Mark75

What is God? I know, I know.... But really... and don't feel that you have to try to answer me.... I am not engaging in the argument...

If I could package my conceptualization of "God"... not the Cecil B. Demille and Charlton Heston God and all... but what "God" is to me... and "show" it to another... atheists might say, well that's not the "God" I don't believe in... or an agnostic might say, "Yea", I can understand that... but... and a fundamentalist might call me a heretic or advise some more bible study.... but... maybe not?

So when you try to use a scale of belief... what belief, exactly, are you measuring? We can't even agree on what is "God"... ya know?

Ah, I don't know, I usually don't do so well in these discussions... I should say that I am catholic and I believe. That works for me. But even catholics can't really use words to describe God... except that we were created in His image... maybe the clue is in there somewhere?

Supercrew

And for the record, I will admit that I had to give in to alcohol and admit that I could/would never have a drink again. The bottle won many battles against me, but by avoiding it I won the war..so to speak.

DayTrader

reading this thread has become a "justifiable excuse" to further avoid working on another inventory.

.... I wonder if my sponsor, whom I asked to "ride my a$$ if I'm not done by this Sunday" will buy my excuse?
--- looks like there's gonna be a lot of writing this weekend at my retreat!


and Lexie, me too! SR just made my resentment list because I'm powerless over hangin out here when I've got "better" stuff I need to be working on. LOLOLOL

LexieCat

I suggest you throw in some stuff about resentments that popped up for you as you read it. If you didn't have any, make some up. Then you can throw in dishonesty, too. At least you'll have something to show for it.

Pinkcuda

Tremendous! How much time are we willing to spend between step one and step two?
In the meanwhile we can just sit in meetings and pump sunshine up each others skirts until we finally believe or we get struck drunk.

One more time. AA is not meetings. Going to meetings is not AA.
AA is a 12 step program of action involving a relationship with God as you understand him.

Check out the results Clarence was having as opposed to Bill.
Clarence was separating the wheat from the chaff while Bill was taking anyone whether they believed in God or not.

Dee74

I'm not in a very good mood today. My tolerance for BS is way down.
Everybody please read carefully.

thankew.
D

LaFemme

Wasn't it the ancient Jews who believed you could not name God which is where the name Yahweh came from?

Regarding the thread...I think Lexi is right if a person goes to an AA meeting they shouldn't be debating the people who are using AAs tools. The problem, as Superceew more or less says lies in the fact that a lot of people are ordered to attend AA by the court. Can you imagine having to attend the same AA meeting as Lindsay Lohan (I believe she has to go to 5. A week for the next 3 months). In a sense AA is a victim of its own popularity.

LexieCat

This is where these discussions completely lose me. Do we simply ignore the chapter "We Agnostics"? "We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. 'Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?' As soon as a man can say that he does believe, or is willing to believe, we emphatically assure him that he is on his way." What I get from that is that an open mind, willingness, is enough in the beginning.

BB quote 1st edition

RobertHugh

I thought (which means I could be very wrong) that Clarence's success was attributed to bringing people through the steps prior to bringing them to meetings. He was qualifying them as alcoholics, not believers in God. Bill, on the other hand, was much more focused on fellowship and making people feel comfortable.

Look, my experience was with the Hyannis Big Book Step Study approach. And they basically do not allow anyone to get bogged down in 2 or 3. In fact, I've seen them ask the person who refused to say the 3rd step prayer if they were willing to move on to Step 4, and if they were, they kept going.

The theory is that you work 1-3 by doing 4-9. 4-9 clears the obstacles to the presence of a higher power. And thank God for that-- because if I needed to sign something for Step 2 or 3 that said I absolutely was willing or believed, I would have stopped. It was 4 and 5 that started to open the door.

Mark75

I was gonna mention that, but I already said too much ... so yea, that's my understanding.

LaFemme

Darn, that never stops me...lol:-)

Tealvertigo

First of all, thank you for sharing your experiences. I tend to disagree with some things mentioned, but I will not focus on that in this post. Rather, I would just like to share my perspective on things. As you might have read, I was one a believer, but decided later that it wasn't for me. However, I was raised in an agnostic fashion- with the mentioning of a God without the lifestyle implemented or even deemed preferable to anything else. I should also mention that I led a period of life (about four years) in my mid to late teenage years where I was a devoted Christian and was extremely active in the religious community.

When I was 20, I was stricken with a personal tragedy that I felt I couldn't get out of. It wasn't addiction, but self-injury ensued and I desperately pleaded to God with every ounce of faith that was left in me for the pain to go away. I wasn't answered, and at that point, I decided that whether there was a God or not, I was a hopeless case and attempted to take my life by overdosing on a medication. I wrote a letter to my mom and asked her to forgive me for the decision I made.

I was rushed to the hospital, and was evaluated by a psychologist. On several occasions, nurses said things such as "God must have cared to not let you die". Others said similar things, and I got the impression that even though I was the patient- the one in pain and needing of support- the focus was on God, which irritated me. It was after a long period of beating myself up and growing a tough skin that I became embittered with the thought of a God being the purpose and reason for my strength. I began to *hate* God.

However, I came to one day and realized that my anger was only validated by some sort of human frustration within me. After doing a *lot* of thinking (almost a year's worth), I humbly decided that whether I was compatible with the faith or simply closed minded, it wasn't for me. While I denounced the Christian faith, I never denied the possibility of a God-type figure. I felt a relief of anger in the divine when I made this decision, and at this point, I wouldn't condemn anyone who *is* a Christian, Catholic, whatnot. I no longer hate the idea of a God because I am living on other principles.

Your example seems to validate your own beliefs, which is very reasonable and understandable. However, others would identify Athiests and Christians in different ways for different reasons. I don't know if it is always a matter as simple as wanting or not wanting to believe God. I believe a lot of it is based on experiences, which brings a lot of variety to things.

LaFemme

I was just sharing my mothers position on God...I don't recall mentioning being a Christian...I do believe in Jesus but don't really consider myself a Christian because I have never found a church that I consider tolerant enough for me. I wasn't raised with any religion or discussion of God in my family, but I always knew God...I'm not looking to validate anything.

DayTrader

back to the original post of this thread....

No, it doesn't. But that trust came with practical experience.

“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation” -Herbert Spencer

Tealvertigo

Oh, sorry about that. I was tired and must not have read as well as I usually do.

Ananda

not sure about sharing,....but....the sponsor who welcomed me back to the 12 steps in january...he said...WE AGNOSTICS is because WE are agnostic by nature...we tend to not believe in what we cannot prove...see, feel touch...but the nature of our ilness is that we have a scewed perspective.

He opened up to me as a person saying....it's ok that you don't "believe" in god....it's your nature....lets go on.

From that day, December 31st...I have come to a very different place on the god issue...that said...I am just out of treatment...I drank again...

But what he gave me still holds....it is possible these steps are the way....I don't know about the HP stuff....I'm willing to act out of a belief i don't always have.

If we were seperating wheat from chaff...well...I suppose if the point is how many people can you get sober...we would focus on those who are closest to getting it....

But my purpose...despite my record...is to help other alchoholics who like me...struggle apparently helplessly...there is hope for us too....There are many in the fellowship who will help the alchoholic who comes in with a firm faith and a strong desire and all those prerequisites...

But I believe today that there are those who come in without those things...who have no chance...but yet they do..just as i believe i do.

Today i strive to live in the care of, to believe that no matter how obstinite, unwilling, stuborn, and basically fcked up i am...no matter what my outside issues....The steps may well lead me to a life that has some meaning and is sober....not pain free, but without the hopelessness I have been in.

Recovery is possible...agnostic, athiest, believer....I have to believe in the steps cause it is what is left when all the other methods have failed.

anyhow rambling...just some thoughts.

You don't have to lie to yourself about what you believe and where you are for the steps to work. And no one is beneath another in our HP's love caring and help....There is hope for the chaff???

stanleyhouse

From reading all these posts one thing has been made clear, AA is the steps and that is what they trust. I think people in recovery are doing the steps in their own way, they just may not be aware of it.
SH

RobbyRobot

A good read. Great posts. Interesting. Worthwhile.

RR

littlefish

I thank this thread for this quote: heeeheeee!
Is that Colorado lingo?

Pinkcuda

Actually I gave you guys the version that has been approved for use in mixed company.