wpainterw

I have retired now from the practice of law. But it is still interesting to me how the debate about agnosticism, atheism, and God has been "legalized" as it were. There is much talk of "proof" and "burden of proof." Traditionally these terms have been more frequently used in the courtroom. Are they appropriate to religion, which speaks of "faith", as opposed to "knowledge"? The medieval theologians spent much time discussing supposed "proofs" for the existence of God. Over the years each of these "proofs" have been thought to fail in one way or another. Yet people still "believe" and many say that their "belief" carries them through horrible situations, the "valley of death" as it were. That it seems to do so may be "proof" enough for them. Who would gainsay that? As for agnostics and atheists, if they find comfort in those beliefs (for atheism certainly qualifies as a "belief" rather than a proven certainty; it is difficult or impossible to "prove" a negative) then that is a good thing too. The only controversial thing, it would seem, is if one person should seek to claim exclusivity or impose his or her belief on others, as where atheists might accuse agnostics of cowardice, or believers in a particular god were to characterize others as "heretics" or "infidels".

keithj

Hmmm, I would have scored a 6 on the scale Mat posted. And I'm a textbook example of getting recovered in AA.

The 12 Steps don't require any belief or faith going in to them. They just ask that I be willing to give it a try. Through the process of the the 12 Steps, the consciousness of that belief is sure to manifest.

The spiritual awakening is the result of the Steps, not something I have to possess before I can take the Steps.

yeahgr8

For me i came into the rooms believing in the God i had been taught about, the vengeful and hateful guy who smited people who looked the wrong way at him...given my life i was pretty sure i was screwed!

Then i opened my mind up, well i didn't the pain, desperation and hopelessness did that for me, and discovered my God of my understanding and as it turns out the rubbish i had been taught about "God" was just that after many, many books and deep discussions with sponsor and friends...

The thing is when i crawled into AA i was so distrustful of myself and sure that i would have been better off letting a camel make my life decisions, judging by previous experience, that it wasn't too much of a stretch to let God take over...but i still didn't know who God was so, for me, my HP was my sponsor for a while until i had come out of the fog, worked the steps, got my spiritual awakening.

All that mattered when i came in was that i would accept that if there was a HP that i wasn't it...then we could begin the work! Could i stop the sun from setting tomorrow...no...that sounds insane that i would have needed it explained like that as i clearly couldn't even manage my own life...but y'know typical alchie full of ego and lying in the gutter looking down on people:-)

LexieCat

At the risk of jinxing it (lol, I'm STILL superstitious!) I appreciate the thoughtful, respectful discussion here. I find everyone's personal beliefs fascinating, and there are often ideas thrown out that turn out to be helpful to me, personally. If I can't accept someone else's idea for myself, I can still appreciate that it gives that person strength and hope.

In the end, we are all very limited in our ability to understand the mind and the universe at large by our extremely primitive "computers". The best we can do is to recognize that none of us has a corner on all of the truth--at best we have small glimpses here and there of what appears to be true.

Mat

/sigh

DayTrader

!!!!!!


thanks

RobertHugh

I was about a 5. Which is interesting, because I'm also, I think, a textbook example of restoration to sanity through the 12 steps. Yes, I know it's only been six months, but...well, you've all heard me rant on here. I'm either completely full of sh*t or something's changed in me.

Is the conclusion that an awakened spirit does not require a belief in a higher power?

I'm reminded of that scene in Animal House, where Pinto asks Donald Sutherland..."can I buy some pot from you?"

Mat

I wasn't trying to start a debate by posting my own little atheist riot act, by the way. I just thought there may be some real confusion about what most intelligent atheists believe(or more accurately, don't believe).

I know a few people whose beliefs on the subject quite literally mirror my own down to the letter, that have had success in AA. I think the reason that it doesn't work for myself isn't that I am an agnostic atheist, but that I am argumentative to a fault and the message becomes lost in my mind over the overwhelming urges I have to point out what appears to me(not bashing anyone!), to be faulty logic.

Maybe if I found an ultra-cool atheist sponsor to smack me upside the head every once in a while, eh?

Pinkcuda

Then an AA meeting is no place for them and I question why they're in A.A to begin with.
As I've always said that the rooms of AA are no place for a LifeRing support group.

RobertHugh

@Mat-- meant when I said thanks. I'm trying to learn.

LaFemme

LOL...I'm the only person who scored a 1 on Mat's trial and I'm into Secular recovery:-)

Mat...really interesting, I meant it:-) Maybe I'll go looking for an ultra-cool atheist AA sponsor for you, on the condition that we could all be flis on the wall during your discussions!

wicked

Where do I get one of those?

Thank you so much for your post on the scale and distinctions. I must show my daughter, she is just about finished with a rehab program which is "god" focused, and trying to get what she can out of it.

I would say I am a 2, and she is a 6 on the scale. I have been trying to explain the difference between "God" and something beyond her ego/mind.
Sigh....... she is about to turn 18.

Oh, i am recovering from alcohol (aug 18 was 14 years) and my daughter is in rehab for the third time, this time for alcohol. thank you again for your well written and thoughtful posts and replies. i appreciate it.

Beth

wicked

great idea LaFemme!

LexieCat

Maybe they are there because nothing else has worked and they are willing to keep an open mind on the subject for now.

I think that's all the Big Book says is necessary to begin with.

24hrsAday

That Open Mind Thing is Key.. i Know i Don't Have All The Answers!

Pagekeeper

About half of the original fellowship was atheist or agnostic. The whole purpose of the big book and the 12 steps is clearly defined on page 45:

Any alcoholic, whether a believer, agnostic, or atheist, has the right to attend AA according to our 3rd tradition.

Atheists and agnostics in meetings do not bother me a bit. What bothers me is the person who doesn't identify with our description of the alcoholic, but they just like AA because they have a ready made social group or they can get into service and feel important about themselves. We're so accepting and welcoming, and all that sugary BS.

If the atheist and agnostic go through the 12 steps, they will tap into something. It may not be your conception of God, it may not be a deity or conventional, but they will tap into something they can call a higher power. One can't go through the steps without this happening. It's like following the recipe for a cake. You're going to get a cake if you follow that recipe exactly.

LaFemme

Just out of curiosity...1) What is your definition of alcoholic? and 2) do people actually join AA just for the social aspect?

Thanks! And sorry for the hijacking:-)

Pagekeeper

1. According to how AA defines the alcoholic, s/he has one symptom that sets them apart from other drinkers:

pg xxx

2. Yes. All the time. They're definitely "lost," they're just not alcoholics. I heard a woman speak once who flat out told us that she'd never had the phenomena of craving.

LaFemme

Thanks Pagekeeper...from the way you said something I thought it might be something complicated...I don't know why. That's sad that people would be so lost that they would try to join a recovery group for that reason, I didn't realize that happened...I wish there was a "Lonely People Anonymous" group out there:-(

RobertHugh

To add to PageKeeper, I think the alcoholic has lost power, choice and control in matters of alcohol and that they are unable to quit based on self-knowledge.

I don't think they join for the social aspect, but I think some people stick around for it, long after they've either discovered or demonstrated that they aren't an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. But AA gives their lives meaning and purpose and reminds them not to drink. Who can argue that's a bad thing? The problem is that it has diluted the more urgent message of "recover or die" that the chronic alcoholic requires. You sometimes wind up with hard drinkers sponsoring chronic, hopeless alcoholics.

As the bottom for alcoholism has been raised, the line between the hard drinker and the alcoholic has been blurred. I think they both need to stop drinking, it's just that one is powerless and the other isn't.