Jules62

^ amen!

IO Storm

Thoughtful and provoking Lenina!

And I do appreciate the thread Tommy.

When I speak of a Higher Power in my life, I am sharing my experience..

my story. Part of my experience, strength and hope with others. I am

clean and sober for two years and three months when I should by all

odds not be here. I do believe there is a lower power as well..my own

personal belief...a dark force, a "rat voice of addiction", a pull that brings

circumstances at times that can trigger me. But..I do not force my beliefs

on others. If anyone wants what I have found..so be it.

The important thing is...that I continually remember patience, tolerance,

and kindness, and to practice sending out goodwill to my brethren..

other recovering people.

tommyk

Most respectfully - you are grossly mistaken. No offense.

I began the thread to help people who want help regarding the Higher Power concept.

tommyk

This is just a personal observation, and I expect to be trashed for making my opinion known, so feel free.

I suspect that some of the same people making fun of others here will be the same people who post seeking help for some issue of their own in the future.

Remember your disrespect & joviality toward a serious subject, and your disrespect toward other people seeking recovery, the next time your own problems may arise.

Rest assured though, no matter your attitude now, WE will be here to help you if/when you need US.

I forgive you... I've been there myself, though hopefully never again.

Anna

Okay, we need to keep this thread focused on the main discussion point.

It's not alright to be criticizing other members for having different opinions.

Please stick to the point.

benblesed5

Intelligence = Knowledge gained through perspectives
Wisdom = Knowledge gained through experience

As an example for this:

"Intelligence is knowing that a tomato is a fruit.
Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad."

I myself, had to accept a power greater than I to allow wisdom of all I had been through to connect me to a better way. As long as I stayed self centered, intellectually able to see me as the "center of the universe" I intellectually justified my behavior, regardless of the damage done to others and myself.

The wisdom I attained from my HP, the 12 steps of AA, and others gave me a life of sobriety, happiness and freedom from my own intellect, which wasn't allowing me to use my experiences in life to make wise choices. Just my experience, strength and hope on the topic and not a slam on others or their intellect.

paulmh

I went and dug this out, I posted it a year or so ago -

When I read this I really liked it, because it seemed to describe quite well my experience - although I'm not the most joyful toddler in the sandbox . That said, I wouldn't want to call my HP "Joy". It's too familiar...

This little syllogism sorted the thing for me - if I die, the universe continues. If the universe dies, I die too. Therefore I depend on the universe more than the universe depends on me - so it must be a "higher power" than me - now whether it's benign or not, I don't and can't know! But AA teaches me that my alcoholism is not something wrong with the universe, but rather something wrong with me. Yet strangely, I don't fix it entirely directly - rather I fix it by recognising that I am part of something greater, and that I have suffered from an illusion of separation and isolation, and by trying to find a way to live in some degree of harmony with "the greater" I can begin to sort this problem. All I can tell anyone who gives a sh!t is that I don't understand it but it does work!

doorknob

Tommy,

I don't believe that your original post was intended to start a debate. But, SS and I responded with legitimate questions and your answer in italics was condescending and patronizing and did not address the question we posed.

Our replys:

Your responses:

We're not trying to hate on you or salt your game, bro. That certainly wasn't the intention of any of my posts. And I don't feel that anyone has made fun or has anything to be forgiven for. We're honestly trying to find a way to make this meaningful for us. Why? Because we need the f2f support and structure that meetings have to offer. Some of us just aren't spiritual in any traditional sense. That doesn't mean we are trying to make excuses or don't want recovery. It's not our disease speaking. And it surely doesn't mean we are going to die. It's just the way we are and we get sober too. We don't want to be changed, and we don't want to be tolerated, patronized, or condescended to. We want to be accepted within the group, so we don't have to always hide in the 'closet' or stay at home when we would rather be with other recovering people.

Anna, I hope it's okay. I really wanted to address Tommy's post to try to provide some understanding of where some of us are coming from.

Paul J

adore79

I have really been struggling with the HP concept so any opinions or information I can get is much appreciated. I especially like the idea that an HP could be the feeling of hope and love I get from people at SR, kinda like what HeavyJ was talking about. That was really helpful.

freya

OK let's try this -- If I am looking for advice on how to fix my car, am I more likely to trust the opinion of a long-time, successful auto repair man or a make-up consultant? (Not to say that once in awhile one might not come accross a make-up consultant who is awesome at auto repair, but, if their career history was all you knew upfront about the people, whose opinion would hold more weight with you?)

If you were actually to read my first post carefully all the way through to the end, you would see that I was developing a point about the limitations of intellect as I've experienced them when dealing with/working in/trying to develop oneself in the spiritual realm. With that goal in mind, it is certainly not unreasonable to assume that the fact that I have been very strong in and had a lot of success in working in the intellectual realm in many areas of my life pretty much all my life, is indeed very relevant to what I might or might not "know" about the limitations of intellect -- it doesn't necessarily make me right, nor did I say it did, nor does it even imply that every single person with similar credentials would agree with me, but it does "add some weight" to my opinion....especially as, if one has a little background about my experience, one might easily expect me to be biased in favor of intellect, whereas, in this particular case, I was making the point that, in my experience, intellect has really not been of much help or use in "finding" spiritual solutions.

The fact that I state "my credentials" so-to-speak in relation to what I am about to say on a particular topic does not in any way imply that I am "better" than anyone else in any general or absolute sense -- just as the fact that I would personally give more weight to the opinion of the auto mechanic than the make-up consultant when it comes to fixing my car in no way means that I think he is a better person or has more human value in any absolute sense, nor does it even imply that I would be likely to give his opinion more weight in any other situation or on any topic other than auto repair.

As to what you or anyone else does or does not do spiritually, that is really not any of my business, nor did I claim to know anything about it or say anything about it in my post. I'm not sure why you or anyone else feels compelled to "make it about you" or to read things into it that are not there.

When I take time to write something -- or in general when I take time to really "talk" to people (not counting like chit-chat with the clerk in the grocery), I usually do so carefully and thoughtfully, looking to connect with those people who are also willing to put care and thoughtfullness (not necessarily of the intellectual variety but of some type) into their reading, their thinking and their own communication (whether written or verbal)....I don't really see how it is possible for people to "get anywhere" or "learn anything" or to grow personally through a conversation if they aren't willing to do that...and for me, I know that when I start to take things personally and allow myself to get all emotinally triggered by them, that pretty much negates my ability to to be careful, thoughtful, and thorough about anything.

freya

freya

ooops....51Anna:P I apologize for not seing your comment until just now...I logged on earlier this AM and was writing between appointments and didn't see some of this AM's posts until just now....

SelfSeeking

I have 3 days sober. I found this site a little over 2 weeks ago. Sure, when I first came in I wasn't going to touch AA with a 10ft pole because I've had religion shoved down my throat for most of my life and now I try to avoid the whole topic whenever possible. That was before I relapsed 4 nights ago and found myself struggling to see the point of MY existence, let alone the hypothetical HP. Let's say it made me willing to give AA, the Moonies, or any other freaking group that claims to have some success in rehabilitating alkies, an honest look before blowing them off.

I came to this thread open to what you were talking about- a higher power of my understanding. I didn't appreciate what I interpreted as a snide little aside to "stop intellectualizing". I'm really happy to have found others yesterday who were more open to listening to what I had to say, and sharing their thoughts, rather than patting me on the head and sending me on my way.

paulmh

Hey self-seeking, I've seen your posts around and I really like what you're bringing to the party, many thanks for posting.

I think the instruction to stop intellectualising always causes us to bristle, maybe for good reason. I take it to mean this.

I can lie beside the swimming pool reading about learning how to swim. I can ask people about learning how to swim. I can look on the internet for info on my pda. I can write about swimming. I can discuss the different strokes, water densities, depths, relative salinity. I can talk about what to wear and what not to wear. But there's no substitute for getting in the water.

Hope that doesn't come off as patronising, just my take on the whole "intellectualising" thing.

SelfSeeking

Freya: My name is Katie and I'm an alcoholic.
When it boils down to it, what I am in the rest of my life really does not matter here. So I try to leave it out as much as possible.
Just sayin.

SelfSeeking

Thank you... that helps It's a lot easier to talk about recovery and theorize about it than actually do it, that's for sure...

scaredykat

I personal believe that what ever works for you; Do it! If you believe in a HP fine. If not that's fine too. Just don't pick up that 1st drink is the most important thing to do if you don't want to go back to the way you were living before.

Me personally- I do have a HP and i couldn't stay sober without him and all the other tools I use to stay sober.

Barb

RK2007

No it doesn't. The word you yourself have used, 'opinion' - says it all really.

Opinions only carry as much weight as the person who reads them will allow them to carry, no matter what you say or what you claim to know. That doesn't just go for you, that goes for everybody.

RK2007

I agree Barb.

tommyk

There are numerous 'tools' we can each use to promote our recovery.

The Higher Power concept is one of these tools.

Not all tools work for everyone, and none of the tools guarantee success.

It has been my experience that when I try as hard as I can to use all of the tools available for me, my own recovery is enhanced.

But if I don't try as hard as I can, and I don't use ALL of the tools available to me, I achieve less than desirable results.

So in sharing my experience, strength, and hope - are you using all of the tools possible toward YOUR recovery, or do you pick & choose only the tools that you like, maybe criticizing & ignoring some of the tools due to personal prejudice?

Just a thought to consider, thanks for allowing me to share.

RK2007

What difference does it make? If what people are doing works for them, why should they question if they are picking and choosing tools or not?

You're basically saying that you are right anybody who's not doing it your way is wrong - that they're missing out on the best tool, the one you know about.

What if I was to turn that question around on you and ask you to ditch AA and 'consider' doing what I'm doing because it works for me? Just a bit of advice based on experience? Would that be right of me?

What you're doing is wrong and you're trying to paint it up as friendly advice. I don't see what asking those kinds kinds of questions has to offer anybody in recovery, especially vulnerable people just starting out.

If I were you, I'd examine my motivations for that Tommy.

People will know what is right or wrong for them based on their own beliefs and the progress they make using whatever tools they choose.