google them and you will see). I worry that the new "treatments" mentioned in the article will be applied to the wrong people.

It would be really cool if some of the "ills" of society would actually be the target when seeking solutions to addiction. Maybe fix what's causing the addiction problem and not calling addiction the problem itself?

FT

Terminally Unique

I do believe addiction - to chemicals, at least - has a physiological (physical) component, as anyone who has gone through withdrawal will suspect. My concern is that they want to diagnose you, and "treat" you, for life. If you get a DSM IV diagnosis of alcohol dependence on your medical record, for example, it isn't coming off, ever. Addiction may be a disease for all I know, but it obviously requires an activating agent - the drug - and I can avoid taking said drug.

With the diagnosis of having a "chronic, relapsing brain disease," however, comes a loss of self-determination, and in the eyes of others, comes a new identity. People expect you to "relapse," and may actually not believe you when you tell them that you won't drink again. My father asked me if I "had a relapse" not too long ago, for example. I don't do relapses.

FT

I agree, and a DSM IV diagnosis indeed can ruin people's lives. If you've had enough interviews in your life, you can probably recall being asked if you have ever been diagnosed with a mental issue. At least the places I have applied to have asked that question.

A brain "disease" will carry far more stigma, in my opinion, than being an alcoholic or an addict of any variety. People tend to understand and forgive social "ills" more than a medical diagnosis. Which is ironically the opposite of what is being tossed around these days.

My personal exposure to "addiction medicine" in recent months was not pretty. I looked into suboxone and discovered I had to enter the "system" in my area, after a deposit of several hundred dollars if you don't have insurance for that kind of thing. Not to mention the weekly $200 visits with the doc, and that doesn't include the shrink.

I'm sorry it has turned into that around my neck of the woods.

EricL

Kind of an unfounded statement about a whole population of people there eh?

Anecdotally I can only recall a handfull of people I've met over the years that fell into this category. But, I'm sure you're myopic assessment is spot on.

I've never had anyone with any time off the sauce trying to preach that twisted thinking to me. If anything it was the exact opposite. Taking stock of what I had done, and at times continued to do, and attempting to make it right.

EricL

Yeah, AA has ruined countless lives... asking people to consider openly a solution which thus far they hadn't considered... That is pretty rude.

While I agree that there is no single method of recovery, I have to agree that much of the failure of any program comes from the individual being so latched onto a world outlook, or whatever, that so far hasn't done **** for them except get them to the point where they are shopping around for solutions to their alcoholism.

Dee74

I refer everybody back - again - to rule 4 that Anna posted before.

I'm not going to bother pulling anymore posts from this thread - it's getting ridiculous.

Any more insults or pot shots and we'll simply shut it down.

Everybody here has the capability to operate by the rules.
It depends on you guys.

D

wpainterw

I have been logging on to this website for only a little over a year and for the most part have been singularly impressed with the insights of its large body of contributors. However, I am saddened to see that whenever a discussion turns towards the so called "disease" concept of alcoholism, tempers start to fray and sometimes the discussion becomes personal. Would it not be better to say that the only thing an individual alcoholic really "knows" is what happened in the course of his or her drinking and what, hopefully, led to his or her recovery. Beyond that, when one tries to speculate about what alcoholism "is" or what is the "best" way to do something about it, one invites controversy. Would it not be better to stick with "This is what helped me; it may or may not be of help to you." and leave it at that?

W.

stanleyhouse

No response please!
I shared what was available. I do not understand why it needed to be argued against. Thank goodness I, and the newcomers didn't see what was written after the post. The whole whole scene is rediculous. If people see you being a jerk, they are not going to think you are healthy and strong in recovery. They're not saying, "hey, I want to be like that bully."
SH

Murray4x5

Somewhere on SR there's a link to a video. It's a portion of a documentary about addiction and is about some monkeys that were introduced to a tropical island. The monkeys regularly raid the beachside resorts, some choosing fruit drinks, some have an occasional alcoholic drink, and some drink till they are falling down drunk, every time.

When the monkey population is divided on a percentage basis into teetotallers, occasional, and chronic drinkers, the percentages match those in the human population.

Could this be evidence that once you strip away the infinite layers which motivate any of us to be alcoholics, that at the very core of it all, is a physiological mechanism?

Terminally Unique

EricL,

You must know what I meant, given the context of my previous post. I was referring to the often-repeated feeling people speak of, which generally amounts to "when I learned I have a disease, it was as if a great burden was lifted." I even quoted Marty Mann's story from the second edition of the Big Book as an example. No need to go on the defense over it.

Itchy

Stanley,
Yes I agree with you.

W painter,
I have been here and happily sober for 9 months and have used a bit of everything recovery wise, and none of them ruined me or got me damaged in any way. These recovery items for me include but are not limited to an in hospital, 7 day doctor supervised detox in a VA hospital by my choice, AA on my own for the first three months with no sponsor or step work, just face to face support, SR from day one out of the hospital, counseling with ex alcohol abusers, family and friend's support. W I pretty much hung out in newcomers, to support others trying to recover here, in gratitude for my solid and now PAWS free sobriety. This was my first experience with this kind of reaction.

I am glad to see our moderators on top of it, and realizing that an interesting to me and innocent thread I started has been turned into something I never intended. However that doesn't mean I am going to change anything. I will be here doing what I can to support my fellow problem drinkers whatever label or recovery oprograms they choose to use. And continue to get support from them as well.

I am all for whatever works for you, whoever is reading this. I also hope that people don't become afraid of seeing a doc especially while in detox if needed because of some of the comments here.

raindancer11

Itchy, I'm a newcomer (ish) and your post has certainly helped me. I enjoyed reading the article and especially appreciate the compassion in your tone.

Sometimes posts on SR remind me of my kids. No matter what the rules are, how everything is arranged to prevent disagreements, it still happens. After all, we are human.

Itchy

Thanks raindancer! I needed to hear that.

Yes you are so right. I like to say that some folks take adulthood too seriously and think that in leaving the child-ish behind they also have to leave behind their child-like sense of wonder. They throw the baby out with the bathwater as it were. Others keep one or the other. I kept the child-like sense of wonder. Sounds like you did too.

You aren't too far behind me as I started in September and will have 10 months one week from today! Have a great day, and hang in there raindancer. I look forward to seeing your posts on the forums here.

Soberpotamus

I like how Itchy's post has prompted such varying opinions and ideas here. Isn't that healthy and good for the advancement of knowledge? I'd say so. I'm not condoning insults & flaming, of course.

Itchy, once you post something you just can never tell where people are going to take it... right? So, I commend you for starting this thread. I've enjoyed it, and it's made me think and consider some weighty issues. It did us all good.

If anyone took the time to post here, then they surely can handle how this post has evolved...

Terminally Unique

For the record, Itchy, I don't have anything against you, nor do I regret that you posted this. Addiction and recovery, and therefore articles such as these, are necessarily political in nature, with far wider implications than most people realize, however. The New York Times would not be putting this on their front page were that not the case.

Itchy

Thanks Jennie.
I thought the article was very promising for the future too.

Fenris

The impression I've taken away from reading this thread is that the people here are passionate about recovery. Of course, there's a fine line between intense debate/analysis of a subject and flaming or insults, but I try to keep in mind that despite the benefits of interacting with a supportive group of people who share similar struggles and experiences, recovery is often an intensely personal and individual journey, and many tend to be fiercely protective of their paths and philosophy (rightly so, I think). Personally, I take a very pragmatic view of recovery: if standing on your head reciting old Beatles' lyrics keeps you sober, I say go for it. I'll even hold your feet up. I try to take what works for me and leave behind what doesn't, in the hopes that someone else will pick it up and find it useful.

Learning to respect viewpoints that I don't necessarily agree with (in all things, not just recovery) is one of the benefits I've (somewhat) acquired from my personal path to recovery. Thank you Itchy for starting this thread, and thank you AVRT and Jennie (and others) for your thoughts on the topic.

--Fenris.

Ranger

Itchy - Loved the article. Thanks much!

Respectful debate is certainly helpful for certain SR members. But, I believe perspective is found in observing the preponderance of posts clearly illustrate this portion of the membership is but a sliver.

When engaged in debate it can be easy to lose sight of SR's status as a ship in the night for literally dozens if not hundreds of lurkers who pass through each week.

Many have just begun to reluctantly accept the idea they are alcoholic.

Many are researching recovery programs and are on the lookout for bad experiences and/or disparaging remarks that can be used to rationalize continued inaction.

Many are desperate and hungry for hope.

It is our collective responsbility to remain mindful of what we are feeding them.

Boleo

I know of one in the fellowship. He works in a Rehab facility and is also a narcotics addict himself. When ever he attends an AA or NA meeting, he never mentions his title or says where he works. He tries to remain anonymous within meetings.

I like to go out to a restaurant with him and other meeting members after a meeting where he speaks a little more candidly.

raindancer11

Itchy, great words about child-like wonder! Wonderful that you are so close to 10 months. Even though, I joined in Nov, I recently started again so I am at 22 days. In any case, today we are all in the same place...sober