Why do people put down things that help others?
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Least..I like this one..same gist.
"Consider it: every person you have ever met, every person will suffer the loss of his friends and family. All are going to lose everything they love in this world. Why would one want to be anything but kind to them in the meantime?"
— Sam Harris
"Consider it: every person you have ever met, every person will suffer the loss of his friends and family. All are going to lose everything they love in this world. Why would one want to be anything but kind to them in the meantime?"
— Sam Harris
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If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.
Mother Teresa
Read more: Mother Teresa Quotes - BrainyQuote
Mother Teresa
Read more: Mother Teresa Quotes - BrainyQuote
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I'm really hoping this thread doesn't get nuked, for I really believe there's a good and healthy debate going on here with a lot of thought behind many posts, and I seriously think that 90-percent or more of it very much pertains to the original post. I personally find it stimulating to hear the thoughts of others who come from a vast array of backgrounds and experiences, for it only confirms my belief that anyone can become fully recovered by incorporating any given recovery method; all it has to do is to work!
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Jtele, I too share your hope regarding the threads lifespan. It is evident that one should tread lightly when issues are as passionate as this one so obviously is. I for one find it difficult to not be blunt. I do believe that stems from the necessity as an atheist to have defend my beliefs to normally very critical theists. I hate having to hedge my words as it makes it difficult to get sometimes very simple concepts to shine on their own. I have absolutely seen religion and the institution of aa harm people. I am not alone in my observation and grateful that there are others that acknowledge the need to have honest open debate.
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Well, I feel as though I'm about to tread a bit lightly as I'm about to write this....LOL....but here goes.......
Funny thing is, I felt as though I went through a pretty powerful spiritual awakening nearly 40 years ago, and it changed my life forever. It wasn't about finding God or many Gods or, for that matter, it wasn't about religion of any kind whatsoever. It was much more about finding a universe that has a mighty huge power all in itself and that we're just a little, tiny microcosm of it. On the other hand, it felt like I suddenly discovered a world that was wide open for me to explore. As long as I didn't hurt anybody, and as long as I lived with an open mind while accepting all of those around me, I felt very much at peace with this.
Without going into further details, I feel as though I've lived a spiritual experience throughout my enitre adult life, and any support methods that encourage me to find a "spiritual awakening" other than the one I already know just won't work for me. If it works for others, I'm all in favor of it. With this in mind, how I became alcoholic in the first place, I'll never really know - I just liked to drink, I guess - but not only do I use my past spiritual experience to direct me toward the future, I also use my own mind - now that it's somewhat clear...haha - to simply decipher where I'm headed and to be certain that I don't make the very same mistake again. Call it a mission, a conviction, a commitment, or whatever, I just need the strength to remain sober at all costs, and I sincerely believe I have that strength to do it. I also have a very supporting and loving family behind me, so that's just the icing on the cake, so to speak. Only a bomb dropping on my house or a major catastrophe of some kind might be the only thing to deter me from the path I've chosen.
In the end, we're all here because we've had some serious issues with alcohol or drugs, and the bottom line is that we all need to help one another become sober. We won't always agree, but that's quite all right. Perhaps the real beauty of this site is that we do have the capability to help one another, and it certainly isn't a bad thing to agree to disagree.
Funny thing is, I felt as though I went through a pretty powerful spiritual awakening nearly 40 years ago, and it changed my life forever. It wasn't about finding God or many Gods or, for that matter, it wasn't about religion of any kind whatsoever. It was much more about finding a universe that has a mighty huge power all in itself and that we're just a little, tiny microcosm of it. On the other hand, it felt like I suddenly discovered a world that was wide open for me to explore. As long as I didn't hurt anybody, and as long as I lived with an open mind while accepting all of those around me, I felt very much at peace with this.
Without going into further details, I feel as though I've lived a spiritual experience throughout my enitre adult life, and any support methods that encourage me to find a "spiritual awakening" other than the one I already know just won't work for me. If it works for others, I'm all in favor of it. With this in mind, how I became alcoholic in the first place, I'll never really know - I just liked to drink, I guess - but not only do I use my past spiritual experience to direct me toward the future, I also use my own mind - now that it's somewhat clear...haha - to simply decipher where I'm headed and to be certain that I don't make the very same mistake again. Call it a mission, a conviction, a commitment, or whatever, I just need the strength to remain sober at all costs, and I sincerely believe I have that strength to do it. I also have a very supporting and loving family behind me, so that's just the icing on the cake, so to speak. Only a bomb dropping on my house or a major catastrophe of some kind might be the only thing to deter me from the path I've chosen.
In the end, we're all here because we've had some serious issues with alcohol or drugs, and the bottom line is that we all need to help one another become sober. We won't always agree, but that's quite all right. Perhaps the real beauty of this site is that we do have the capability to help one another, and it certainly isn't a bad thing to agree to disagree.
Your attitude, not your aptitude, will determine your altitude
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Originally Posted by LillieB 
Zencat, I so enjoy your posts..always evenhanded. I am curious as to your belief that aa uses god in a non religious way.
A non religious God is open to personal interpretation, with the possibility of varying interpretation depending on individuals needs. There is no need for a consensus between fellow believers.
Something interesting happens when people try to strip all the religiousness from God. They are left with a blank slate, yet many give God back some of his religious status. Enough so to make non-religious God somewhat recognizable to religious God. Thus inching God back into the religious realm.
Its a
subject that can be explored until the end of time.
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Originally Posted by Zencat
Something interesting happens when people try to strip all the religiousness from God. They are left with a blank slate, yet many give God back some of his religious status. Enough so to make non-religious God somewhat recognizable to religious God. Thus inching God back into the religious realm.
Its a subject that can be explored until the end of time.
Its a
subject that can be explored until the end of time.
i've done my almost
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Originally Posted by LillieB
I have absolutely seen religion and the institution of aa harm people. I am not alone in my observation and grateful that there are others that acknowledge the need to have honest open debate.
While this may be true, religion in general and AA specifically have also saved lives and helped millions of people recover from alcoholism.
I know b/c I'm living proof and I have many family and friends who have had the same experience. There are also alot of folks here on SR who feel the same way.
It would be unfair to leave that out.
Kjell~
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Jtele, thanks for the share. Clearly a powerful experience in your life. I like that you say you became an alcoholic caused you just liked to drink..same thing happened to me. LOL
Sobriety is an inside job which requires, as you say, conviction and commitment. The issue of god has no place in sobriety. It is something you give yourself.
Zencat, thanks for the reply. As you know this kind of god is simply not a suitable one for the aa program. We have both read the steps and the bb.
Sobriety is an inside job which requires, as you say, conviction and commitment. The issue of god has no place in sobriety. It is something you give yourself.
Zencat, thanks for the reply. As you know this kind of god is simply not a suitable one for the aa program. We have both read the steps and the bb.
i've done my almost
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Originally Posted by Zencat
When I think of using God in a non-religious way, I am thinking of a God that has no mythology and hence, no sacred text or oral tradition to transmit . Without the mythology and text or oral tradition, there is no record of laws, rites, commands and practices to appease or displease God, if one were to know what God was. Being not informed on what God is or dose, one uses their own idea of what God is and dose.
A non religious God is open to personal interpretation, with the possibility of varying interpretation depending on individuals needs. There is no need for a consensus between fellow believers.
Something interesting happens when people try to strip all the religiousness from God. They are left with a blank slate, yet many give God back some of his religious status. Enough so to make non-religious God somewhat recognizable to religious God. Thus inching God back into the religious realm.
Its a subject that can be explored until the end of time.
A non religious God is open to personal interpretation, with the possibility of varying interpretation depending on individuals needs. There is no need for a consensus between fellow believers.
Something interesting happens when people try to strip all the religiousness from God. They are left with a blank slate, yet many give God back some of his religious status. Enough so to make non-religious God somewhat recognizable to religious God. Thus inching God back into the religious realm.
Its a
subject that can be explored until the end of time.You're describing how us AA's view our higher power (or God) exactly. We'd be in big trouble if we had to have the same one
Kjell~
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Posts: 228
Hey all! And thank you for all of your viewpoints as well. It has certainly been an interesting discussion this afternoon. While I'd like to spill out some more thoughts, I have to cut out of here for the remainder of the day.
Have a great sober day!
JT
Have a great sober day!
JT
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Join Date: Feb 2011
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Kjell, I admire your conviction that religion is good force in the lives of many people. I would be remiss in disregarding that fact. That fact however does not make the idea that deities exist any more true. There is no reasonable evidence that any kind of gods exists so to tell sick people looking for help that they can make up a deity at will and it will love them, protect them, and care about them is cruel and quite arrogant if you asked me. Because someone got sober in aa does not prove the existence of god. That is coincidence not some super natural force from the heavens. Unfortunately many who fail within the rooms are made to feel as if they were not working the program hard enough, a program that has absolutely no basis in reality. A man made program based on a man made god. So the question remains..helps some..hurts others. Answer remains..open dialogue.
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Originally Posted by LillieB
Jtele, I too share your hope regarding the threads lifespan. It is evident that one should tread lightly when issues are as passionate as this one so obviously is. I for one find it difficult to not be blunt. I do believe that stems from the necessity as an atheist to have defend my beliefs to normally very critical theists. I hate having to hedge my words as it makes it difficult to get sometimes very simple concepts to shine on their own. I have absolutely seen religion and the institution of aa harm people. I am not alone in my observation and grateful that there are others that acknowledge the need to have honest open debate.
Since this has gone sideways into religion...I will say that I believe 150% that God got me sober....I believe he then placed some tools in my life and now it is 150% my responsibility to stay sober.
I also agree with whoever said religion has done much good...there are thousands of churches and Christians (can only speak for my religion) out there selflessly doing good and offering help to the most destitute of our society.
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Originally Posted by LillieB
Zencat, thanks for the reply. As you know this kind of god is simply not a suitable one for the aa program. We have both read the steps and the bb.
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Originally Posted by LillieB
The issue of god has no place in sobriety. It is something you give yourself.
Getting back to the OP... This is precisely why, in my opinion... why it seems that others criticize and tear down other's paths to sobriety... Some people, it seems, feel that their own experience is the only reality. I found out pretty quickly that your experience is yours and mine is mine... one does not cancel out the other...
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