franie

Oh and for me therapy is what has worked and is still working - long may it remain so.

Best
Franie

FrothyJay

Thanks Franie, and your thoughts are always welcome. Thanks also for reminding us that our egos get in the way.

WakeUp

I have two separate thoughts, take them and if you can get a little nugget of wisdom out of them, great.

1. Trying to describe the spiritual part of AA is like trying to describe the wet part of the ocean.

And speaking of oceans...

2. Faith, religion, spirituality, whatever, I'm not going to start with definitions, is like this:
There are brooks, streams, rivers that all flow into the ocean. All truth comes from many different sources, but flow into one true source.

There you have it, grasshopper.

bellakeller

Just answering the original question, "What is the deal with the mention of god in the steps?"

My answer is - I don't know. I didn't write the steps. But I know that if I had written the steps I'd still be drunk.

KarenElaine

I got a lot out of what Frothy Jay wrote:
"In short, are you out of options?

If you are, you might then open yourself to a process-- the 12 steps-- that can lead us to a higher power of our own conception. We don't get it by praying, we get it by looking at ourselves-- doing an inventory-- and seeing just how fear and resentment run our lives. We get it by writing, sharing it with another person, and then making amends to those whom we've harmed.

This entire process is what connects us with a "god" that can solve our problems."

I realize I've put too much on going to meetings and praying and not any into actually working the steps. That's an important, probably life saving, discovery for me. Thanks!

p.s. Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to quote the way everyone else does.

Anna

Some posts were removed due to bashing a program and bickering between members.

Stay focused on the OP and original post.

JohnBarleycorn

OK, I will grant that I am giving my own interpretation of the text, and others may have different interpretations.

That said, though, The Big Book, even just the first 164 pages, make references to us humans being the "children of a living Creator" (capital C), as for example, on page 28 (There Is a Solution):

From "We Agnostics" page 57:

From "How it Works" page 68:

From "Into Action" page 75:

Now, to me, "our Creator," particularly a "living Creator" implies two things.

First, the Creator created us, not the other way around. Second, it cannot be inanimate, as in a coke can, a radiator, a light bulb, or a chair.

Granted, under some belief systems, such as the Pantheism of Spinoza, the Universe and G-d are one and the same.

There are also references to "infinite G-d" and HIS role for us, though, implying that said Creator must have a will, and a role for us.

Again, From "How It Works" page 68:

And, finally, the "Real Purpose" is clearly spelled out in "Into Action" on Page 77:

At the very least, I think that any "Higher Power" must satisfy the properties implied in Step 3 (allowing us to turn our will and our lives over to its care), Step 7 (be willing and able to remove our shortcomings), and Step 11 (being receptive to prayer and being capable of having a will that can possibly be revealed to us).

To me, having read the Bible and other things such, as "The Imitation of Christ" by Thomas A. Kempis, I can clearly see the Christian influences in the text itself. I don't need anyone to point that out to me.

If others can reconcile the text with some other interpretation, so be it, but I, personally, don't believe in insulting people's intelligence or their existing religion by telling them that a coke can or radiator or light bulb or "anything" can be their Creator.

For one thing, an atheist doesn't believe he or she has a creator, so I would not tell them that they need to start believing that they do.

For another, a man of religious faith and conviction may not like the suggestion that a coke can or a radiator is their Creator.

Some may have noticed, for example, that I always use the spelling "G-d" for the Supreme Being, as do most Orthodox Jews, recognizing the need for circumspect usage.

I won't quote from the text, but "Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions" is pretty clear on what is expected of atheists in the program. I would encourage anyone to go ahead and read it for themselves and draw their own conclusions, however.

Also, for the record, I most certainly have recovered.

Note: All quotes from the book "Alcoholics Anonymous" are from the First Edition.

Mark75

Well the OP asked, and there is some decent dialog going.

Good points John... Which is why, while I truly feel the big book was inspired, I don't spend a lot of time analyzing every word and since I am comfortable with my own understanding of G-d, and I notice you capitalize the G, I don't worry too much about a word for word interpretation.

I guess it's how willing one is to utilize AA's program of recovery... And whether we keep our eyes on the end result... A spiritual transformation and recovery from alcoholism.

Edit... There was nothing in the big book that says to use a coke can or door knob as a higher power.

susanlauren

JohnBarleyCorn: "Also, for the record, I most certainly have recovered."

How did you recover John? What did you do? Susan

SwanSong

Thanks for this.

My biggest issue with a lot of what I was reading in this entire thread has to do with living proof.

I know, on a very intimate personal level, at least 5 individuals who are members of AA. Sobriety lengths of 2 to over 40 years. They have happy, contented quality sobriety.

These individuals are some of the most helpful and outreaching members of the fellowship where I live. They are all atheists and yet have still been able to find a conception of God that allows them to live a spiritual life that has enabled them to become recovered members of alcoholics anonymous.

Who am I to tell anyone their conception of God, be it the human spirit, that unsuspecting inner resource etc. is wrong or inadequate and that they aren't doing AA the right way?

They live on a spiritual basis, they are atheists, they have recovered from alcoholism and they try to carry the message to others who still suffer. As Mark was so kind to point out, it's the results that matter.

My higher power is a very personal thing to me and does not coincide with almost anything I've read in this entire thread - aside from two ideas- that it enables me to live on a spiritual basis and has solved my problem.

I appreciate the fact that so many have very strong opinions about what the word God means with regard to AA. But I encounter living breathing proof on a near daily basis that one can recovery using AA and not believe in God in the traditional sense of the word. And that spirituality is not the same as religion as there are happy, helpful, recovered atheists in my AA life and I am very happy to have them - it only furthers my idea that the realm of spirituality is indeed broad and all inclusive.

Anna

Again, some posts were removed that were inflammatory and inappropriate.

Keep on topic and follow the rules or the thread will be closed.

JohnBarleycorn

I suppose, as with many things, it comes down to proper definitions. When I use the term "atheist" what I mean is precisely this:

Atheist (Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary):
Atheist (Oxford Dictionaries Online):
Atheist (Merriam-Webster Dictionary):
Atheist does not mean the same thing as Agnostic. An atheist, as defined above, may certainly have a conception of G-d, but they are not likely to believe that conception actually exists, or at the very least, will not feel morally bound to its will and authority.

BadCompany

Just one problem, I don't believe in atheists.

JohnBarleycorn

That's your business, but something tells me that atheists aren't quite the same thing as Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.

Dee74

OK, as we don't seem to be adding anything to the discussion now, we'll leave it there.

If the OP comes back and wants this thread reopened, please let me Anna or Carol know, Kantaki.

D