Tazman53

miamifella I am not known real well for pulling punches, I kind of tell it like I see it from my experience.

I have one sponsee who started of Agnostic when we first started taking the steps together, he has progressed he says to being more of an arthiest, but he still has found a power greater then him self and is very spiritual. His primary problem was alcohol but he was pretty heavy into opiates as well, he has been clean and sober for over 2 years.

Another of my sponsee's is an alcoholic and also a former crack head, we are taking the steps together (He is just now starting on step 4), he has been clean and sober for over a year.

I know plenty of addicts who have stayed sober using AA and have AA sponsors. Is it the ideal sponsor/sponsee deal? Must be good enough, some of them have been clean for many years!

If you want to find a sponsor here is what I would suggest, go to some "Step Study" or "Literature" meetings, get there early and stay late, let people know that you are seeking a sponsor, if some one offers be open and honest with them about your struggles with the steps.

If both you and your sponsor keep open minds and go strictly by the Big Book and the 12X 12, I have a feeling that you may find what you seek.

Let me ask you just one simple question:

Are you WILLING to accept that there is something in the ether that is more powerful then you?"

You do not have to beleive in a damn thing, just be willing to believe in something.

keithj

Howdy miamifella. If you have a sponsor that tells you to work the first three steps on your own, then come see him for a 4th Step, find another sponsor.

There is a great guy in my local area that does this. He's found a solution through the steps, he's had the required spiritual awakening, he's got a great message, he's been sober 20 some years, and I like him a lot. But, this approach is lazy and does a dis-service to someone new to the steps.

Over and over, people that lack a solid foundation in the first 3 steps struggle with writing a thorough inventory in Step 4. They lack the needed power to see things honestly.

Two views going on here. One, you posted about there being no decision for Step 2, and one McGowdog posted from the Big Book, which is all about a decision. Some of us call that the 2nd Step Proposition.
"When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crises we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is or He isn't. What was our choice to be?"

Miamifella, that is all about a decision. A choice. Am I willing to believe? Do I now believe that their is a better path for me? Am I willng to follow it? That's all you have to know about God for now.

It really shows the difference between reading the Steps off the wall and getting into the book with a knowledgable sponsor.

I came into AA as a devout atheist. I knew that others believed in a higher power, but I did not. I had no need for it until I was crushed by a self-imposed crisis. I sponsor guys the same way I was sponsored. We spend some time reading the Dr.'s Opinion and the first 3 chapters and focus on the hopeless nature of the malady. It's only when the newcomer is firmly convinced about the rock and hard place of the physical craving and mental obsession, that we have need for Step 2.

My suggestion to you is to find a sponsor willing to sit down with you and a book and spend the necessary time. It doesn't take that long. Look for someone that talks about a spiritual solution and knows what Step 1 really means.

Now it's a decision again. Are you willing to find that person, even if you don't like them all that much? Are you willing to go to that length?

I had to go to that length. I had to find a sponsor who I didn't like much, but he had an answer. I didn't want anything to do with a higher power, but I became willing to believe in the possibility because I was hopelessly screwed. I couldn't hide behind my existing beliefs or bad sponsorship. I found a guy with a Big Book in his hand and he showed me how he got out from under.

Tazman53

I will second that!!!

A sponsors only real job is to help the new person take the steps.... All of the steps.

The sponsee I mentioned who today says he is an athiest and I spent a great deal of time on step 2, but he remained WILLING to beleive in a Power greather then himself and eventually he found that Power, he has since married and has a newborn son.

Look around a meeting of AA..... do you see people that are able to stay clean and sober? Is thier Power over alcohol & drugs greater then yours? Are you willing to beleive in them? That right there is all the beginning many need to begin the walk.

McGowdog

Why don't you stick to your own program and let Miami decide? We're just in here sharing our experience strength and hope.

Oh, and this forum is not for debating anyway. Some of us use the Program of Alcoholics Anonymous as our reference. It comes with a book and we don't debate the book. It gives us a set of instructions. You do what it says int there and you'll get a certain result.

It's good to know up front what A.A. is and what it is not. You can go to A.A. with or without God. You'll merely be asked to have an open mind either way. This is what we've been trying to say.

littlefish

Well, I am just chiming in here again. I just talked to my sponsor today. I was traveling and out of town for a few weeks, and we didn't speak for about a month.
I really like her as a sponsor: sometimes I think I have a 300 dollar an hour therapist for free thanks to AA. She is really fantastic.
But, you have to shop around. It is not simple finding a sponsor and I spent a few weeks feeling awkward and lost....
but I found one.
You have to take the steps and reach out. One of the things I have learned in recovery is that it won't be dropped into my lap. I have to go out there and look for it.

McGowdog

Well that's a shame. It's not A.A.'s fault that SMART, Secular alternatives, NA, CA, GA, etc. don't exist in the number that A.A. does. How's it going to ever grow if people don't start and support their own?

Are you saying you want to use the vehicle of the A.A. fellowship for your recovery because it's so readily available and/or convenient? Anybody? Now that I think about this, it may be why the fellowship is so far from what once was a tight fellowship... following the same "set of instructions" or Program.

You can do A.A. or not... as you all see fit. But don't tell me what to do or not. I know that I've got a hold of something that is working. I don't come in here to SR to get fixed. I'm merely trying to share what I've found.

Now I like what Taz says there. Two things jump out;

1) stick around and go to enough meetings and you will eventually find someone who will relate to/understand you.

2) You don't have to believe a damn thing, but try to be willing to believe something.

Something like that.

joedris

It seems that not too long ago someone was lamenting the fact that the original question posted by a blogger is too often lost through the infighting among members. The original issue was that there are too few people volunteering to be sponsors. It looks like we got way off the track here.

miamifella

I don't mind that the conversation has drifted. This is the first time I have ever been able to discuss this with people willing to respond and it is very helpful.

Two of my sponsors told me that you work steps 4 to 12. I do not see how the first three can be "worked" as they are written, so it made sense to me when they said that they were the ones that were "given."

People at meetings scare the heck out of me. The piercings, tattoos, promiscuity make me uncomfortable. This may be too big of a stumbling block. I do not know how much I would ever trust someone I met at a meeting.

AA is better, but because I never had a problem with alcohol I usually just listen at AA meetings.

Sorry to ramble, but this is making me sort out a lot of feelings about 12-step programs. I never had the chance to talk to anyone who knew them firsthand who actually answered back with reasoned responses.

McGowdog

Yeah, and then I volunteered to be the OP's sponsor way back in post #5 and I was turned down. So there ya go. I was graciously let off the hook or turned down, if you will, and I understood.

And the funny thing is, I'm not all gung-ho on sponsorship. I am a believer of finding a strong group where the group just does the work. But that might be even harder to find than a strong sponsor. I dog sponsorship, but it's only because I've found another way. But if you don't have a strong group, I suppose a mentor or sponsor would be the next best thing. Just don't burden your sponsor with being responsible for you. And on the other side of the fence, a sponsor...if there is such a thing... is merely a guide through the A.A. program via the steps and/or to point the sponsee to/towards God.

miamifella

McGowdog--You kindly offered and were turned down for good reasons.

I am sorry if I misunderstood, but are you part of any other fellowship than AA? I had the impression that you felt I should not be part of AA (because I have always been a teetotaller except when high on crack). I thought that you were probably right and that my sponsor should be part of NA, CA, or CMA.

Also, from what people are saying here and in other threads, a sponsor should have a more personal relationship with a sponsee. If it were just about the steps I think a long distance sponsorship would be okay. (The guy who says he will sponsor me when I get to step four is also long distance.) But from what people are saying here it should be someone I can speak to regularly by phone and face-to-face.

I thought it was odd when you said "No hard feelings" because I could not see any reason why you would have hard feelings. But this post makes me think that there is some way I offended you or some resentment that you have.

I am sorry if I said anything hurtful to you.

littlefish

Wow, you must have some pretty interesting meetings. One of the problems I have with my home meeting is that it is essentially a lot of boring old farts. No piercings, tattoos or what have you. My home group is pretty much polyester suits and it is not hard to fall asleep at the meetings. Thank God we have coffee.

Sorry to say that, but that is how it is.
But, on the other hand I love those boring old farts. They show the way. We need someone to show the way. Tonights meeting was really interesting because we had a couple of newbies. And I could see how all of us really wanted to share something that would make them come back. But, I don't think they will come back. Why?

Well, why? That is a good question. I think in their case, they were fresh out of rehab and they felt like AA was "pushed" on them. I came into AA totally free willing.
When you walk through the door into the rooms, it's a personal choice. It was for me. I wanted to be there.
But I get the feeling some people feel forced to be in AA, and then, no, it is not right.

AA has been great for me, but I understand that if I was pushed through those doors, I wouldn't like it. I like it fine, but I went through the door voluntarily.

miamifella

Part of the reason I feel more comfortable in AA even though I had no real problem with alcohol is that the people there are old farts.

I went to another fellowship tonight. My first meeting in a long time and it was just as depressing as I remembered. They people there were very troubled and really on the edge of survival. If I go to AA I feel sad because they all talk about bars and drinking which were things I always disliked and in the other fellowships I feel sad because the people there tend to be marginal folk just trying to put their lives together.

When I first got out of rehab the place I was had some really good meetings that were not listed anywhere. You had to know someone to find out about them. The people there were not as close to the edge. Some were business owners, doctors, etc. But now I live in Miami and do not know any of the "off-list" meetings. I am sure there must be some.

As it is, I am far from well off, but I am a professional with a lease, a car and a job. That make me better off than most of the people at meetings. But maybe that is why I feel so not part of their world.

Mark75

Yea Miami, I kind of get what you are saying...

No one is gonna turn you away from AA, but it may not work as well for you because you don't identify with being an alcoholic...

All I can suggest is keep going to different meetings and find some that have people more like yourself... go back when you find one... go early, stay late... ask them about other meetings they like... go to those meetings... It may take you awhile... I know some colleagues in my area that attend NA and if I were to go, I'd probably ask them where they go...

Or go to AA, keep your ears open for others that may also go to NA... ask them about meetings, how they handle the problem you describe.

Or keep going to the ones you go to and.... very important, probably the most important thing I can say.... listen for what resonates with you, what is similar, not different, from your own experience....

Mark

McGowdog

Naw Miami. I didn't approach it like you were doing anything really wrong.

You are looking for recovery from drugs/alcohol/whatever and you have a right to be shown a spiritual path for a solution just like any of us.

Now, you talked about having a sponsor who said that you'd be stuck in steps 1, 2, and 3, until your sponsor deems you fit to move on and do an inventory. I would fire that sponsor. That person is worthless to you. I could do a better job of sponsoring you than that. I'd like to have you send this yoyo my way so I can have a talk with them.

But you're probably right. I'm not well qualified to relate to you and/or identify if you're not an alky like me. I snorted coke. I smoked it in a pipe. I smoked it off of aluminum foil. It got me high. I liked it. But at the end of the night, I put it down, went home, and suffered the withdrawal. Now put booze in me and you've got another scenerio. We are perhaps different. The only recovery I know is out of the Book... the 12 Steps.

When I came back to A.A. from my last bender, I was told to just start writing my 4th Step. I wasn't told to do a 1st, 2nd or 3rd step. I was just given 21 days to finish an inventory. So I did 1, 2, and 3 on my own and got the inventory done in 22 days. What can I say? It worked.

It's up to you to find someone who will take you through the work or find a group of people who mean business.

tricky164

once i have put down the drugs, i dont need to identify with the drugs. what i need is to identify with recovery.

i am an addict through and through and getting an AA sponsor was the best thing i did. he never spoke to me about drink or drugs, just how to get well using the 12 steps.

hope this helps !

god bless.

McGowdog

Not how I was sponsored, but there ya go.

If you can get a 1st Step that way, then do it.

I had to be shown or to at least find some kind of connection with others who suffered the same malady as I did... physically, mentally, and spiritually. And war stories just didn't cut it. There are specifics to what happens to me when I put booze in my body that sets me apart from the norm... I also see the mental twists and blank spots that lie ahead through my own experience and through those others like me. Then the spiritual malady forward is something that we all probably have in common.

Once you get to a certain part in the book, they stop talking about booze in the body, then in the mind. Then they stop talking about booze in general.

pinpoint

I'm in the same boat, but keep paddling! They're out there, just give it time.

Tazman53

My sponsor took me through each step one at a time straight out of the BB, I was left with no doubt in my mind about step 1, 2, or that I was ready to take step 3. My sponsor and I both got on our knees for step 3 and I was ready.

I do the same with my sponsee's. Yes I was beaten, alcohol had taken me, it owned me out right, I knew from my own experience, the Doctor's opinion and from the BB that once I put alcohol or any mind altering drug into my body that I lost any bit of power I had and that my life became unmanageable. I also knew that it was going to take a Power greater then me to restore me to sanity, a Power that I was willing to seek guidance from and follow that guidance.

Could I have gotten this all on my own? I think not!!!! Now I have sponsored some men who were like me more then ready to take steps 1 thru 3 to heart, but still to be without a doubt and to reenforce my own knowledge we went through it step by step.

You know I have seen guys swithch sponsors in mid stream and thier sponsors start them right off at step one again.

Maybe I am old school, my sponsor is, but telling a newcomer to figure out steps 1 through 3 and then come back and see me is not right. But it has kept me sober and that is the path I lead my sponsee's down. It worked for me, Bill W., Dr. Bob and millions of others, why mess with a known commodity?

tammy711

McGowdog wrote: "Once you get to a certain part in the book, they stop talking about booze in the body, then in the mind. Then they stop talking about booze in general."

I am still waiting for that chapter! I find myself reading the same few paragraphs over and over. I do like the nightmare story and the "wives" one; my Big Book says 'first edition', but many of the pages quoted don't jive with my book.

McGowdog

Actually, I was wrong about the mention of booze in the book.

Pg 85: ...for alcohol is a subtle foe.

Pg 89: ... immunity from drinking as intensive work with other alcoholics.

Pg 90: ... if he does not want to stop drinking, don't waste your time trying to persuade him.

...and on and on. We just can't seem to get too far from it! Oh well.

God and booze!

Good deal! Thought you might like the Nightmare story.

Well if you have a 1st edition book you're rich. If you have a replica, you're still rich... in spirit. All you have to do is subtract 12 from the page number and they'll line up better.