Benowhere

Okay. If you really want to go down the route of 'evidence', ask yourself, in what field did those psychiatrists work? For treatment centres which push 12 steps. They have a vested interest in finding ways to promote AA as being effective. Obviously, if you involve yourself very heavily in a religion, you have transferred addictions from one to another. Many people don't want to do that. Here's some evidence for you...

The NIAAA's 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions interviewed over 43,000 people. Using the criteria for alcohol dependence found in the DSM-IV, they found:
"About 75 percent of persons who recover from alcohol dependence do so without seeking any kind of help, including specialty alcohol (rehab) programs and AA. Only 13 percent of people with alcohol dependence ever receive specialty alcohol treatment."


American Health Magazine reported:

...people are about ten times as likely to change on their own as with the help of doctors, therapists, or self-help groups.
J. Gurion, American Health Magazine, March 1990.


Project Match 1996 found no real difference between any forms of treatment as far as effectiveness.

George Vaillant, who was a non-alcoholic on AA's Board of Trustees, and is a huge fan of AA, had to admit in all his research, 'the rate of recovery was appalling' 3 percent. The Natural History Of Alcoholism.

Every time a proper double-blind study has been done on AA's effectiveness, it has shown itself to be the same as with no treatment, the natural rate of remission.

There are many many articles in Journals of addiction or alcoholism with little 'studies' propogating AA. These are written by people who work for, or are paid by treatment centres with a vested interest in making AA look effective. Or, more frequently, written by a true believer. They aren't proper research articles.

ReadyAndAble

Can I just say I'm really tired of the AA vs. RR debate? Personally, I see a lot of value in both approaches, or at least elements of both approaches. More important, look around this site—there are tons of people who credit AA with helping them, and tons who credit RR, and then there's a whole bunch of folks like me who will consider advice anywhere they can get it. We're all different; just because something works for me doesn't mean it will work for someone else.

I guess I'd just prefer it of people would stick to their personal experiences, not get into a battle of articles and studies.

I'm not just referring to this thread, by the way. I've noticed a bit of sniping the past week or so about AA and RR. Everyone who's found something that works for them should be really proud, and absolutely share that info -- but it doesn't mean another approach doesn't work for other folks.

Dopafiend

Very interesting article Antiderivative... Thanks for posting the link.

reggiewayne

Hey, it certainly wasn't my intention to get people going with their views on AA vs. RR. To be honest I didn't even know about RR until this thread. I had heard some people discuss the AVRT way and just wanted to get some expieriences on how it has worked for them.

I appreciate everyone's responses and am sorry if I stirred the pot. It was not my intention. Anyway, 32 days down and off to a meeting. Have a great day everyone!!!

Antiderivative

I am familiar with all or most of those studies. However, there are some serious misunderstanding and misconceptions on your part. I do not propagate AA nor do I believe that all researchers do either. In fact, I do not find it a perfect program and I occasionally have issues with AA and even a few of the members. You would know this if you actually read some of my post, but you are new here. However, I find it beneficial, but realize that AA is not for everyone.

Additionally, I am an atheist and haven't transferred my addiction to any sort of religion. I also do not find AA to be a religion. In my experience, people with an axe to grind against AA often call it a religion. I certainly do not agree with some of the God concepts, people's view on God, and AA literature about God. However, AA tends to be paganistic/gnostic more than anything. I can't count how many times I have met fundamental Christians in AA who have a completely different worldview about religion.

Anyways, your impression that the two Stanford psychiatrists have a vested interest in AA holds no weight. You didn't provide one ounce of evidence to support your theory.

As for the NIAAA study, they use a very loose term of "alcohol dependence". Their study clearly states that most people who develop alcohol dependence have a mild to moderate disorder. Under their classification, most of my friends from college were alcohol dependent. The overwhelming majority of these people are not likely to seek treatment or even post on SR. However, many were able to self-moderate over time without symptoms of alcohol dependence. And then you have bad drunks, like myself, who couldn't moderate and got trapped in a viscous cycle.

As for Valliant's study, it depends on how you define success. If you define it as complete abstinence, then the results are concerning to say the least. The success rate of AA is not that high. It is not for everyone, and some alcoholics are better off elsewhere or self-remiss (I will not hide from this fact). However, if you define success as reduced drinking, absence of alcohol dependence, or a reduction in problem drinking, then you see different results. The results get better.

If you actually read the article I posted, instead of using it as a tangent to grind your axe against AA, then you would have realized that the article was critically objective. It was far from a glowing puff piece about AA. Nonetheless, you saw what you wanted to see.

From the article:

The University of New Mexico’s Tonigan says the relationship between first-year attendance and long-term sobriety is small but valid: In the language of statistics, the correlation is around 0.3, which is right on the borderline between weak and modest (0 meaning no relationship, and 1.0 being a perfect one-to-one relationship).

“I’ve been involved in a couple of meta-analyses of AA, which collapse the findings across many studies,” Tonigan says. “They generally all come to the same conclusion, which is that AA is beneficial for many but not all individuals, and that the benefit is modest but significant … I think that is, scientifically speaking, a very valid statement.”

Tonigan works for CASAA at UNM and has done considerable research on alcoholism, AA, and other related areas. Here is their webpage with links to many interesting scientific articles about addiction, alcoholism, and treatment.
CASAA Vision

Here is a list of some of their publications.
http://casaa.unm.edu/download/mhrpubs.pdf

I assume you think that they have some vested interest in AA, and therefor are not objective.

Anyways, I feel that we are hijacking this thread and that wasn't my intention. I just clarifying on why some people attend AA for long periods of time. I believe that anyone who vested time and effort into any sort of recovery program will have better long term results. If you want to start a new topic on about this, then I will add my $0.02.

Dee74

No worries Reggie - it was a good and useful topic.

so....anyone got anymore experience to share about AVRT?
If not - please remember you're OT.

Perhaps take the discussion to PM, or, indeed start a new thread?

thanks
D

Dearyme

Its late in the day for me and my eyes cant cope with reading all the posts in this thread but I am very interested in learning more about this Avrt. I will be looking into it in more detail soon. Thanks for bringing it up - id never heard of it before.

ReadyAndAble

Hey, Reggie, I thought it was a really interesting topic! I just worried that in someone's zeal to promote an approach that worked for them, they might cast another approach in a bad light. I'm probably oversensitive after seeing some flames fly on another thread. Anyway, thanks again -- it piqued my interest in learning more as well.

Dearyme

Can anyone give me more info on this or point me in the right direction?

I read the AVRT in a Nutshell thing and it really appealled to me and helped me through a couple of days but are there any groups - discussions - therapy to go along with it?

I never heard of it before I read this thread.

I am from the UK so maybe its not recognised here as much or at all?

Any advice would be gratefully welcomed.

I have tried AA and am on a waiting list to see an alcohol counsellor but I have no idea how long I will have to wait.

Thanks very much. D x

Benowhere

You can buy the book Rational Recovery: The New Cure from amazon or any other bookstore. You can go to the website and do the crash course, or you can subscribe to his site, just go to the website and you'll see what's available.

Also, you may find this useful- type 'lizard brain addiction monster' in a search engine, it's along the same lines and is really helpful.

AVRT is apparently a registered trademark, which is why you can't find any forums or websites featuring it, other than the one above. Hope you find what you need.

Benowhere

Just to finish- there are no groups anywhere, and there is a forum inside his subscription site. Trust me on this though, it can be pretty abrupt and direct. It doesn't involve 'therapy' or 'hugs' or sharing your drunk story, its all about AVRT and whether you will commit to making a Big Plan. Its a different approach, and it has merit. Like anything though, you have to want it...

Terminally Unique

This article, which appeared in Behavioral Health Management on January 1, 1994 describes the technique fairly well:
I read through this thread, and I see that some people got sidetracked. This article was written before Jack Trimpey turned AVRT into a springboard for his political views, back when he considered AVRT "pre-treatment."

A rare find for free, since most web sites charge for this article.

Terminally Unique

Note that AVRT is now a registered trademark, which as someone pointed out, is why you won't find many web sites dedicated to it. As for my user name on here, I am not a professional providing addiction services or a member of any institution providing addiction services, and RR allows any private individual to use the term.

From the RR web site: