JohnBarleycorn

The standard explanation is that AA is "Spiritual not Religious," but in my opinion, the program of AA has distinct religious influences. I would recommend, however, that if you are really interested in knowing what AA is about, reading the main text, "Alcoholics Anonymous," which is available online here:

Big Book Online Fourth Edition

You may also want to read a secondary text, the "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions," which is available online here:

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions

[AA Literature on the official AA web site linked with permission of Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc.]

In reviewing the aforementioned literature in the course of the case of GRIFFIN v. COUGHLIN (which was not overturned by the United States Supreme Court on appeal), The New York Supreme court observed :

Silkworth.net has an articled titled "Spiritual not Religious" which explains the history of the distinction in more detail. Essentially, though, the program and AA fellowship grew out of the Oxford Movement which found its roots in Classic Liberal Protestantism.

The original manuscript of the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" had a more overt emphasis on this Protestantism than the subsequent published editions, but it was edited to make it less "denominational" and more accessible to Catholics, Agnostics, and, presumably, Atheists as well.

For those interested in this editing process, Hazelden Press has published "The Book That Started It All: The Original Working Manuscript of Alcoholics Anonymous", which not only provides the original manuscript of Bill Wilson's first draft of Alcoholics Anonymous, but also details the changes that were made.

EmeraldRose

Welcome Sunn...I feel your pain. Where is that line that we cross from drinking too much to thinking we are alcoholics? It's within us. That line is found when we have lost control.

I was drinking before noon, too -and lost my job. It creeps up on us and we think we're ok...always. We always think we can stop, we always think it's not that bad. But in reality...we need to just stop and say yes, I am an alcoholic. You will get to that point where you can openly admit it to yourself. That is the most important step. Now I will willingly tell just about anyone if they asked.
As far as AA and the religous thing...you can go in thinking you need to worship a bar of soap if they think that will help you recover. You don't have to believe in god. As others say, it is spiritual. I believe I have an inner power, an inner strength that promotes my thought to recovery. I believe that everything you do is for a reason...and there is a time and place for everything. Time was quite essential to my recovery. Patience is key. Learning to listen to your gut. I believe that positive thoughts create positive actions resulting in positive results.
The AA group I go to are 'more religous'. They say the Lords Prayer, etc. I feel that part of recovery is respecting others and their thoughts, feelings and issues -going along with what the consenus does is fine as long as I can remain sober.

Just remember there is no better place for you to be in the universe except where you are right this second. You are here for a reason.

Dee74

Before we get into another incendiary debate about whether AA is religious or not...let me bring it back to the OP.

What we think really doesn't matter Sunn....It's what you think that matters.

Go along and check it out, or check out SMART, or any one of a number of groups:

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...formation.html

There really is, in my opinion, something for everyone

D

Sunn

Thank you guys. I've said this on like ten forums tonight but thank you. This realization has hit me really hard. You're right. All of you are right. I have a problem. I need to get some help. I need to see a doctor and I need to be in AA or a related program. I just feel so damn delicate right now. And, I feel stupid that I feel delicate. I feel like I should just be able to say that I'm an alcoholic and that I need some damn help but I can't. Not outloud and not to people who know me. Why is that? Do I think they'll never forget it? Do I think they'll never trust me? Always judge me? That somehow it makes me irresponsible or weak? I don't even know. I just know that I can't say it to them.

What made you guys finally say you were done? I guess that's what people call rock bottom. What was your rock bottom? I just need to know that I'm not the first person to be here. As far as rock bottoms go, sitting in your living room and being drunk and depressed and playing with your dog but knowing things should be better is pretty damn awesome, but I don't want to be like this. I want to be happy and sober and healthy and involved in the world around me and hopeful. How do I get there?

Sunn

And to Emerald and Dee, thank you especially. I keep wondering if I'm only questioning the religiousity of AA because I want to look for an excuse not to go.

Granted, I don't and will never believe in a god, but it shouldn't keep me from doing something that helps get me healthy. I need to look at the bigger picture and not rationalize.

Dee74

I don't believe bottoms need necessarily be events...I just knew - in my bones - I couldn't live my drunken life any longer...

I wasn't sure I could live a sober life either - but it was pretty the only option left.
I'm glad I worked through the fear and made the leap

Support's important - and you'll find that here no matter what else you decide to do

D

topspin

Sunn,
Good call on putting aside any preconcieved notions about what will work , or not work.

Hope you're fortunate enough to find some effective Face to Face support somewhere.

It's dynamic !

JohnBarleycorn

If it makes you feel any better, there are people who can and do say they are "an alcoholic" but have no intention whatsoever of quitting.

You realize that you have a problem, and that you need to do something about it. Focus on that. Right now, that is more important than admitting you are an alcoholic.

If you don't do something about it, your problems will very likely get much worse. Trust me, it never gets better, only worse.

newwings

Your question is why I posted my 'confirmation list' my other thread, Sunn. I totally understand how you feel THIS VERY MOMENT. We all do. It's horrible, it's shaming, it's humbling, it's shocking. It makes you feel sick to your very core. It shakes the very foundation of your world, and how you view yourself in it. But we all have to do it - that moment. That's the start of a huge journey which has the richest reward ahead, you can't even begin to imagine it. I think you are ready. Take a few days for it to sink in, and maybe make a list of your own. It's tough. I'm cringing when I read it, but I needed to see it, and feel the feelings I have when I read my brutal self honesty. Because it's past, it's not so awful than when it was actually happening.

PM me anytime if you need help or some uplifting words. I'm on here a lot! We all are!

Sunn

Thank you so much, guys. And, newwings especially.

I want to believe it. I want to think that this realization will make me feel better and lead to me getting healthy but I'm scared of trying and failing. I'm scared that I'll try to get sober and I won't and then I'll feel even worse about myself and my drinking. I know that everyone must go through some form of this and that it's not the new but it doesn't make me feel better.

What I've decided today is that if a post makes me tear up a little then there's some personal truth to it. Newwings, your posts have made me tear up a lot. I don't know if it's because you're soooooo very close to new soberity or what, but your posts mean a lot to me and your insight does as well. Thank you.

michelle01

This is a very contentious issue, however I do feel it's a legitimate concern. I think that AA should acknowledge their religious roots, but these days it is very open to interpretation. Nobody at AA should pressure you into a belief you don't uphold. It is not compulsory to join in prayers, as far as I know. The best thing to do is probably not to get into ethical arguments with others, just leave it at a simple no you don't want to be involved, that should be acceptable. Everyone at AA is entitled to their own beliefs. Focus on what is constructive to recovery.

Many people AA take exception to the Higher Power/God concept, as it is so closely aligned with the traditional Supreme Deity concept in religion. I can understand how that would be a genuine stumbling block for people with traumatic religious experiences in the past. However, that is also open to interpretation nowadays.

I knew that I could not defeat alcoholism on my own, I needed help and support, what you define as your Higher Power could be the support group itself rather than God.

The steps process IMO does share some resemblances with quite a few traditional religions. The surrender etc - in many ways it's like a 'rebirth' process from my gist of it.

I didn't use AA much, I saw a CBT counselor who was not aligned with AA, he never discussed anything spiritual, he never used the term 'alcoholic'. However, he himself described the process of recovery as being like a 'reprogramming' process.

I'm not an expert on AA but I was confused by this in the beginning myself and you can get a lot of heated exchange from both sides, I try to be neutral on the topic. I'm not in AA, I am religious but keep my views on that to the religious forums.

I hope that posting a link here is okay, I found it a very good overall explanation Your First AA Meeting<

EmeraldRose

Any excuse will do when you aren't sure you want to do something. I went because I wanted to the first time. I didn't care who was there, what they did, etc. I needed to get there -and fast. I was so excited to go...it was just such a relief like a weight had been lifted.
I have a problem and am taking action against it. I thought it to be a rewarding experience.
You can talk yourself out of anything you don't really want to do. But where will you be?

CarolD

I just left an AA celebration dinner and meeting.
We had April anniversaries to celebrate.
One member had 1 year...and one with 5 another 8
2 of us have 22 years.......one has 27 years.
One is an Agnostic..1 a church goer and the rest
of us are not active in any religion.

75 people were there...probably 20 shared and only
1 mentioned a specific religion...by saying
"I'm a lasped RC"

Yes...we opened with the Serenity Prayer and ended
with the Lords Prayer. No one cares if you choose not to join in.
You never have to participate in anything that makes you antsy
but out of respect for others during those few minutes...remaining quiet is best..

I do hope you will check out AA...it's an awesome way to enjoy sobriety

Zencat

As an active alcoholic you are experiencing the symptoms of alcoholism:
All that can stop by having a long term and daily addiction treatment plan. I too experienced loss of control and my life became unmanageable with active alcoholism. A good treatment made my life manageable again. Having peer support, like being active here is a good component of a treatment plan. Also by giving AA a shot, that can offer accountability, peer support and a recovery plan.

Sunn

I'm scared of having accountability. I'm sure that's because I'm not yet to the point where I can say I'm an alcoholic. I feel like if I said it and then I can't fix it, or even try to fix it, then I'm somehow a worse person than I am just being an alcoholic and not trying to fix it. That's weird, isn't it? Who thinks that trying to fix their problems is worse than just having those problems? That's sort of a rhetorical question, but I do actually think it's weird that I think that. Is that just more rationalizing? Am I just thinking that because it's a way I can say it's mentally easier for me to keep drinking? It protects my fragile ego from being judged about my efforts in bettering myself? Jesus, where did this inferiority complex come from? I had a great childhood. My parents are great. I never needed or wanted anything. Why do I feel like trying to be better and failing is such a big deal?

JohnBarleycorn

Sunn,

It sounds to me like you know very well what you have to do. It also sounds like you are looking for any excuse not to do it, so I am going to quote something you wrote, then cut right to the point:

Forget about semantics. Forget about whether you are "an alcoholic" or not. It doesn't matter. From what you wrote, you are drinking in the morning, at lunch, and all day, and it is causing you to suffer. Do you want to go on like this?

There is only one question that you need to answer:

What is your present plan, Sunn, for the future use of alcohol? Do you plan to drink again in this lifetime or do you not?

Once you answer that, everything else will be easier.

Sunn

Thank you, John, for being brutally honest. I need it. Especially since I can't yet admit to my friends and family that I am an alcoholic. I know I am. I've spent 24 hours here and read a bunch of posts and posted myself and after the replies I've gotten from people telling what they went through I know I am. I just can't admit it. I mean, I can admit it to you guys and I think that's because of the anonymity. I just can't admit it in my day-to-day life. I want people to tell me what you're telling me because I think it'll help me make that step to telling others that I have a drinking problem and doing something about it.

You're probably right. It didn't occur to me but I see what you're saying. What I wrote does sound like I'm trying, yet again, to rationalize my drinking. I've been amazed at how much rationalizing I've been doing on my posts but you guys have been backing me up and pointing it out and I see it after I read your replies. And I thank you for it.

Nikkipoo

Sunn, I too had a tough time excepting the fact that I was an alcoholic (even saying the word) and getting help. I understand your fear of being judged. I struggle with that still even though only a few "know".
The difficulty was that I knew I wouldn't be able to have a drink for the rest of my life once I made that admission/commitment.

At first, I drank on only special occasions, or in social settings or at a nice restaurant, then I began to use it more and more to relax or relieve stress and anxiety or loneliness or frustration. Eventually, I would open a bottle and tell myself that I was only going to have one glass; the one became two etc. until I found myself opening a 2nd bottle!
I couldn't imagine life without enjoying a glass of wine. I loved my wine....too much. That's why it took me so long to get help. I knew it would be the hardest thing I would ever have to overcome. Finally, the humiliation of having my adult children and husband confront me as well as good friends asking me during phone calls if I had been drinking drove me to make the decision to get help. I love them all too much to lose their respect and I feared for my health.

I have learned that alcoholism is an insidious disease. You don't know you are becoming addicted until you are already there in the middle stages. Even though I have family history on both sides and 3 brothers who are now dead because of alcohol related medical issues, I still didn't see it coming.

That 1st visit to a doctor (I didn't know him) was the most difficult thing I have ever done in my life. When I got home that afternoon, I wanted a glass of wine. My rationale was that I deserved it because of the stressful situation I had just gone through. I didn't drink that night or ever since that 1st doctor vist. It hasnt been easy at all, but I am so happy now that I finally did it. I am still working on it every day.
With the support of my family and friends and an occasional AA meeting I hope I never relapse. If I do, I know now that they will be there again for me.

As others have posted yesterday and today, it is not a good idea to try detoxing on your own. Please see a doctor first if you decide to "try to fix it".

I hope my story helps.

Dee74

Accountability was a big one for me too, Sunn.

I didn't want to be different, and I didn't want to change my life - I thought, like many drinkers, my only problem was I drank too much.

I tried for years to fix my problem - to somehow become a normal drinker - without anyone knowing.

It wasn't possible for me. If you want change you need to change, I think.

I was trying to do things with one hand tied behind my back really.
D

Sunn

Thank you, Dee and Nikki. I'm looking up doctors now. And, I'm looking up AA meetings in my area. I just feel...terrible...horrible...useless...stupid...la zy...I don't know. The thought of making this public, of telling people...I don't know, is it more rationalizing? Am I saying that I'm afraid of telling people because it's another reason to hide it and, probably, hide my drinking? Does it even matter what I'm saying at this point? Should I just think of myself like a schizophrenic or a manic depressive and just realize that I've not going to look a my drinking in a rational way right now and I need to have people do that for me right now?

I know. Even these questions are superficial right now. None of this matters beyond me getting help. I just think that maybe, just maybe, if I understand why I feel this way then it might be easier not to feel this way.