Dee74

With a bit of mod magic I've broken this discussion off from another thread
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post2594437

Thanks

D

franklymydear

Sorry betterlife4me. Didn't mean to hijack your thread, but as you are considering a break followed by social drinking, I think this conversation is relevant to your situation!!!

Right. The people who keep going back are here. Those that don't are out there living with no need to be part of a group of supportive people who are all in the same situation as them, like here. It's like when I used to be depressed and thought my whole life was going to be like that, hating myself, being unable to get out of bed, or work, etc. I'd go on the forums and it was hard to find anything truly positive that fit into my beliefs about myself... because the people who made their way out of feeling that way (like I have now) didn't feel the need to go and hang around mental health forums.

I understand what you are getting at. Obviously, I'm enthusiastic about how I'm feeling (read my most recent post in the only thread started by me and you'll get an idea). I mean, who wouldn't be enthusiastic about already going days without any real mental or physical cravings for alcohol? I understand too that you feel that I might be "jumping the gun". I just don't feel like an "alcoholic" deep down, just like I didn't feel like someone who was born "depressed" all those years ago. Was I "dependant" on alcohol? Oh, most assuredly. Am I still? Maybe somewhere in there. Maybe a night of drinking will trigger something. Maybe. Will Saturday night be an experiment. Yes. I am aware of the consequences, yes. Might I write a long post in my journal here Sunday night about how I'm back in withdrawal? Maybe. I'm willing to take that risk.

Again, I'm not knocking these forums or the people in them at all, some people absolutely, positively cannot be around alcohol or risk dropping into the same downward spiral and that's just the way it is... but others, some I know online, and some personally, dropped it for a while, even after years of drinking too much in the evenings, and had no problems keeping it a reasonable social thing after that.

Time will tell.

Thanks for the concern and take care.

Dee74

You have a perfect right to go find your way FMD.

I was just sharing my experience...an experience not just gathered here, but 'out there' too.

That's all I can do - and not only for you Frankly - there's no telling who else might read this thread some time

Sorry if it came across as anything else. Like I said, I genuinely hope things work out like you hope they will.
D

vegibean

So untrue........ people that want to STAY sober are here as well. My opinion, but I think generally speaking, people in all walks of life need support as we will continue through our lifetime to have disruptions, stresses and major life changes, support from others that care and can relate is a beautiful and positive thing. I haven't "gone back out", and I consider this place a refuge when needed and I give support back to others that seek it.

betterlife4me, I have read through your posts and people have responded with some great insight, and while you seem completely confident in your plan of stopping for 30 days and then be able to "control your drinking", I just want to say, "good luck and let me know how that works for you."

I'm not trying to be mean at all, but if we were face to face I'd say the same thing to you. Like I said, more power to you if you can, but I think you'll find that it's going to be impossible.

What I have to say in support of what you have said, you have health insurance and that's awesome. Most policies today cover some treatment for substance abuse, and some cover all of it, depending on how it's set up. I hope that if you find things are out of your control you'll look into what it covers. Looking back to what you mentioned about your mother's mental health declining after she quit drinking, I will just assume that she didn't go through any program when she quit. Both mental health and substance abuse go hand in hand, and I believe 110% that with counseling and support while putting the drug of choice down, people can learn healthier ways of dealing with life generally and to continue to stay sober.

My best to you.

smacked

Frankly.. a lot of us are incredibly successful in our recovery, and involved with coming to this forum because of the incredible sense of community, and to help support people who are still struggling. We also manage to participate in 'forums like these' and maintain a healthy, wonderful life 'out there'. I'm glad that you found your way out of depression and felt good about dropping the online support you had.. for me, recovery is lifelong..and I'm proud to be an active participant.

Sorry for continuing the hijack, BL.. to comment on your latest question, sure.. drinking a drink or two every so often is likely not harmful to non alcoholics..but I'm not one of them, and have no interest in having only one drink.

yeahgr8

Wow well i feel humbled by the opinions shared on this thread and of course i am grateful for any advice or opinion from anyone with such an impressive amount of sober time, i am going to save some of the posts in my desktop folder named 'The Insanity of the Alcoholic - part 54'...

I probably need to point out that i am being sarcastic before i start getting thanked for the support lol

franklymydear

Nope, it didn't. Aren't we all here to share our experiences and opinions and learn from those shared by others? These can't all be conversations where we stand around and pat each other on the back. I hope I didn't come across as anything else.

I don't really "hope" anything. I know that I do enjoy some social drinking (which was never my problem), or a glass of quality wine, so if that works out, fine, if it doesn't, fine. As you said, I gotta find my personal way to go through life.

You're right, I think I phrased that wrong. I didn't mean to suggest that the only people that come here are the ones that try to get alcohol out of their lives but continue to fail. I was trying to include, and nobody seems to see that I acknowledge this, everyone who simply can't take the first drink without it spiralling out of control.

What I was trying to say, by analogy with the depression and depression forums, is that some people really do cut out their physical dependence and it never becomes a problem again. I may or may not be one of those people, but I'd like to find out. And, if things continue the way they have (again, see the thread I started about my experience so far), I will undoubtedly walk away from these forums and never look back... while hoping that my journal and thoughts might be useful to someone else.

My original argument still stands: Those who walk away from their dependence without a thought of looking back will not be here. I know I won't be if I'm one of them, unless it's to come back and say, "Day 386. Still rockin' the free world, baby!"

If it sounded like I was slighting the community, I apologize, it was never intended. We all need varying kinds of support for varying kinds of issues in our lives... and that includes, dependence, depression or other mental health issues, a death in the family, etc. Whatever form that support takes is great.

Well "wow", back... I thought this was a support and discussion forum, and not a mocking and name-calling forum. What was the point of posting that, other than ridicule? At least I was openly and honestly sharing my thoughts and opinions to someone who is in a similar boat as me, something you can't seem to do without sarcastic vitriol. How incredibly bitter of you. Can I use the "Attack the argument, not the person" smiley icon now?

Sigh.

I actually get incredibly discouraged by the fact that everyone here seems to think that anyone who's had any level of dependence with alcohol is exactly the same. That is, if you've had any level of dependence with alcohol, it's going to be a lifelong battle and will haunt you the rest of your days unless you take a staunch and absolute approach to it. I faced the same perspective when trying to rid myself of depression... (eg. you'll be on anti-depressants the rest of your life, like there is something inherently defective about how my brain works), and it simply didn't pan out that way.

I also feel like people aren't really reading and absorbing my full posts. They are actually very moderate and full of plenty of conditionals, "ie: Was I "dependant" on alcohol? Oh, most assuredly. Am I still? Maybe somewhere in there. Maybe a night of drinking will trigger something? Maybe. Will Saturday night be an experiment? Yes. I am aware of the consequences, yes. Might I write a long post in my journal here Sunday night about how I'm back in withdrawal? Maybe. I'm willing to take that risk."

Anyways, take care, all.

NewBeginning010

I think you are missing the fact that there are many people that are on here that have been sober for many many years & continue to come here to give back not because they keep going back out there ;-)

And I assure you that they are "out there living" better than they ever did while drinking.

If you can drink alcohol and control it great, we are happy for you and wish you the best of luck. There are many of us here that have tried countless times to "control" our drinking with negative results so we have decided to live without it.

Keep us updated on your progress with responsible social drinking. If you find it doesn't work out the way you planned we will be right here ready to help & support you.

If it works out they way you planned & you can drink the way you want to without hurting yourself or others then all I have to offer is... Cheers ;-)

Take Care,

NB

Toronto68

Frankly, I guess you have to figure it out. I don't have a crystal ball to know what's what. A portion of what you said reminds me of my rationalizing in the past, but I suppose things could be different for you. For other people and me, the test you are talking about gets prolonged over a stretch of years with lots more yuckiness to them. I see my situation as addiction to alcohol because I know I ignored and defied the problem as I used alochol to soothe problems over and over again (but it of course makes them worse, when you consider the "depressant" reality). We have to find our path, and it needs to be a good one.

Don't be dismayed by what Yeahgr8 said. He doesn't know how to present his meaning in the right packaging for some reason, but if this is a case of alcohol addiction in you, he wants you to have good results and to get better without alcohol in your life. I've seen it before.

franklymydear

Hi NewBeginning. I elaborated on this in the post above yours. I wasn't exactly clear on what I was trying to say, and I agree with you 100% here.

Oh of course, I never said otherwise, and if I implied in any way something else, I apologize! I never ever said that it was a path for everyone, only that some people have.

Oh I will, and thanks. I was kind of expecting a huge backlash for posting something that runs contrary to most of the discussion here, but I had to honestly speak my mind, which of course is open to change.

Life itself is an experiment. This is my first "big quit" (longer than a couple of days) and I've broken through the physical withdrawal wall. I understand people's concern, but I have to do this experiment as well, the outcome of which I do acknowledge is uncertain.

Yeah, I suppose I could be rationalizing. The thing with rationalizing is that you can not even be aware of it happening. Of course, I'm familiar with rationalization. As I've written in my journal thread, I'd make justifications like, "If you clean up your room/kitchen and get rid of all the bottles, etc, you can drink tonight and then it'll be over", or "I'll quit on my days off when there's no stress" and then "I'll quit on my days working because I'll be so tired and it'll be easy to fall asleep", etc. At the same time as I was making those rationalizations, part of me was still crying out, "No! You know you're just sabotaging yourself!"

It doesn't feel like that at all. Could be wrong... time will tell.

Sure. That's how my drinking started. I used to be depressed, anxious, alone, full of self-pity and self-hate, feeling hopeless about my self, my life and the future. So I used it mentally as a distraction from these feelings. Then, unbeknownst to me, came the physical dependence. Then, over the past couple of years, all those things I used to think about myself and my life evaporated, but I just couldn't shake the physical dependence. After 13 days of not drinking, I don't have the slightest inkling of wanting to drink alone. What I do still have is the desire to accomplish, do (instead of distract), improve myself, explore this amazing world, find a positive relationship, etc.

Perhaps the only stumbling block I really need to watch out for is if somehow something retriggers that "old me". It hasn't happened yet, even in the toughest times (money, work, friends, etc).

Again, time will tell.

Thanks for your concern.

If that's his intention, then I welcome it.

susanlauren

FranklyMyDear,
I hope your experiment with controlled drinking works the way you want it to work. I tried a drinking experiment once -- 2 drinks a day, no more, no less, every day for six months -- then I quit entirely for three months. Success! I concluded I was making too big a deal out of a small matter (i.e., the small matter was the alcohol binges I would have from time to time). I further concluded that I was not alcoholic because no alcoholic could control his/her drinking in the manner that I had just done.

I decided I would enjoy my drinking, drink socially, and not worry about whether I was alcoholic -- banish the thought from my mind. Surprise! The moment I let go of trying to control my drinking was the moment I came to understand that my drinking was out of control. The spiral began. The amounts and frequency increased and before I plunged into the abyss of hell, I was graced by a spiritual experience.

In the midst of a liter and a half bottle of wine -- I was nicely buzzed -- came the thought, clear as clear could be: "Oh my God, I am becoming my father." My father was an alcoholic and he basically drank himself to death. That was it. I couldn't drink another drop. I dumped the bottle down the drain along with the rest of my stash, and I have been sober since. That was a little over two years ago.

Yes, I had all the hallmarks -- cravings, blackouts, increasing tolerance, withdrawal, etc. -- yet I would not accept myself as an alcoholic until that moment of clarity. I don't know what your journey will be, but I hope you will come back and let us know how your drinking experiment goes. If you find you can drink without losing control, then more power to you. What I learned from painful experience is that anything I have to control is already out of control.
SusanLauren

franklymydear

Thanks for sharing your story, Susan! It's appreciated. Glad you had your epiphany. Well, I'll be hanging around here for a while no matter what the day after brings, to let you all know where my path has taken me.

Thanks again!

Toronto68

ClarkGable (ha ha), that sounds like a good idea, you can talk through what has been going on.

doda

Thank you so much for this statement, Toronto68, for me and (I'd guess) many others.

NewBeginning010

Yeah I get where you are coming from.. I have been there (most of us have) which is why you are getting some of the responses that you are. People are trying to help & share their experience, hopefully you wont have to go through what some of us did to get to the point of admitting powerlessness over alcohol (if you end up being as such).

You seem like an intelligent, kind, respectful person that needs to see of they can beat this thing. I found that it was more work fighting it in the end (my experience only of course).

I was like a mad scientist trying to come up with ways & patterns to try to control my drinking (not limited to but including: Lunar calendars, space/time continuum & the alignment of the solar system lol).

In the end this \/



=



=



Take care & glad to have you sharing your experience with us.

Cheers,

NB

franklymydear

Yeah, I've been there, haha! Thanks for the picture.

Norther

If I have one beer, I am going to have at least six or seven, and that's with an effort at control. Without that effort, it will be many more. I don't remember the last time I had fewer than six if I drank at all: I become a freaking beer-drinking robot. So, unless somebody regards six drinks a day as "moderate drinking," then moderate drinking is out for me. If you are an alcoholic, I suspect you'll find something similar. If youcan drink one or two a day, more power to you, but to me it's inconceivable as a practical possibility. Not to poach on your right to decide whether you're an alky, but I'd bet you'll find the same.

artsoul

:rotfxko NewBeginning - this was the first thread I read today and you and Norther have me cracking up!
____________________
And FranklyMyDear, I don't quite know what to say about your plan to maybe start drinking again. Guess I'm a little scared for you. And your personal thread makes it clear that the past few days have been really wonderful, and I don't want to see you lose that.

I had a few years of sobriety (a couple of times) and decided to "just drink on special occassions." When I started out, it was fine. I might not have another function for a few weeks and it didn't bother me. After a few months of this, I started ordering a glass (at the most two) of wine with dinner when I went to a restaurant. I prided myself on being able to do that. I got used to that and after another period of time, I would buy an occassional bottle of wine for entertaining and got used to having it in the house..... then....... and I guess you know where I'm headed.... The more I gave in, the more I wanted to do again.

The craziest part is that I KNEW what I was doing. I'd sat in AA meetings for years, knew the Big Book backward and forward, had even been to treatment and gotten help for my depression. It still didn't stop me from becoming very, very miserable and drinking 4-5 days a week. What started out with me just wanting to celebrate along with everyone else, ended up with me alone and not even wanting to be around people.

I'm sure I'm projecting my experience on you, but I just want to see you stay happy, healthy and FREE! It's not that I don't trust you - I just don't trust this disease. I did go out there again to try once more, so apparently I needed more convincing (read: PAIN). But I could have easily NOT made it back, either.

I hope you'll stick around, and I appreciate your honesty - I really do!:day6

Draciack

FranklyMyDear, thank you for bringing up a difficult and divisive topic. It's not easy taking the minority opinion. Discussions like this are useful and interesting

I have a question regarding physical dependency. It's my understanding that some people are predisposed to becoming physically dependent on alcohol, mainly because of the inability to moderate. For some people, their bodies never tell them when to stop, hence they drink more and eventually become physically dependent. For me, that's the sticking point. Even if I wanted to control my drinking and tried my damnedest to do so, I would be constantly fighting my physiology because my body just does not signal for me to quit. That green light is always on. For people with this predisposition, the stakes for drinking are much higher. It's not a good thing or a bad thing; to quote that tired cliche, it is what it is. I'm firmly convinced I can disentangle my psychological and physical dependencies to alcohol but even when I do, I still will never moderate my drinking. And if I can't moderate my drinking, I will always be at risk for future alcohol dependence. For me, that's game-set-match.

I hope your experiment works. Everyone's journey is different. Good luck and keep us posted

Bamboozle

No one is exactly the same.

Many people who end up here have been close to death. Many people here have had their lives destroyed by addiction. Many found this place as a last hope for survival. If it seems that most people have the viewpoint you mentioned above it is because they have been to hell. Some people here are still in that hell.

SR is a place for any and all people with various levels of addiction who want to quit. This doesn't include moderation. That may seem harsh or unfair, but sobriety/being clean is the focus of this website. With all that said, you are welcome here. Many people, myself included, have attempted moderation. If I was told to leave because I was using I'd probably be dead. I wish you well.