augustwest

for those like me who don't believe in the creator, judeo/christian god concept i've found it helpful to think of it in terms of an "it" rather than a "he/she" or other being with human qualities, judgements, and opinions.

MelissaNoDrugs

Someone once described spirituality to me as self-actualization. What I get from that, is that we need to see ourselves in the whole complete world: people, clouds, oceans, animals and everything else. When I see things in that perspective I can't help but feel a certain humility and appreciation for, as Kevin Spacey put it so eloquently in American Beauty, "every minute of my stupid little life."

HidLid

In the terms of AA steps 2/3...not sure if I could ever get past them. I'm basically 7/10ths atheist & 3/10ths agnostic. I can believe in things more powerful than me, sure that's easy (laws of physics, etc), but I am unable to convince myself that those things have a will for me or have any power to relieve any character flaws. It just doesn't make any sense unless the HP has mystical/supernatural/non-physical powers.

I'm not exactly pressed by AA or the steps though as I have been able to keep sober due to the fact that I don't actually want to drink recently. I don't view it in my mind as I can't drink, I could if I wanted...I just don't want to. I don't want to because I've had my fill of negatives from drinking in combination to the positives of not drinking.

SweetCityWoman

I am on day 29 and have been going to AA meetings for about 3 weeks (just got a sponsor this week) and find meetings helpful but am not religious so I too am having trouble seeing myself actually doing some of the steps (although I know it is not supposed to be about religion). I guess I am a spiritual person but not really sure what I mean by that exactly. But lately while on long walks in the woods with my dogs I have been thinking about a HP - I am understanding that I need to let in and believe in something outside of myself (sorry if this sounds concrete) but I am not sure how to conceptualize this. The other day I thought it was nature. I also thought it was in reaching out and helping people which I do in my work. But then I sit back and tell myself not to overthink things and this early in my journey I should just focus on going to meetings and letting it "flow" over me. But I do have a concern about some of the steps and whether in the future I will be able to adapt these to feel right for me.

HidLid

For me I see it as inherently Christianity based on the wording (God capitalized, referring to God as a him). Of course that can be worked around, the real reason I kinda feel a bit put off is everyone else in AA talks about the Christian God, does the whole hold hands and say an our father at the end of the meetings, talk about talking to priests and other (Christian) spiritual advisors. I do my best to word what I say in neutral phrasing, I've had bad experiences in the past (not at AA) when people heavy into the Christian God even get the hint that I don't believe as they do. I don't see it as I'm trying to not get into trouble as much as I still value their input and any advice they have. If I alienate myself or insult their beliefs (unintentionally, like if they say God helped them out today, without God that couldn't have happened then I next say I don't believe God exists, say when talking about step 2/3...well that can be insulting) they will likely be less likely to give advice and encouragement.

augustwest

one of the things i like about NA is the lack of holding hands(we do group hug) and we don't say the lord's prayer. i've found a lower % of judeo-christian-centric god talk in the rooms of NA as well. Nothing against AA or any judeo-christian traditions, just sharing my experience.

SweetCityWoman

HidLid - I can relate to what you are saying. The most I have said in meetings is that I am not a religious person. At all my meetings they do the hand holding and Lord's Prayer but in some of the meetings there is not much reference to God etc. One there was and I didn't go back to that one aftere I realized some were not like that. But I also don't want to alienate anyone as I believe to each his or her own and I respect each person's beliefs - as I would hope they would do towards me. But some of the steps just seem more difficult to avoid the religious connotations. I think it is because the language used in AA is from the original and no attempts have been made to balance this - rather there are other types of programs one can choose. Problem is that these are fewer and further between than AA as far as meetings etc. So I am trying right not to just be there for support and structure and will try to deal with how to do the steps with my sponsor - how does one do this given AA claims to not be associated with any particular religion. But I am early into this so am keeping an open mind. Discussions like this are helpful to me - hearing I am not alone but also hearing how others suggest approaching this.

Eddiebuckle

Great thread. At my home group meeting yesterday the moderator opened discussion by noting that it was the Day of Atonement in the Jewish faith. He went on to say that the middle English root for atonement is “at-one” or to be in agreement with, as in with God or ones higher power.
I used to be convinced that this existence is it – there is no God, no afterlife, no spiritual world: life is nasty, brutish and short and then you die. That is not to say there was no room for love or kindness in my life, but I lived on the basis that so long as my actions did not directly interfere with or harm another, I was living well enough. This dovetailed with my drinking & using since they did no harm other than perhaps to people who cared for me by shortening my life. As my drinking progressed (or more appropriately, regressed) it became necessary for me to jettison those parts of my life that conflicted with my drinking. During that time both my parents died, my mate and I split, my canine companions had to be put down, and my remaining relationships became emotionally distant. My moment of clarity came last December, where I found myself broken in almost every way possible and I admitted myself into treatment.
In retrospect, that was my moment of submission: I matter. All of this matters, and for some reason, I am here. Not here to merely live, suffer and die. In these months of sobriety I have many times felt overwhelming gratitude. Gratitude by its nature is the result of something unearned received from another, a gift. I came to understand that my gratitude was proof of my higher power, much like faint thunder is proof of lightening too distant to see. My experience is certainly not of the “burning bush” variety, but I accept that as where I am in my journey. Right now my place in this process is to stay present, learn and grow; eventually I believe it will be to pass on what I have received. I trust that I will know when those opportunities arise.

mama36

Your post is wonderful Eddie, and very enlightening.

D.

SweetCityWoman

Eddie - I really can relate to your post - and it is resounding in my soul. It actually brought me some comfort while on this journey - esp. the part about graditude. I find that having people share thoughts like that helps me remain open which is where I am at in my first month in AA. Thanks!

Toronto68

Sweet City, you sound similar to me when it comes to the analysis (and then trying not to analyze too much). I would just let it flow over you, like you said. You already listened for it during your walks and thought there was some kind of oneness with the surroundings - and inside of that experience there is a question about whether God is in action there. It could very well be the result of good physical activity and good air and doing what humans were meant to do; and the body and mind repairing itself after a period of alcoholic destruction. If all those more scientific explanations are true, it doesn't mean, when it comes down to it, that it isn't God in action though. For those of us who are not lifelong spiritualists or religious people, I think we do ourselves a favor to just let it be if we feel like we are finally connecting to something spiritual. It's also a trust in ourselves that we are taking care of ourselves, I think.