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Insanity

Old 07-09-2011, 09:00 AM
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Insanity

The definition of insanity in most recovery programs is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

So I am guesing thats when a person keeps going out thinking that it will be different this time. They can handle it, just one wont hurt and so on.

So when a person goes into recovery over and over again expecting different results. Doing the same program or a different one. Isnt that basiclly the same thing?

Interested to see what you all think.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:17 AM
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I always tried recovery again and again (after a relapse) hoping for the same result: sobriety. Do you mean perhaps that people expect different behavior of themselves with each fresh attempt at recovery? I can see that.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:25 AM
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Going into recovery to begin with is a change in the pattern of addiction. Even though it's just a start, it is still an alteration in the pattern.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:37 AM
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Doing the same thing..whatever that may be over and over expecting different results...

Going back over and over or going back into recovery over and over..Keep coming back.
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Old 07-09-2011, 09:39 AM
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Okay well the only way to answer that is to tell a little bit of my story.

I first went to AA when I was around 15 and I had been drunk and in a stolen car when i got arrested. I got sent to my 1st treatment center AA back then was a joke and I didn't want any part of it.

Years later by now and I was in and out of detox, jails, treatment centers, and the streets. I spent over 20 years in and out of AA & NA.

Each time I would relapse, I would come back in stay for awhile, life again would become to unbearable and I would use, but each time I came back I never did what was suggested.

They told me to get a sponsor & call that sponsor. They told me to get a home group do service, do the steps.

Each time I did exactly the same thing and then wondered why I kept going back out.

I now have a little over 7 years and I have a home group, I have done the steps more than once, and I don't go into meetings whining about how my life is so messed up and being a victim all the time.

My best thinking got me to where I was so I needed someone else to do it for me. I also needed to get in touch w/a HP who I trusted to be there to protect and love me.

Without any of that I kept the insanity going by relapsing over & over again.
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Old 07-09-2011, 10:23 AM
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Well, if you go back into the same program, but don't DO anything different, yeah, one would reasonably expect the same results.

OTOH, if you go back into the same program, and examine what it was that you missed the previous times, make a diligent effort to dot ALL the i's and cross ALL the t's and consider how you might have been less than honest with yourself the first time through, then I think one could reasonably expect different results.
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Old 07-09-2011, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Aysha View Post
The definition of insanity in most recovery programs is doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.

So I am guesing thats when a person keeps going out thinking that it will be different this time. They can handle it, just one wont hurt and so on.

So when a person goes into recovery over and over again expecting different results. Doing the same program or a different one. Isnt that basiclly the same thing?

Interested to see what you all think.

Doing the same thing..whatever that may be over and over expecting different results... Going back over and over or going back into recovery over and over..Keep coming back.
Great topic, since I have some experience here. I am assuming you are referring to the people that "relapse" over and over, and yet keep coming back to the same "program" and doing the same thing over and over again, right?

Let's not sugarcoat things. We've all seen them, the people going in and out of the rooms for YEARS, often DECADES, and yet with well under a year sober. I was the king of the 30-day chip, got a few 90 day ones, a few six month chips, etc, and I certainly wasn't alone in this. They would call these the "constitutionally incapables," as DayTrader illustrated in this post regarding someone who relapsed after ten years:

Originally Posted by DayTrader View Post
I'll tell ya this Kelly.....he may have had 10 years since his last drink but the guy never got truly sober....

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.......... they are (sic) incapable of being honest with themselves.......incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty...."

Every time you go back, it's always the same. Did you leave something out of your 4th Step? Maybe you were less than honest? Maybe you didn't fully accept Step 1? You need to concede powerlessness and go back and work the steps again, start your 90-in-90 again, do more service work, etc, etc. LexieCat's post above is a case in point.

So, to answer your question, which I also asked myself eventually, is:
YES! - THAT IS INSANITY.
Somewhat by accident, I ran across a book at Barnes and Noble titled "Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey. I wasn't expecting much, since I had read a whole slew of "recovery" books before, and not one of them had anything in them about how to actually stay quit, but to my surprise, this one did. It described something called "Addictive Voice Recognition Technique" or AVRT, hence my handle on here.

Since then, I have been sober as a judge, although I did still hang around AA for a long time after that, passing along a copy of that book to other constitutionally incapables. This didn't go over too well in general, but many of those people have since stopped relapsing and have thanked me for letting them know about a different approach. I always tell them that there is no need to thank me, and to just spread the word to others in need.

My advice is, if you've been doing something over and over again and have gotten nowhere, don't listen to the people who offer the same solution and tell you that YOU are the problem, because you may simply have a temperament that requires a different approach. You can't fit a square peg into a round hole, so to speak.

TRY SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD - UP TO AND INCLUDING A DIFFERENT "PROGRAM"

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Old 07-09-2011, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Aysha View Post

So when a person goes into recovery over and over again expecting different results. Doing the same program or a different one. Isnt that basiclly the same thing?
Da! Most people who go into revery give it a 100% effort for about 2 weeks then start slacking off little by little till they relapse. I did it myself about a dozen times.

The hardest thing for me to "Do different" was to accept the idea that I needed a daily program of action that I could, should and would do for the rest of my life.

Learning to "Do" the work took a great deal of time and effort. However, once I made it a part of my daily routine it became almost effortless.
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Aysha View Post
Doing the same thing..whatever that may be over and over expecting different results...

Going back over and over or going back into recovery over and over..Keep coming back.
I'm thinking of the AA slogan I heard for years: Just keep coming back... It works.
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:07 AM
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I don't know if I've ever really understood this quote myself. But if you take 'insanity' broadly to be making irrational decisions, addiction definitely affects rational judgment and impairs your control. My thoughts and behavior were in no way rational when I was at my worst, with all the ways I convinced myself it was okay or a good idea to drink/use again.

I never learned to 'manage' it, most people learn from their mistakes which cause them pain but I didn't. Intellectually I knew that what I was doing wasn't good for me but I still kept putting myself through the same thing. Most people learn from the mistakes that cause them bad consequences or pain but I didn't for a long time. It can apply to a whole range of dysfunctional relationships, cycles or behaviors.

Last time I went into recovery after a long series of relapses, I think I'd pretty much given up having any expectations, I just tried to focus on each day as it came. It may have helped relieve some of the pressure I'd felt previously though. I was willing to try anything and tried to be more open minded and receptive to people who knew what they were talking about, as I couldn't seem to trust my own thoughts or judgment at the time. Very glad now I didn't give up on recovery even with all the ups and downs along the way.
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:44 AM
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(((Trish))) - My recovery is constantly changing, as I learn new things about myself, go through different challenges, etc. I've learned that not one thing works every time, so I have to try something else, still staying clean as a priority.

Because I'm dealing with major codie issues, too (which I believe I self medicated for into addiction), it's an ongoing learning experience.

The only things I consistently do? Pray, and stay clean.

Love, hugs, and prayers,

Amy
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by michelle01 View Post
I don't know if I've ever really understood this quote myself. But if you take 'insanity' broadly to be making irrational decisions, addiction definitely affects rational judgment ...
To those of us who know the secret handshake -
"Keep coming back" really means:

"YOU JUST DON'T GET IT YET"

...LOL!
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Old 07-09-2011, 11:54 AM
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Watching what relapse does to people reinforces my opinion that picking up isn't an option for me.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:06 PM
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Ddin't see this duplicate thread until after I posted in the other one so I'll duplicate my answer here too.

In the recovery community that is exactly what we mean, the folks that won't do whatever it takes to get sober. Not the folks that are using and expecting life to be blissful.

Folks who try to quit alone, not tell anybody, won't go to AA, won't talk to a pastoral counselor, won't admit themselves for detox or rehab, won't seek private counseling of free clinic counseling, won't tell friends, and last but not least, expect to continue to party and go to bars and clubs sober, and fail repeatedly are who we mean.

That list is not exclusive of any other things people can choose from to develop their own recovery plan, and then work that plan. Nor does one have to do all of them, or any of them. Just not keep doing the same things that haven't worked for them over and over.

People who repeatedly do the same one thing or two things that haven't worked for them to get sober before over and over are exactly what is meant by that.

The ones who make it practice "unconditional sobriety." There is nothing that is off limits or that they are not willing to do to get and stay sober. If they fail they do something different to make it.

They will re-examine their own premises. They will seek face to face help if lacking that has already failed. They will do whatever it takes. Change or drop friends. Leave abusive others, just say no. Whatever it takes.

Sobriety with conditions before sober are easy to spot. "I could never go to AA because then everybody will know" for example. Hm. Don't get me wrong AA is not for everyone and no longer a part of my sobriety daily. But I went and took what I could use and left the rest. Same with my doc and family and friends.

When you read the constantly recovering and relapsing people you are reading us. For we have been them and understand them. So don't read my above as non-empathetic. Some folks aren't ready yet, so we are gentle with them, as we were treated here when we started out. But when asked we will answer as truthfully as we can within the bounds of not being hurtful, and try to do so with grace. The same grace that helped us along. When people were graceful with us.

But we had to be ready, to do whatever it took. We had to accept unconditional sobriety. To never drink again. Regardless of what life throws at us. People will grow old and die. Illness will come into our lives whether our own the ones we love. Fortune will smile on us or not sometimes. And we will not drink because that does not help. It only insulates us from it temprarily as well as the good things like love, relationships, family, etc for those of us lucky enough to have those still. And to get those for those of us who allowed alcohol to throw those away.

Unconditional sobriety is the only one that works for me. What we do to get there varies, but never happens with conditional sobriety.

Hope that helps.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:06 PM
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Does anyone know if there is an age group that AA works best with? Could that be a part of the problem in as much as most younger people who aren't at the end of their ropes just wouldn't be that receptive especially if they don't have much of a spiritual or religious inclination.

That's not directed at you Aysha, I'm not saying you're not at the end of your rope.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Does anyone know if there is an age group that AA works best with? Could that be a part of the problem in as much as most younger people who aren't at the end of their ropes just wouldn't be that receptive especially if they don't have much of a spiritual or religious inclination.
I don't know about age, but I do know that most of the rehab facilities that use 12-Step facilitation have written in the admission contract (which few read) something along the lines of "be advised that those with an atheistic inclination may react negatively to treatment," usually in very small font.

Their legal department is obviously doing their job, which is to protect against liability, but if you take the time to read the contract, checking if they have a disclaimer on atheists is a very good way to tell if they use the 12-Steps when they won't admit it up front. Not many people know this "trick," though.
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Old 07-09-2011, 12:45 PM
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I only brought this questio up because I am reading 'Beautiful Boy' By David Sheff. A memoir of a fathers journey through his sons addiction with meth and how he didnt understand why his sone just wasnt getting it after countless rehabs and many times having years clean before he finally remained clean.

He brought this question up in the book and it made sense to me.
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Old 07-09-2011, 02:02 PM
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Trish, I think it's about changing your mind, not necessarily changing your program.

You need the shift in thinking that will make you succeed in recovery, regardless of the program you choose.
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Old 07-09-2011, 03:19 PM
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I agree with Anna - it's a shift in attitude and perception regardless of what method or programme.

I tried to quit at least once a week for 15 years.

Back then the parameters of 'quitting' for me were 'I'll stop for a while and then return to drinking every so often because I'll have learned control'...

eventually it became 'ok I can't drink...I won't drink but I'm not changing my life/friends who I am or anything else either'

Looking back, both of those were insane ideas and both doomed to failure.

So I kept drinking until I nearly died and I ended up here.

Once I accepted that I really needed to change, and change more than my drinking, if I wanted to live...

once I put my faith and trust in the guys here, put my fear to one side and determined that this recovery lark would actually be the making of me....it all became a whole new ballgame for me.

It wasn't the same as anything I'd ever done before

D
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Old 07-09-2011, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by AVRT View Post

"be advised that those with an atheistic inclination may react negatively to treatment,"
"be advised that those with an ascetic inclination may react positively to treatment,"

LOL!
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