24hrsAday

Sounds Right to me..

wpainterw

I think it is nice that everyone seems to have a different conception of a "higher power". That is at it should be. The trouble starts if folks try to argue that their "higher power" is the only one possible. We are a small planet circling a sun on the outer fringes of a relatively obscure galaxy, in a universe which is at least 13.7 billion light years across. One light year is equal to 186,000 miles multiplied by 60 X 60 X 24 X 365.
I do not know the exact population of our planet but I suspect that if a single individual presumes to define the meaning of a "higher power" for all the rest then skepticism seems to be in order.
As to recovery from alcoholism, I would think that if your "higher power" works for you then this should be quite sufficient.

W.

LaFemme

Painter...I agree:-) the one thing I am pretty sure about is that the HP is not a fan of us killing one another because we disagree about what HP is:-)

augustwest

"The trouble starts if folks try to argue that their "higher power" is the only one possible."

and this is where the potential usefulness of western religion becomes limited. divisiveness is not a positive for humanity, no matter how you spin it.

thank goodness bill w. & co. had the vision to understand this, and left the god part of the 12 steps up to the individual, because otherwise people would have and would continue to die who otherwise would participate in the program. it's visionary and brilliant.

DayTrader

^^^^ just BANGIN' out the good posts Aug...

Thanks for saying what I was thinking.....and saying it better than I prolly would have.

LaFemme

Without religion where would AA have most of its meetings? Who would organize soup kitchens? Drives to provide clothing for the homeless? Medicine and job training to those in need?

I can't speak for other peoples experience with religion but there's a lot more to religion than divisiveness ...many churches emphasize inclusiveness.

augustwest

Oh, i'm definitely not trying to say that religions are only about divisiveness or that they're all completely that way. i was mainly referring to western religions first of all, because well, they're the most divisive. More people have been killed in the name of god than for any other reason.

but i do believe strongly that all religions contain the spirit of the truth and way to live a spiritual life. The different ones speak to their demographic from when they originated. They have a purpose and i'm not opposed to them per se, but i see no usefulness for zealotry and divisiveness. Humanity needs, now more than ever, to come together, not fight over who's right.

LaFemme

Not to derail the subject...but I believe the people who use religion as an excuse to bebdivisive would probably still be divisive without religion...they would simply latch onto something else that was hateful and divisive...say Fox news;-p

augustwest

"Without religion where would AA have most of its meetings? Who would organize soup kitchens? Drives to provide clothing for the homeless? Medicine and job training to those in need?"

These are all great examples of the wonderful services that religious groups provide. I'm consistently impressed with the local level service work done by churches in my area. It's beautiful.

I also don't think that the argument of "who would do it without religion" holds much merit. "religions" aren't doing anything, generous and compassionate people who happened to be members of religions are doing this work. And if religions were to suddenly vanish(which ain't happening)i have confidence in the spirit of my fellow humans that people would organize to still get such altruistic matters taken care of.

I'm not arguing for the destruction of religion, though it may appear that way. I just believe the absolutist approach to religion has worn out it's usefulness. With the rise of technology our world is connected in ways unimaginable not that long ago. We know so much more about eachother. The "my way or the highway" bit is archaic.

But i also know it's inherent it many religious practices thus not likely to change, and i respect that.

augustwest

You made a great point there. I do wonder where this divisiveness is learned though? It's a society problem, and religion plays a role but is certainly not the only factor.

24hrsAday

good stuff guys.. i'm just glad i don't need to know All the answers to stay clean and sober..

leo21

Yeah - if we had to know all the answers I would be screwed right now.

I believe that it's perfectly 100% acceptable to do whatever it takes to get sober. If that means doing the hokey-pokey 20 times a day, making your HP whatever or whoever it is, it doesn't matter. Things are meant to be revealed one piece at a time and not all at once. It's because we are simply human and limited - we can't handle the whole enchilada in one sitting.

I'm fine with what I have and where I am right now. Do what works, and when something doesn't work, either try again or search, search, search. LOL!!

LaFemme

Hey!!! How did you discover my secret to sobriety???

:rotfxko:rotfxko:rotfxko

augustwest

"It's because we are simply human and limited - we can't handle the whole enchilada in one sitting."

No freaking kidding. And if we could handle it all at once, what would be the point of being human?