getr345

WOW...

I guess you have it all figured out then huh?

crzylilmndfreak

***********Laying it out there and laying it out there, *defending* with a vengence is completely different in my mind.

I guess I don't understand your thinking Get and I hope I never do.

BTW. I am not arguing nor do I have an opinion on whether any of this was or is a relapse. It quickly became a debate and how many reasons you could come up with to defend your position.

As far as your argument in all of this and hoping someone else can benefit from this...I just hope that person is not scanning the forum looking for the excuse he or she needs, instead of working on their recovery.

Nuff said. *********


******WOW...

I guess you have it all figured out then huh? **********
______________

i think this poster is 100% right on, i also believe that you came with the intention of causing a debate, and you got one,... so there you have it, thrillilng, isnt it

1_day@_a_time

Get, have you noticed many of the posters have moved along?

You asked & they stated their feelings. You then debated it, I gather cuz you didn't like what they said.

When I mentioned defiance is the outstanding characteristic of many an alcoholic, you referred to your defiance when drinking, but defended it now.

Personally, I see your defiance, now.

In my recovery, I ask to be called on my stuff. When I am, I listen & strive hard to not take it personally & find a way to grow. My way does not work, never has.

I take direction from my sponsor, even when I don't really like what he says. Period.

Rationalizing, defending, justification........the literature of AA talks about how I do this drinking or sober, over and over and over.

It also very clearly says in step 12, on pg 124, doctors studied alcoholics not to find how different we were; they sought to find whatever personality traits, if any, this group of alcoholics had in common. "These distinguished men had the nerve to say that most of the alcoholics under investigation were still childish, emotionally sensitive and grandiose.

ALL of these traits are me in old character. All of them.

In recovery today, one of my key goals is the application of spiritual principles, as a way of life.

And to align my will with God's.

My instincts will fight it all..........and object to the idea of personal powerlessness.

I MUST hit bottom (emotionally, physically, mentally & spiritually) in sobriety & be in pain in order to grow. I MUST admit complete defeat and SURRENDER to my thinking & my way of life. I MUST accept my devasting weakness & all its consequences. Until I so humble myself, my sobreity -- if any -- will be precarious.

I MUST have the willingness to be willing.

You just got a few basic principles of AA......principles that save my life every moment of every day, IF I get out of the way & allow it to happen.

I hope some of this has helped, here's one that helps me daily:

God,

Take me where you want me to go,
Help me meet who you want me to meet,
Tell me what you want me to say,
And keep my out of your way.

The road in early sobriety (and now, lol) can be tricky, I made tons of mistakes and still do.........but I'm better off when I'm not trying to run the show.

Take care Get!!!

getr345

Sure have, and it's OK. Look, I'm just trying like everyone else here to fix their shattered life, to find a way to live every day proud of the decisions I've made and look forward to the next day and the next to do it again, sober. It's not easy for anyone in recovery, and when I think about it, I remind myself that what I am doing (what we are ALL doing) is very hard, and occasionally deserves a pat on the back and the recognition of a job well done. Some have expressed exactly that in this thread and I truly thank them for that.

I made a mistake taking those pills. I know that, I recognize that and I'm gonna take something from it, in terms of learning what not to do again, moving forward. I do not feel like I have made a mistake with my choice to occasionally consume O'Doul's but I have truly heard others express their concern about it and it resonates. It really does. It's an added layer of protection in my mind, and I appreciate it being there, so thanks to everyone who took the time to care enough to express that.

And as for the TAT, well, I'll never forget the man who inspired it & I'll never regret getting it.

gravity

I agree. I don't think that non-alcoholics really get this. It's not simply a matter of quitting drinking and just getting over it. I have been sober for 17 months and I'm sure that many people think I'm over it. While I have not seriously thought about having a drink in a long time, I am still learning to deal with lifes challenges stone cold sober. It is quite a bit easier but I still have those days. However, for the most part life is good!

We should all recognize the accomplishment of another day sober. We can't take this for granted or we will become complacent.

This is all good but I think the real question to ask yourself is if there is still some lurking notion that you can safely use alcohol (or drugs). This is something that I ask myself often.

Are you still committed to a sober life? Still fully convinced that you cannot handle alcohol?

I'm not saying that you are not committed to your sobriety. Who can really tell from a few paragraphs on an internet forum? These are questions only you can answer.

Keep moving forward!

getr345

Yes and yes!! Definitely...

And I can honestly say there currently is no lurking notion (or conscious desire) to use alcohol again. I do not entertain these thoughts, and they really do not enter my head. I'm so much happier without alcohol. I'm really glad this is the case and I hope that it stays this way, because I am well aware of how thoughts and feelings can change in the future or even at a moments notice but for today, the answer is an honest to goodness no. I think if anything, I am more at risk for the notion that I could safely (properly) use pain pills again in the future, if even just in a medical setting. The last two slips I have had involved the use of pain pills and as noted in this thread, I deal with daily pain, and as life goes on, there is a greater and greater chance that this will increase and the need for true pain medication will increase. Or I could have an operation, or something like that. Can I deal with the pain without pills? Will I even try? Or can I deal with the use of pills for pain without becoming hooked or otherwise dependent? I don't know. What I do know is that the daily use of alcohol in my past made for some really bad decisions, and alcohol truly was the gateway to other drugs for me, so with alcohol out of my life (and my head clear and my heart happy) I at least have a better chance now to do the right thing than ever before. Doesn't make me immune from mistakes but it definitely brings down the chance of making one as far as drugs and things like that go...

sfgirl

I might be reading this wrong but there is something about the way you phrased some things in here that made me nervous for you. Here me out. This is just my advice because I used to think this way and had to shift my thinking in order to stay sober. Take it or leave it.

The first thing that made me slightly nervous was this:

The thing is for me there have been many times where I have been unhappy sober— unhappy in general or unhappy to be sober. I can't base my sobriety on how I feel about sobriety— if I did that I would relapse quickly. I have to be sober no matter what. No matter how I feel. So if in a couple months you are feeling crappy, you can't start your mind going "well, I feel even worse than I did when I drank, I may as well start hitting the bottle again." You have to commit to sobriety no matter what. Maybe that is what the surrender is about or step one. But trust me if you base it on feeling or thoughts, those are things that quickly change. (But again, if you are feeling crappy in a few months, work through it you will feel good again).


The other thing has to do with the pain pills. You need to make a decision about those now. Tons of people have chronic pain and do not take narcotics. I am sure a lot of them are on this site. There are many ways of managing pain. I am not saying you have to forgo the narcotics but if I were you I would make a decision about them now and stick to it instead of debating it each time the issue comes up. If you are sober does that include narcotics for you? Answer that question honestly, not with your addict brain and stick to it.

If you wait for each situation to arise, you run the risk of letting your addict brain take over and do the rationalizing for you. Do you see what I mean by that? It took me a long time to understand that my mind could play tricks on me, that my mind could convince me that anything was "justified." If I waited until each high stress moment and then asked myself to debate whether or not I should use something that would easily take the edge off I am sure my mind would give me the easy way out, with all the brilliant reasons, and they would be brilliant, I mean really brilliant. The thing is they would not be in line with my sobriety. I have to turn off that rationalizing part of me and just keep going with what I decided to do 8 months ago and stay sober— not argue with myself.

I already see you doing the rationalizing slightly in your post, talking about your chronic pain, etc. If you would like to know why this post has gone on so long, three pages now, it is because you keep shooting back with more rationalizations. You have to click out of that part of you. I guarantee you it is detrimental to sobriety. I stayed in there for three years teetering between sober and drinking and attempted moderation. It was hell and so much wasted energy. Just shut it off. You don't have to listen to what anyone else has to say. Just surrender.

keithj

sfgirl posted:"The first thing that made me slightly nervous was this:

Quote:
I'm so much happier without alcohol. I'm really glad this is the case and I hope that it stays this way, because I am well aware of how thoughts and feelings can change in the future or even at a moments notice but for today, the answer is an honest to goodness no.

This is a really good point to bring up. I sat at a meeting last night that had an unusual number of people in early sobriety. The topic kind of determined itself when a guy shared how depressed and spiritually dead he felt at a couple of weeks sober. Others chimed in with their agreement of how hopeless and demoralized they felt. They all felt great after treatment or rehab, but it slowly faded into this awful malaise. None of them was actively doing step work. Then one guy, full of smiles and good cheer, shared how he was doing grat, doesn't miss it at all, life is so much better. He doesn't pray or anything, and knows he probably should work the steps, but right now it's great, so he'll get around to doing the work when he needs to.

Know which guy I was most concerned about? The AA Big Book talks about this guy at the top of page 152, compares him to the boy whistling in the dark to keep his spirits up. This wasn't written based on conjecture. It was based on the observation of many others who were in that boat and ended up drunk.

If you are miserable and you know it, and you are sure you will drink again unless something changes, you may be motivated enough to take the action required. If you are under the delusion that alcoholics can just put down the drink and be happy joyous and free without anything more required, you are more than likely unwilling to seek any solution.

The result of that, almost without exception, is a very painful awakening to the reality of alcoholism.

That wonderful, elated feeling of not having to drink that comes in early sobriety almost always fades. Don't believe me. Just read any of the posts on the newcomers forum from people who felt just like that, and then disappeared, and then come back saying they are starting all over after a 2 month (or 5 year)bender. I see it over and over and over. That's the only reason I beat the drum of finding a real solution to our common problem.

getr345

When my friend was killed in March, it was a big test for me and my new sobriety. I certainly felt as low as I had in a while, in fact I was devastated. When I heard the news I was in a restaurant waiting for some take-out food, I was near the bar and almost immediately after getting the news, and as if by design to test me, the bartender looked at me and said "what can I get ya to drink?" I knew I was in the whirlwind and I knew the importance of passing this test. Of course, as bad as I felt I did not drink. Instead I went to the bathroom and puked and cried. I was that stricken by his sudden death. A couple days later while out celebrating his life with some friends I was in a restaurant we all loved and was offered all you can eat pain pills by a guy who was hanging out with us. I refused. Days after that at the memorial, I watched as others drank beer and told stories and got drunk to numb their pain. I was so proud of myself for feeling my feelings and respecting his life (and mine) enough to stay sober through it, and beyond.

I'm ready for that next level of advice and counsel as is being offered here, I appreciate it, and know that I need it. And want it. Not a day goes by that I do not think about my sobriety, my recovery, and about strategies to maintain it. I know I am not out of the woods, and never will be. I know it's a never ending struggle, and I'm OK with that. The future scare me sometimes, the unknown of it, wondering if I can stay the course... but it's a much less frightening future (more hopeful of course) than it was just 8 months ago when I could actually see what my future was...drunkenness, drunk driving, addiction, drug use, arrest, declining health, an unfulfilled life of regret, a miserable death...

getr345

For what it's worth, this has been and is my first attempt at getting sober.

Ever!!

I never tried to quit anything except smoking cigarettes, and never tried to control my drinking. I just drank and drank and it just got more and more, worse and worse. Some drugs I kind of outgrew, others (like pot) I did habitually until just recently.

I came to the dance with no recovery/rehab history, no past failures or successes to speak of. Just a history of heavy drinking, addiction, and recreational drug use. I drank and partied and did and what I wanted for about 20 years and then along came the evening of 10/4/08 and it was the tipping point for me. Miserable with who I had become and was becoming, I thought I should at least try living a different way before considering more extreme alternatives like rehab or AA. Never did I rule them out, I just wanted to see if I could quit drugs and alcohol by myself and with some online support. And try I have, and I think I've had some really good successes, some unexpected benefits, some slips along the way, a lot of personal growth, a lot of gained insight, and I've even inspired at least one other person to change his own life of alcohol abuse. By and large I have held true to progress not perfection. I'm very proud of this.

So maybe this will work for me, maybe it won't. Maybe I have greater failures ahead of me, bigger mistakes to make, and much greater lessons to learn because of it all. I don't know. I hope this is not true. I hope I can avoid all of that and just stay clean, live a sober life the way is supposed to be lived. I think I'm on the right path and I think maybe I can do it. I'm grateful to everyone who has helped me along the way and continues to help me. I really am.

keithj

You know Get, that's an entirely reasonable approach. I certainly didn't become an AA book thumper as my first attempt at getting sober. I had to fail with willpower, Drs., shrinks, pills, IOP, rehab, and AA without the steps before I got willing.

I became an AA book thumper when I underwent an utter and complete psychic change as the result of taking those suggested steps. I love the life that change has brought. As a side benefit, alcohol is no longer a problem.

1_day@_a_time

go to AA or SOME sort of formal recovery program.

AA extreme?

so is the value of your life, yes?

really, AA has LITTLE to do with not drinking, it helps, lol, but it's not the primary purpose.

getr345

I did go to a meeting after like 65 days without drinking to see what it was like and because I was going with my friend who had also just quit drinking. It was a good experience, but (like religion for me) it just didn't stick. I didn't have that WOW moment where I just knew I'd found the people that could help me and the place where I felt most comfortable and where I needed to be. I feel in some ways like I have found that here on SR. I know, I should have gone to more meetings and maybe I will but for better or worse I tend to take a pragmatic approach to things.

For example, if my transmission was acting up, the first thing I would do would be to check the fluid. See when it was last changed. Make sure it's at the right level. If it was at the right level and it was still acting funny, I'd probably change the fluid (and even add some of that Lucas brand additive to the mix) because it's been a while since I did that, and then see how it behaves after that. That would probably take care of it and usually does but if that didn't work and the problem got worse, I'd probably take the car to a transmission shop to get a more detailed diagnosis. Depending on what he said and how much it might cost to repair it and prolong the inevitable, I'd probably drive the car until the transmission went then I'd have it rebuilt, or possibly even replaced but I would do neither of these two things right away, or before the transmission failed. I'd follow what seemed to me like the logical steps, and the logical first steps for me were: 1) stop drinking 2) stop smoking and taking drugs 3) improve diet and exercise.

I know that other people have had success with this approach and it's people like that to whom I currently aspire, the people who one day decided to give it all up, and somehow did; never looking back. Time will tell if that's the kind of person I turned out to be or if I have many many more steps (12) to take...

1_day@_a_time

"I did go to a meeting". Seriously, ONE?

You didn't give it a chance........

"if my transmission was acting up.......W T Flip ? ? ?

Dude, ROTFLAMO..........uh, your serious here too, huh?

The intellectually self sufficient......

I can say, I've heard it all.

I'm going to go ahead & click on the unsubscribe link now......really, I mean it with all sincerity, I wish you the best.

My program includes being of service to those who want to recover. That's where I'll focus.......sorry, but I can't hang.

getr345

I neither want nor need AA in my life right now but if in the future I do, people like you are advertising exactly what I fear about it, and am skeptical about and that is that AA people will do what you have done here to me: decide that I (or some other newcomer) am just too difficult to handle, and not worthy of your time and effort, so you just walk away, laugh at me, and hit ignore. It's that kind of rejection by the people who claim to be willing and able to help that can really turn people off, and you've just done it.

You've heard it all, but you just can't deal with me...

ya, thanks...

But no thanks.

I'm doing fine without YOU and without AA. If I need either one of you in the future, I'll not be too proud or too jaded to asked for help. I know where you stand so for now, I'm doing what I need to do, and what I know how to do, and what I can do, and for now, that's enough.

Dee74

I think this thread's got a little off track Get.

I hope you keep doing what you're doing and continue to monitor yourself and your recovery and think honestly about stuff. It's much harder to go wrong if you can see where you're going.

and don't close any doors - everyone's human, we're all not perfect - doesn't mean necessarily our various programmes or our recoveries are no good...and I say that as a non aligned non AA type person

D

Mark75

Getr

I am AA... I believe that you should have the dignity to decide for yourself if you are an alcoholic. I believe too, that you should come to AA if you are indeed a real alcoholic and you want what AA promises...

I believe that there are many shining examples of AA's here on SR, just as there are in the real world. Occasionally you will find an AA that does not resonate with you... Do not lose sight of the forest for the trees...

I guess I get what 1_day is saying, but, perhaps it wasn't what you needed to hear. I'm sorry to see things get negative here... I believe that you are sincere in your desire to quit drinking, drugging, etc...

Congrats on your ability to be honest with yourself... It was your quest for rigorous honesty that brought you to post your original question... it was a good post. Maybe we ought to just move on.

Mark

getr345

I agree but right now I don't know if I am or not. I don't really know how to tell if I am or not. I read the Big Book several times and after reading it, my feeling is that AA would not define me as a real alcoholic, but a Step 1 drinker I think they called it, a heavy drinker. I know that many people obsess over whether they are a real alcoholic or not and use this as the barometer to decide whether or not it would be OK to drink again. I draw no such distinction. Real or not, I drank way too much and needed to stop. So I made a life commitment to never drink again, and I'm off and running. I have read and read and correct me if I am wrong, but no "real" alcoholic could ever (or ever has) simply walked away from booze forever without a relapse. Just does not happen, right? The person was never a "real" alcoholic to begin with. Well, I'm testing that theory right now. If I drink again, that is clear evidence of my alcoholism and will be further evidence in support of anyone who claims I need AA. I will not argue one bit if that comes to pass. Further, I have read that any real alcoholic would probably not be able to consume O'Doul's without the trace amounts of alcohol contained within the bottle having the effect on them of wanting to drink real beer, or of starting the obsession (the allergy) in their mind. I could be wrong about this, but again, I'm testing this theory, and so far so good. In a sense, I believe that am doing everything a person could reasonably be expected to do to determine if they are a real alcoholic or not, without obsessing about it; and short of trying some controlled drinking which I have no interest in doing.

I'd rather just not drink.

Mark, thanks for your post & for the kind words.

Mark75

Getr... that last part is important, not everybody wants AA

Hey, you are doin' fine... Being happy, that's what's important, it seems that you are right now... don't sweat the small stuff... O'douls, whatever...

And there is always SR!

Keep posting!

Mark

MROBI

hi, i think it is wrong of u to take those pain pills. they were not perscribed to u by a dr. and that my friend is illegal, and wrong. and the fact remains that u did drugs, so u cant have it both ways, ur either sober or your takin drugs, and by that i mean drugs not prescribed by a dr. i dont recomend u or anyone else take illicit drugs and abuse them....

and for the tattoo i dont really like it or understand it. why is the flag of our country in 3 peices, i think that is distastefull and disrespectful.