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View Poll Results: Your opinion in regards to being "Clean" or "Sober".
I can be "Clean" & still drink.
5.17%
I can NOT be "Clean" & still drink.
34.48%
I can be "Sober" & still drug.
5.17%
I can Not be "Sober" & still drug.
55.17%
Voters: 58. You may not vote on this poll

Clean&Sober_Poll

Old 02-02-2010, 10:59 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by postparty82 View Post
I know i wont be winning too many arguments with many people on this board as far as using marijuna goes...
Might have more to do with your 'sobriety' date than anything else. Less than 30 days? Please.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:03 AM
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I think it depends on the person. I have met some people with drug problems who can safely drink.

For me though, I think clean and sober have to be both. Although alcohol is what I finally came into the program for, it is really one in a series of additive behaviours and substances. Before I was an alcoholic, I was a pothead and only switched to alcohol when I moved to a country where I could not easily get pot. So yeah, for me, no unprescribed drugs or alcohol is what clean and sober means.
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:05 AM
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Ok I'll hit you up in 12 days. Will that make you accept me?

Is 17 days sober bad? Its been the most sober I've been in 6 years. Does my opinion have less value than yours because you have more posts and more days sober as me?
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:10 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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Huh

I thought clean and sober was clean and sober

some people call "sober" only drinking moderately

some people think pot is harmless and even beneficial to "sobriety" which strangely enough I thought was abstinence from mind and mood altering drugs

some people have opinions that "jive", which I thought went out with the movie "Shaft" while others have opinions that "jibe"

jive: definition

transitive verb, intransitive verb jived, jiving jiv′·ing
Slang to speak (to) in a way that is exaggerated, insincere, flippant, etc., esp. in trying to fool or mislead

jibe definition

intransitive verb jibed, jibing jib′·ing

1. to shift from one side of a ship to the other when the stern passes across a following or quartering wind: said of a fore-and-aft sail or its boom
2. to change the course of a ship so that the sails shift thus
3. Informal: to be in harmony, agreement, or accord: often with with accounts that don't jibe

So if we can't even agree with what a one syllable word consisting of only four letters means no wonder we have trouble with two syllable words and abstract concepts here such as:

Clean and Sober:

Clean refers to living without using drugs. Sober is used in the same context. However, the definition of “Sober,” also reveals a path, and a desired character. A path, and character, prescribed and modeled, by the founders of the 12 Step Fellowships. A path, and character, prescribed for spiritual living. Let us begin with the basics. Following is the dictionary definition for “Sober:”
1. Habitually abstemious in the use of alcoholic liquors or drugs; temperate.
2. Not intoxicated or affected by the use of drugs.
3. Plain or subdued: sober attire.
4. Devoid of frivolity, excess, exaggeration, or speculative imagination; straightforward: gave a sober assessment of the situation.
5. Marked by seriousness, gravity, or solemnity of conduct or character. Marked by circumspection and self-restraint.

The first, and second, parts of the above definition are about abstinence. The other three parts describe attributes. The person that displays these attributes is Sober, not just abstinent from chemicals, not just clean. His, or her, Sobriety is manifested in “all their affairs:”This person practices Sobriety, with a capital S.

This Sobriety with a capital S is manifested in the way people live their lives, not in what they say. Sobriety is life lived in the pursuit of simplicity, and “serenity;” a way of life that avoids “excess.” For excess is the way of addiction. Addiction is excess in everything. Excess in using chemicals, and in exaggerated thinking, and behaving. The addict is addicted to extremes, and drama, as much as he, or she, is addicted to a chemical. To incorporate the above described attributes into a Sober character is the antidote for addiction And, the acquisition of this character is the foundation of recovery.
Pot doesn't help with being "clean and sober" because by definition, doing drugs is neither, pot can help those feelings of anxiety, but that is using one drug to combat the effects of another, which, by definition, is neither clean nor sober.

Voting on what a word means doesn't change the meaning of that word, I can decide that poopybutt is a term of endearment and have a vote and a poll but it has no bearing on what the word means nor is the word subject to change just because I want it to mean "lovable"

Words mean what they mean

I'm with you Andy, this is confizzling
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:30 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by postparty82 View Post
Ok I'll hit you up in 12 days. Will that make you accept me?

Is 17 days sober bad? Its been the most sober I've been in 6 years. Does my opinion have less value than yours because you have more posts and more days sober as me?
It's not that it is "bad" but by your own admission you don't know how to get or stay sober, if you have been trying for 6 years, yet you only have 17 days, that is a pretty good litmus test for your blueprint of success.

As in does it work?

according to your own admission and your personal results, that would be....No

Sobriety is judged by personal success, as in we determine a methods success by it's actual success, and so far your method hasn't worked.

Your opinion has just as much value as anyone else on this forum, however, as it is the opinion of someone who can't get or stay sober, that is what your opinion "models".

Sobriety results are easily checked, as in if I want what you have (6 years of being unable to get sober) I will agree with your opinion and follow your suggestions, your results speak for themselves, if I want sobriety, I will listen to the other posters on this thread, there are representatives from AA, NA, and "a little of this, a little of that" on this thread all with clearly defined success stories, so there are many alternatives to view and methods to try to get sober.

So it's not that your opinion isn't valuable, if I want what you have I will do what you do (6 years of being unable to get sober), but since myself and from their stories, most every single poster on this thread has tried your method without success, we tend to listen to people with clearly defined and tangible success and long term sobriety, which is abstinence from drugs, not substituting one drug for another.

Most every alcoholic and drug addict I know in the world has tried your method without success, perhaps you will be the exception to the rule.

Good Luck
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Old 02-02-2010, 11:57 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by postparty82 View Post
Ok I'll hit you up in 12 days. Will that make you accept me?

Is 17 days sober bad? Its been the most sober I've been in 6 years. Does my opinion have less value than yours because you have more posts and more days sober as me?
Generally, I like to hear opinions from folks that have a little experience dealing with the subject at hand, be they doctors, lawyers or mechanics. I would not be inclined to seek medical advice, for example, from a pre-med student during his first semester in school. In any event, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has 'em, including me.

Accepting you and agreeing with your opinions are two entirely different animals. I accept that you believe what you believe, but I happen to think that your belief is a little delusional at best.
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:42 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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postparty

To me, noones opinion is less or more valuable that anyone elses - it's kinda how this whole recovery board thing works....I learned things from people on day one....hopefully we all arrive at something useful.

You're entitled to your opinion...and I'm entitled to think you're wrong
D
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Old 02-02-2010, 01:49 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Fair enough! We will see how it all works out!
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:08 PM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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The way I look at it is I didn't have a problem with alcohol before crack cocaine. I feel I can drink if I want to. And haven't done so in a year. I have no desire to. I choose not to. At first, in early recovery, I ws afraid to. I was afraid if I got a buzz off of alcohol, I'd be right back on crack. Since I took that first hit, of crack, while drunk.
I got drunk very rarely. The Irish and German in me gives me a strong tolerance. I don't feel anything from one or two tall beers (never have- and we're talking Amber Boch, not that Budweiser and yellow crap). And though I started out afraid to drink, I continue to not to so because it simply doesn't matter. But I am also not willing to commit to never drinking again. If I wanna, I can, and I know that I can do it safely. This is JUST me. Not trying to encourage anyone else to try it.
Anyway, why don't I want to commit? Because I don't want to. Just like I have no desire to stop smoking cigs. I've been through worse and I won't sweat small stuff (to me).
Everyone else's recovery experience CAN and DOES differ. And I totally respect it.
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:14 PM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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AA founder Bill W also took that "don't sweat the small stuff" approach to his smoking addiction after he quit drinking and not surprisingly it was smoking that killed him and sent him to an agonizing premature grave. IMO, a drug delivery system (cigarettes) that kills approximately 400,000 people every year in the US alone is not small stuff.
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:24 PM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Scare tatics don't work with me and besides, crack cocaine kills more people than cigarettes. In one way or another. Thank you for your concern, but smoking cigs is still small stuff to me.
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Old 02-02-2010, 04:10 PM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by CrackQuack View Post
Scare tatics don't work with me and besides, crack cocaine kills more people than cigarettes. In one way or another. Thank you for your concern, but smoking cigs is still small stuff to me.
I'm a smoker but still...ummm...

* Number of deaths: 2,426,264
* Death rate: 810.4 deaths per 100,000 population
* Life expectancy: 77.7years
* Infant Mortality rate: 6.69 deaths per 1,000 live births

Number of deaths for leading causes of death:

* Heart disease: 631,636
* Cancer: 559,888
* Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 137,119
* Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,583

* Accidents (unintentional injuries): 121,599
* Diabetes: 72,449
* Alzheimer's disease: 72,432
* Influenza and Pneumonia: 56,326
* Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 45,344
* Septicemia: 34,234
I mean right off the top of my head those 5 bolded are all caused or worsened by cigarettes


Cigarette Smoking

The 1982 United States Surgeon General's report stated that"Cigarette smoking is the major single cause of cancer mortality in the United States." This statement is as true today as it was then.

Tobacco use is responsible for nearly 1 in 5 deaths in the United States. Because cigarette smoking and tobacco use are acquired behaviors -- activities that people choose to do -- smoking is the most preventable cause of death in our society.
Crack isn't even in the top 100 IIRC
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Old 02-02-2010, 04:13 PM
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Addiction & Denial go hand in hand, that's all I can say.
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Old 02-02-2010, 04:34 PM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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I can't help but think we're getting a little off topic here guys.



D
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by sailorjohn View Post
Might have more to do with your 'sobriety' date than anything else. Less than 30 days? Please.
I find many people with 17 days seemingly a lot closer to God than others with 17 years. There is usually a lot of honesty and pure truth from newcomers whereas aged members often fall into the trap of complacency, moving backward in their recovery - maybe long into relapse just not having picked up yet.

I also learned not to judge others lest I be judged myself by the same or parallel measures.

a
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Old 02-02-2010, 07:40 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Ago View Post
Huh

I thought clean and sober was clean and sober

some people call "sober" only drinking moderately

some people think pot is harmless and even beneficial to "sobriety" which strangely enough I thought was abstinence from mind and mood altering drugs

some people have opinions that "jive", which I thought went out with the movie "Shaft" while others have opinions that "jibe"

jive: definition

transitive verb, intransitive verb jived, jiving jiv′·ing
Slang to speak (to) in a way that is exaggerated, insincere, flippant, etc., esp. in trying to fool or mislead

jibe definition

intransitive verb jibed, jibing jib′·ing

1. to shift from one side of a ship to the other when the stern passes across a following or quartering wind: said of a fore-and-aft sail or its boom
2. to change the course of a ship so that the sails shift thus
3. Informal: to be in harmony, agreement, or accord: often with with accounts that don't jibe

So if we can't even agree with what a one syllable word consisting of only four letters means no wonder we have trouble with two syllable words and abstract concepts here such as:

Clean and Sober:



Pot doesn't help with being "clean and sober" because by definition, doing drugs is neither, pot can help those feelings of anxiety, but that is using one drug to combat the effects of another, which, by definition, is neither clean nor sober.

Voting on what a word means doesn't change the meaning of that word, I can decide that poopybutt is a term of endearment and have a vote and a poll but it has no bearing on what the word means nor is the word subject to change just because I want it to mean "lovable"

Words mean what they mean

I'm with you Andy, this is confizzling
The question asked was "What is your defination of clean and sober", not what is AA and NA's opinion on what clean and sober is. For the record, this is the defination of sober from dictionary.com

so⋅ber  /ˈsoʊbər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-ber] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, verb
–adjective

1. not intoxicated or drunk.
2. habitually temperate, esp. in the use of liquor.

3. quiet or sedate in demeanor, as persons.
4. marked by seriousness, gravity, solemnity, etc., as of demeanor, speech, etc.: a sober occasion.
5. subdued in tone, as color; not gay or showy, as clothes.
6. free from excess, extravagance, or exaggeration: sober facts.
7. showing self-control: sober restraint.
8. sane or rational: a sober solution to the problem.

Many of the above answers would meet the first and second definations.
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by andyaddict View Post
I find many people with 17 days seemingly a lot closer to God than others with 17 years.
Hmmm not my experience at all, ive met a couple of people with approx 17 years who's sobriety i wouldn't want but never one with 17 days who's sobriety i would...
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Old 02-02-2010, 09:03 PM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by tyler View Post
The question asked was "What is your defination of clean and sober", not what is AA and NA's opinion on what clean and sober is. For the record, this is the defination of sober from dictionary.com

so⋅ber  /ˈsoʊbər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-ber] Show IPA adjective, -er, -est, verb
–adjective

1. not intoxicated or drunk.
2. habitually temperate, esp. in the use of liquor.

3. quiet or sedate in demeanor, as persons.
4. marked by seriousness, gravity, solemnity, etc., as of demeanor, speech, etc.: a sober occasion.
5. subdued in tone, as color; not gay or showy, as clothes.
6. free from excess, extravagance, or exaggeration: sober facts.
7. showing self-control: sober restraint.
8. sane or rational: a sober solution to the problem.

Many of the above answers would meet the first and second definations.
Yeah I get it, the definition you posted is the same as the definition I posted in my quoted text.

I guess my point was Sober is different then sober, and in the "recovery community" Sober means means abstinent as well as a lifestyle change, as does "Clean"

Clean and Sober means Clean and Sober, which means free of ANY mind or mood altering drugs taken for the purposes of recreation, it also means abstinent with a lifestyle change, I am aware that outside the recovery community and for people who aren't actually Sober the meanings of those words is different, However, if I tell a Judge or a Police Officer (which I have done) or announce at a meeting or pretty much tell anyone I am a Sober alcoholic, they know what I mean, and it's not "not drunk at the moment".

When I was drinking sober meant something different, it meant not drunk at the moment, so I guess for those still drinking and doing drugs their definition of sober is different then my definition, the definition I learned by being around sober people and being in the sober community, sober means not loaded right now for those that still use.

If I was an alcoholic that drank last night and I came to SR, I wouldn't introduce myself as a Sober alcoholic, I would introduce myself as an alcoholic who drank last night.

This site is even named SoberRecovery, I suspect it is not referring to being sober at the moment, but being Sober, as in "having abstinence as my achievement or goal" if that wasn't the case I could post here every day as a "Sober alcoholic" and get drunk every night and the next day be back as a Sober Alcoholic.

If I did that wouldn't I be lying?

So we know what sober means in this context, it means NOT DRINKING and it means not replacing one drug for another ie the marijuana maintenance program

When I was bartending in Sobriety I knew a guy who was "sober" because he "quit drinking" because he only drank beer and wine.

This thread reminds me of the conversations he and I used to have about the definition of Sober and Sobriety, apparently the definition people use is dependent on whether they still drink and use or not.

I learned something new today, interesting.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Ago View Post
Tobacco use is responsible for nearly 1 in 5 deaths in the United States. Because cigarette smoking and tobacco use are acquired behaviors -- activities that people choose to do -- smoking is the most preventable cause of death in our society.


I certainly don't trust government NOR health care officials on any statistics and all these numbers are motivated by someone's cause, the government, or health care industry. Because they are money motivated.
I know more people who lived, smoking cigarettes, than I do that drank, smoked crack, tooted cocaine, shot heroin, or popped pills. I see real world stuff. Not something that is possibly made up. I remember TV commercials and Media, from the government and our health care system saying the EXACT same thing about weight gain and obesity in society. So which is it? Smoking or obesity??? LOLOL.. Sorry, it was just something funny, to me.
My grandpa said "Never believe anything you hear and only half of what you see." I really like that phrase.
Anyway, I'd like to agree to disagree. Like I said, I don't sweat the small stuff TO ME. Meaning, -I-, and -I- alone, think it's small stuff. I did not imply it was small stuff to anyone else.
And I've said it in all 3 replies.. So ok, ok?
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Old 02-03-2010, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by yeahgr8 View Post
Hmmm not my experience at all, ive met a couple of people with approx 17 years who's sobriety i wouldn't want but never one with 17 days who's sobriety i would...
Really?!?

You've never came across someone new with arrows sticking out of their azz, hurting like he11, on FIRE for their recovery, and willing to go to ANY length for their recovery?

You've never witnessed someone coming in being brutally honest about themselves as compared to others, not concerned with telling ANYONE else how to do it, and seeking to understand rather than be understood?

How about someone willing to take suggestion, a living example of humility, open-minded, and itching to help out either setting up before or cleaning up after the meeting?

I've seen it, however it's sad when this enthusiasm gets lost after they get a couple things working back in their lives - car, job, girl(boy)friend.

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