Constructive Critism
Looking For Myself...Sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Where the heart is
Posts: 10,209
Constructive Critism
Ok..I have had a whole lot of this. So I am very familiar with the receiving end of it.
But me being so early in recovery. I feel bad giving it.
I feel like I am being judgmental. Or that I have no business giving any.
Why I am posting this is. In group today. There is a kid that for the past week has ..what sounds like to me. Been making excuses. Excuses why he still uses. Excuses why he wont do what he has to. Just a whole truck load of things to prolong the point of being there.
One minute he'll say he never wants to use again. He doesnt even feel the urge to use. And he feels so good being sober. But in the same breath he is saying I relapsed yesterday. Now he has said this everyday in the past week.
So the counselor asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say about his share.
So I am the queen of excuses and fooling myself. So I did say I hear alot of excuses coming from him. And I made it clear I didnt mean it in a bad way. I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point.
And others chimed in and said the same thing I did.
Ok So why do I feel so bad for saying it?
Even tho he seemed to agree and take it well.
Recovery is so confusing sometimes.
Any thoughts.
I can take the critism now too.
I need opinions.
But me being so early in recovery. I feel bad giving it.
I feel like I am being judgmental. Or that I have no business giving any.
Why I am posting this is. In group today. There is a kid that for the past week has ..what sounds like to me. Been making excuses. Excuses why he still uses. Excuses why he wont do what he has to. Just a whole truck load of things to prolong the point of being there.
One minute he'll say he never wants to use again. He doesnt even feel the urge to use. And he feels so good being sober. But in the same breath he is saying I relapsed yesterday. Now he has said this everyday in the past week.
So the counselor asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say about his share.
So I am the queen of excuses and fooling myself. So I did say I hear alot of excuses coming from him. And I made it clear I didnt mean it in a bad way. I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point.
And others chimed in and said the same thing I did.
Ok So why do I feel so bad for saying it?
Even tho he seemed to agree and take it well.
Recovery is so confusing sometimes.
Any thoughts.
I can take the critism now too.
I need opinions.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hicktown, PA
Posts: 1,479
Why do you feel bad for saying it Chiy? Don't know precisely, but when we are in using mode, how often are we straightforward, honest, open, helpful-even-when-it-hurts people? If you are like me, never...we lie, we cheat, we steal, we say anything to get what we want, and that seems "normal". I think being direct and honest is just a new mind set we need to adjust to.
No worries here from what I can see....good job sharing openly. You are going great, hon. Your posts always help me. Thanks
Love Jomey
No worries here from what I can see....good job sharing openly. You are going great, hon. Your posts always help me. Thanks
Love Jomey
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Dallas, TX
Posts: 300
I think it sounds like you're doing exactly what you're supposed to be doing. I don't think comments given or received in a group setting are always supposed to sit comfortably with us, but that doesn't mean they aren't needed or shouldn't be heeded. The fact that people agreed with you tells me that you were probably right in saying what you did and the first one in your group who had the courage to say so.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Riverton, Utah
Posts: 48
I think what you said was exactly what needed to be said. I feel like it is the responsibility of the group to be straight up. If your jacket is on fire, I am going to tell you it's on fire and I expect you to do the same for me. That isn't judgment it is love.
Great job and I think you should be very proud of yourself!! You are doing a wonderful Chiy!
Great job and I think you should be very proud of yourself!! You are doing a wonderful Chiy!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
Sounds to me like the group is working the way it's supposed to. The way that you see yourself in others and realize that it's the same thing with a different name and face puts it back on you. Seeing that someone else is struggling and why they're struggling leads you to the roots of your struggles too.
All the while it's showing that the best way to stay clean is to help someone else stay clean.
All the while it's showing that the best way to stay clean is to help someone else stay clean.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Langley, BC
Posts: 1,007
I agree Chi -
your posts have certainly helped me to keep going. I think you have a huge amount of wisdom and support to give. so give it. you shouldn't feel bad for trying to help someone out - and like you said, he seemed to agree with you.
and even if he hadn't - I know I was right where he was not long ago making excuses (I still can come up with them
) and it takes people calling me on it to get through to me. And thank God they do - I would rather have "constructive critism" all day long then have no one care and say nothing.
Good for you for helping him out. you rock!!!
your posts have certainly helped me to keep going. I think you have a huge amount of wisdom and support to give. so give it. you shouldn't feel bad for trying to help someone out - and like you said, he seemed to agree with you.
and even if he hadn't - I know I was right where he was not long ago making excuses (I still can come up with them
) and it takes people calling me on it to get through to me. And thank God they do - I would rather have "constructive critism" all day long then have no one care and say nothing.Good for you for helping him out. you rock!!!
Forum Leader
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, one big happy dysfunctional family!
Posts: 23,031
The way I see it Chiy, no harm, no foul, no big deal. What I've come to understand is that in being critical and judgemental, and sometimes taking someone's inventory, I'm simply recognizing the insanity of the disease and making a mental checklist of what I don't want to do in my recovery.
When I stop having imperfections, or shortcomings, I guess that's the day I'll trade in all my humility and become holier than anyone else. That's not why I'm in recovery, is it?
When I stop having imperfections, or shortcomings, I guess that's the day I'll trade in all my humility and become holier than anyone else. That's not why I'm in recovery, is it?
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 353
I don't think you should feel bad, I read on one of the posts where Daddio had said "This is a place of tough love" I think the kid needs some tough love. In return, it might make you feel better too...
Heavy
Heavy
No more merlot, more mamma
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Hills, Ct
Posts: 2,139
I agree with Pink too. Part of recovery is seeing yourself in others, and sharing how you used to be there too.
Nothing better to keep ya recovering than helping someone else on their journey. And, I'm sure that you said what you did as compassionately as possible..that's just the way you are!
Nothing better to keep ya recovering than helping someone else on their journey. And, I'm sure that you said what you did as compassionately as possible..that's just the way you are!
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Hey Chi ---
I'm with most everyone else here; I see nothing you should feel 'bad' about. I didn't hear criticism of any kind; what I heard was you sharing your ES&H....your own 'ups' and 'downs' so to speak.... (o: and that's a 'good' thing.....
One thing that you did say struck me though, and I'll see if I can give some of my own ES&H (and not criticism....lol)....
You said, "...I am the queen of excuses and fooling myself. So I did say I hear alot of excuses coming from him. And I made it clear I didnt mean it in a bad way. I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point..." --- it's that last part that bothers me some (...And I am sure I will do it again at some point...") --- I hope you're not saying that you're going to relapse again; am I reading this totally wrong....?....if not....:
I know both AA/NA and many other Twelve-Step Groups promote...: 'acting as if...' and/or 'act your way to right thinking...' BUT, I'm one of those crazy minority report folks....I don't believe we can act without a thought preceeding that action.....yup, that's it....: thoughts preceed actions.....soooo, if what you were saying was that you (perhaps) see yourself in the future having really good clean/sober days, beating the demon as it were, but you also (perhaps) see yourself coasting to another relapse.....well, when I was in negative thoughts, those self-fulfilling prophesies just kept me down. I found the way to avoid these negative phases was to change my thinking, usually using affirmations (not saying things to make them true, but saying thruths so as to remind myself of them....)
I hope this helps some; heck, I hope y'all understood even some of it....lol
NoelleR
I'm with most everyone else here; I see nothing you should feel 'bad' about. I didn't hear criticism of any kind; what I heard was you sharing your ES&H....your own 'ups' and 'downs' so to speak.... (o: and that's a 'good' thing.....
One thing that you did say struck me though, and I'll see if I can give some of my own ES&H (and not criticism....lol)....
You said, "...I am the queen of excuses and fooling myself. So I did say I hear alot of excuses coming from him. And I made it clear I didnt mean it in a bad way. I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point..." --- it's that last part that bothers me some (...And I am sure I will do it again at some point...") --- I hope you're not saying that you're going to relapse again; am I reading this totally wrong....?....if not....:
I know both AA/NA and many other Twelve-Step Groups promote...: 'acting as if...' and/or 'act your way to right thinking...' BUT, I'm one of those crazy minority report folks....I don't believe we can act without a thought preceeding that action.....yup, that's it....: thoughts preceed actions.....soooo, if what you were saying was that you (perhaps) see yourself in the future having really good clean/sober days, beating the demon as it were, but you also (perhaps) see yourself coasting to another relapse.....well, when I was in negative thoughts, those self-fulfilling prophesies just kept me down. I found the way to avoid these negative phases was to change my thinking, usually using affirmations (not saying things to make them true, but saying thruths so as to remind myself of them....)
I hope this helps some; heck, I hope y'all understood even some of it....lol
NoelleR
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 102
Having been in startups the last few years I notice a frightening similarity between alcoholics and poor leaders; they continually deceive themselves by making excuses as to 'why' this or that didn't happen like it was supposed too. Oftentimes the only way to help them reconcile this is to approach it head on. If you can't speak your mind in that group then it's tough to think anyone would ever truly benefit. Good for you for speaking up.
Looking For Myself...Sober
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Where the heart is
Posts: 10,209
Noelle. I pretty much said that because I didnt want to be like .Oh I got this **** down. Maybe I should have worded it "It's possible" instead of "I am sure."
I am not even a month clean yet.
But I have been going at it over a year now. And just this year I finally said.." ok..I am going to listen to what these people have to say."
Meaning. People who do have clean time. Or even people who dont.
It's always easier to look at somone else than yourself.
I just didnt want to sound arrogant or like I thought I was better than someone.
Because thats how I feel when I get an idea or have an observation outside myself.
I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all and not get it.
It isnt a good place until you decide to accept something other than your own beliefs.
But I know for dam sure without the many slaps to the head an kicks in the ass. Numerous..Hey Trish..Wake up! And listen!
I still wouldnt be getting it.
And I owe alot of that to alot of people here.
You know who you are. LOL.
I know sometimes..You just have to say it like it is. No way around it.
But I still feel bad. Because I dont want them to feel bad.
I am not even a month clean yet.
But I have been going at it over a year now. And just this year I finally said.." ok..I am going to listen to what these people have to say."
Meaning. People who do have clean time. Or even people who dont.
It's always easier to look at somone else than yourself.
I just didnt want to sound arrogant or like I thought I was better than someone.
Because thats how I feel when I get an idea or have an observation outside myself.
I know how it feels to be on the receiving end of it all and not get it.
It isnt a good place until you decide to accept something other than your own beliefs.
But I know for dam sure without the many slaps to the head an kicks in the ass. Numerous..Hey Trish..Wake up! And listen!
I still wouldnt be getting it.
And I owe alot of that to alot of people here.
You know who you are. LOL.
I know sometimes..You just have to say it like it is. No way around it.
But I still feel bad. Because I dont want them to feel bad.
*~10 YEARS BABY~*
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Hollywood
Posts: 9,369
In group settings I am always honest and straight forward about what I think, I like how Wendy and Fallingdown put it. That is how the best groups that I've been in have worked.
I don't always say what I think on the boards because you don't know where someone is mentally but f2f with a counselor there? That is what group is about. That is how I got better, people calling me out, because if they didn't?? How was I ever supposed to get better? People go to group to get out of their own heads to stop killing themselves and do something they are not able to do on their own.
JMHO....
I don't always say what I think on the boards because you don't know where someone is mentally but f2f with a counselor there? That is what group is about. That is how I got better, people calling me out, because if they didn't?? How was I ever supposed to get better? People go to group to get out of their own heads to stop killing themselves and do something they are not able to do on their own.
JMHO....
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Atlanta
Posts: 31,179
(((Trish)))
First of all, I think you did great!! You admitted that you had done the same "excuse thing", so that's why you recognized it, so there was nothing arrogant or "know-it-all" about it.
Secondly, you sound like me...I hate to make anyone feel bad. That is the codie in me. It has taken me all this time to realize that I have always wanted to "fix" things for others....make it all better....not make them feel bad. I'm STILL working on it, but I try to look at things like you did...you heard yourself in what he was saying, and you know what worked for you (people calling you on it).
Give yourself a pat on the back, sweetie...you're giving back what was given to you...that's what recovery is all about!
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
First of all, I think you did great!! You admitted that you had done the same "excuse thing", so that's why you recognized it, so there was nothing arrogant or "know-it-all" about it.
Secondly, you sound like me...I hate to make anyone feel bad. That is the codie in me. It has taken me all this time to realize that I have always wanted to "fix" things for others....make it all better....not make them feel bad. I'm STILL working on it, but I try to look at things like you did...you heard yourself in what he was saying, and you know what worked for you (people calling you on it).
Give yourself a pat on the back, sweetie...you're giving back what was given to you...that's what recovery is all about!
Hugs and prayers!
Amy
Adventures In SpaceTime
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by chiynita 
Ok..I have had a whole lot of this. So I am very familiar with the receiving end of it.
But me being so early in recovery. I feel bad giving it.
I feel like I am being judgmental. Or that I have no business giving any.
Why I am posting this is. In group today. There is a kid that for the past week has ..what sounds like to me. Been making excuses. Excuses why he still uses. Excuses why he wont do what he has to. Just a whole truck load of things to prolong the point of being there.
One minute he'll say he never wants to use again. He doesnt even feel the urge to use. And he feels so good being sober. But in the same breath he is saying I relapsed yesterday. Now he has said this everyday in the past week.
So the counselor asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say about his share.
So I am the queen of excuses and fooling myself. So I did say I hear alot of excuses coming from him. And I made it clear I didnt mean it in a bad way. I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point.
And others chimed in and said the same thing I did.
Ok So why do I feel so bad for saying it?
Even tho he seemed to agree and take it well.
Recovery is so confusing sometimes.
Any thoughts.
I can take the critism now too.
I need opinions.
But me being so early in recovery. I feel bad giving it.
I feel like I am being judgmental. Or that I have no business giving any.
Why I am posting this is. In group today. There is a kid that for the past week has ..what sounds like to me. Been making excuses. Excuses why he still uses. Excuses why he wont do what he has to. Just a whole truck load of things to prolong the point of being there.
One minute he'll say he never wants to use again. He doesnt even feel the urge to use. And he feels so good being sober. But in the same breath he is saying I relapsed yesterday. Now he has said this everyday in the past week.
So the counselor asked if anyone had anything they wanted to say about his share.
So I am the queen of excuses and fooling myself. So I did say I hear alot of excuses coming from him. And I made it clear I didnt mean it in a bad way. I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point.
And others chimed in and said the same thing I did.
Ok So why do I feel so bad for saying it?
Even tho he seemed to agree and take it well.
Recovery is so confusing sometimes.
Any thoughts.
I can take the critism now too.
I need opinions.
my opinion is you did right in that share group. and the others were right to support your share. i think the kid was talkin open and needed some support and he got it. way cool.
as for you feeling bad about the above scene, well, the declaration that you are the queen of excuses shows your own worthy struggle with your own authenticity. that is a great struggle to take on, as your efforts will guide you to a deeper and safer place within your own heart of hearts.
my own struggles with being authentic helped me to balance honesty, truth, lies, and forgiveness into a daily process of openness and repentence. feeling bad is not always bad for us, if you can hear me, [course u can] and bad does not always mean guilt. remorse is also a powerful force we deal with often enough, and nothing wrong with that now is there.
in my opinion you are just being in a good place dealing with your own remorse for your past experiences as you related to that share group. remorse is not a happy feeling of course, and can be confused with guilt.
i think your speaking from experience helped that entire share group to no end. and since you're part of that group, well, it helped you too. you rock, chiynita.
p.s. just my opinion, of course. [lol] and have another great day!
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Originally Posted by chiynita
I have been there. I have done it. And I am sure I will do it again at some point.
You know what works. You know what helps. You know where to find support and answers. Just for today... we remain free from what can kill us.
I am sure that as long as I stay in the day and work my recovery every day...I will not return to my old ways.
No excuses.
Don't get undies in a bunch
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: South Shore MA
Posts: 7,120
Trish
When ever we share with another...
If we can start our words with these thoughts....
This is what I found works. This is what I experienced. This is what has worked for me thus far...
What we share is never wrong.
One day of recovery or 25 years... what has worked for us may help another.
When ever we share with another...
If we can start our words with these thoughts....
This is what I found works. This is what I experienced. This is what has worked for me thus far...
What we share is never wrong.
One day of recovery or 25 years... what has worked for us may help another.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,126
Hey Chi ---
When you said....:
"...I pretty much said that because I didnt want to be like .Oh I got this **** down..." and "...I just didnt want to sound arrogant or like I thought I was better than someone..."
I knew exactly what you meant. When I was new in recovery [first weekish (7-10 days)], I really, REALLY got the first step, and I said to myself, "Well, that does it then.....no more booze or drugs....I will never drink or drug again." My mistake was that I said this aloud.....whoops...lol...I was called all kinds of names....: 'arrogant,' 'self-important,' 'conceited,' 'self-righteous,' and the ever-favorite 'a relapse-waiting-to-happen.' The thing was, I really, REALLY wasn't being arrogant or self-righteous; I was just making a simple statement; one I in all honesty I truly believed, and that I saw as truth (I couldn't see myself limited to 'just for today' or 'one day at a time'). I was really jumped on and told to NEVER say never.....cause you just DON'T know.....of course these folks were all the time saying, "No matter what, I won't pick up." which I saw as the same thing.....I just figured I wasn't PC enough.....lol
I don't see anything wrong, or arrogant, or self-righteous, or whatever, if a person sees themselves as stopped, and stopped for good.....as long as the statement is coming from honesty and humility and not the ole addict-promise...which we all know is worth...................nada
Sorry....didn't mean to take this thread off the track.....but then, it sorta still is on point.....sort of..... (o: I just figure if a person is honest, really 'n truly honest, he/she can't go wrong.....
NoelleR
P.S. ....just a wee bit of an asside.....since that time of my 'arrogant, self-important, conceited, self-righteous, relapse-waiting-to-happen' statement, I have not found it necessary to use any mind-altering chemicals (cept for scripts for chronic pain, and very few of those).....and here I sit some 8,045 days later.....hmmmm somethin' mus be werkin.....lol
When you said....:
"...I pretty much said that because I didnt want to be like .Oh I got this **** down..." and "...I just didnt want to sound arrogant or like I thought I was better than someone..."
I knew exactly what you meant. When I was new in recovery [first weekish (7-10 days)], I really, REALLY got the first step, and I said to myself, "Well, that does it then.....no more booze or drugs....I will never drink or drug again." My mistake was that I said this aloud.....whoops...lol...I was called all kinds of names....: 'arrogant,' 'self-important,' 'conceited,' 'self-righteous,' and the ever-favorite 'a relapse-waiting-to-happen.' The thing was, I really, REALLY wasn't being arrogant or self-righteous; I was just making a simple statement; one I in all honesty I truly believed, and that I saw as truth (I couldn't see myself limited to 'just for today' or 'one day at a time'). I was really jumped on and told to NEVER say never.....cause you just DON'T know.....of course these folks were all the time saying, "No matter what, I won't pick up." which I saw as the same thing.....I just figured I wasn't PC enough.....lol
I don't see anything wrong, or arrogant, or self-righteous, or whatever, if a person sees themselves as stopped, and stopped for good.....as long as the statement is coming from honesty and humility and not the ole addict-promise...which we all know is worth...................nada
Sorry....didn't mean to take this thread off the track.....but then, it sorta still is on point.....sort of..... (o: I just figure if a person is honest, really 'n truly honest, he/she can't go wrong.....
NoelleR
P.S. ....just a wee bit of an asside.....since that time of my 'arrogant, self-important, conceited, self-righteous, relapse-waiting-to-happen' statement, I have not found it necessary to use any mind-altering chemicals (cept for scripts for chronic pain, and very few of those).....and here I sit some 8,045 days later.....hmmmm somethin' mus be werkin.....lol
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