Disease?
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Palm Beach County, FL
Posts: 3
Disease?
A friend of mine has just been court ordered to attend 12-step meetings because of a legal matter. He has gone, but is looking at it as a means of getting through, not as a means to quit.
He has never been in any trouble as a result of the drink or drug use, except for this single legal snafu, and it seems they are turning a problem episode into a lifelong condition at the meetings with the language they force him to accept. There is the ever-present tautology of:
Admit you have the problem - then you have a disease.
Don't admit the problem - you are in denial - then you have the disease.
Once you are in the door, there is no hope, and you are going to leave diseased no matter what? What can someone do that has not had any problems with their drinking or drugging, but is being told they are a defective person that can never drink normally?
Studies have also shown that, when you are caught for drinking or drugs, and forced into a 12-step program, you actually drink more! The most famous one showed that during the court-ordered time in rehab, a control group, that had no treatment, was compared to a 12-step group, and the 12-steppers had 400% more binge-drinking episodes. This is the consequence of affirming that a person is powerless over something, they say it to themselves enough, and then they act powerless over it.
Nine out of 10 people who drink or do drugs do not have any problems from it. Nine out of 10 who get addicted overcome their addiction. Government research shows that the largest group of those who overcome addiction to alcohol do it by moderating their intake, and this is what they stress in countries around the world where rehab is more successful than it is here.
So what is a guy to do. Should he go with the program, say something to his parole office to get into another one, or what? He is really being torn apart by being lablelled as something he can't accept that he is.
Thanks,
Rick
He has never been in any trouble as a result of the drink or drug use, except for this single legal snafu, and it seems they are turning a problem episode into a lifelong condition at the meetings with the language they force him to accept. There is the ever-present tautology of:
Admit you have the problem - then you have a disease.
Don't admit the problem - you are in denial - then you have the disease.
Once you are in the door, there is no hope, and you are going to leave diseased no matter what? What can someone do that has not had any problems with their drinking or drugging, but is being told they are a defective person that can never drink normally?
Studies have also shown that, when you are caught for drinking or drugs, and forced into a 12-step program, you actually drink more! The most famous one showed that during the court-ordered time in rehab, a control group, that had no treatment, was compared to a 12-step group, and the 12-steppers had 400% more binge-drinking episodes. This is the consequence of affirming that a person is powerless over something, they say it to themselves enough, and then they act powerless over it.
Nine out of 10 people who drink or do drugs do not have any problems from it. Nine out of 10 who get addicted overcome their addiction. Government research shows that the largest group of those who overcome addiction to alcohol do it by moderating their intake, and this is what they stress in countries around the world where rehab is more successful than it is here.
So what is a guy to do. Should he go with the program, say something to his parole office to get into another one, or what? He is really being torn apart by being lablelled as something he can't accept that he is.
Thanks,
Rick
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,510
What I know is this - I tried moderating my drinking for years.
It nearly killed me.
It was a relief to stop drinking and begin to live again.
Each person needs to decide what is right for him.
It nearly killed me.
It was a relief to stop drinking and begin to live again.
Each person needs to decide what is right for him.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Palm Beach County, FL
Posts: 3
Quendrida -
True, there are worse things, but for months "Brad" will have to repeat the mantra in the rooms, that he is an "addict/alcoholic."
Otherwise - you are absolutely right! Only a person can define who they are to themselves - this in particular. There is no blood test or genetic screen to determine addiction - and never will be - because it is related to the pleasure mechanism that our bodies use to enjoy food, sex, and everything else needed for survival. It is totally dependent on how you see yourself, and what you believe you can (or can't) do about it. The problem is, a person usually has a parole officer or a shrink telling you what the story is once they are in the system. (And they use the tautology, so you get stuck being "addicted" no matter what.)
Many people quit their addictions, and most of those who do it alone believe in themselves and their abilities. It was how I quit smoking, (which was the hardest d*mn thing I have EVER quit!) I wonder how many first-timers in the rooms, who are uncomfortable and suspicious of 12-stepping, would be able to quit if they believed strongly in themselves. Regardless of how far (or not-too-far) gone they are, like Brad, they get told they are "powerless" over their addiction, and made to internalize it. For many, this may not have been the case before, but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy over time in meetings, and that is really sad.
I've known Brad for years, since middle school, and he has never had a negative issue (even when he was going full-blast in college) except for this one. To be told he can never use a drug or drink normally again because it will kill him, I strongly believe, sends the wrong message and is counter-productive with a person like him. The problem is, rocking the boat will only get him deeper in trouble with the law.
I'm telling him to work it until it is done - THEN raise your scruples when nobody can send you to jail. ;-)
True, there are worse things, but for months "Brad" will have to repeat the mantra in the rooms, that he is an "addict/alcoholic."
Otherwise - you are absolutely right! Only a person can define who they are to themselves - this in particular. There is no blood test or genetic screen to determine addiction - and never will be - because it is related to the pleasure mechanism that our bodies use to enjoy food, sex, and everything else needed for survival. It is totally dependent on how you see yourself, and what you believe you can (or can't) do about it. The problem is, a person usually has a parole officer or a shrink telling you what the story is once they are in the system. (And they use the tautology, so you get stuck being "addicted" no matter what.)
Many people quit their addictions, and most of those who do it alone believe in themselves and their abilities. It was how I quit smoking, (which was the hardest d*mn thing I have EVER quit!) I wonder how many first-timers in the rooms, who are uncomfortable and suspicious of 12-stepping, would be able to quit if they believed strongly in themselves. Regardless of how far (or not-too-far) gone they are, like Brad, they get told they are "powerless" over their addiction, and made to internalize it. For many, this may not have been the case before, but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy over time in meetings, and that is really sad.
I've known Brad for years, since middle school, and he has never had a negative issue (even when he was going full-blast in college) except for this one. To be told he can never use a drug or drink normally again because it will kill him, I strongly believe, sends the wrong message and is counter-productive with a person like him. The problem is, rocking the boat will only get him deeper in trouble with the law.
I'm telling him to work it until it is done - THEN raise your scruples when nobody can send you to jail. ;-)
Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 486
Sounds like the only issue here is a legal issue. Does Brad think jail is better than self help groups. If he does, then he needs to be prepared to face the consequences of his choice, in most states it is up to a year in jail.
If not, then attend court approved self help meetings (his parole officer should have a list of what he / she will accept) and make the best of his time there. I have yet to see an AA group force someone to speak, admit they are alcoholic or work the steps. If his parole officer is forcing him to do this, which after 8 years working in DUI defense I have never seen, then he is back to the legal decision of Jail or AA.
I hope that helps and remember, the Judge will see things even more cut and dry than I described.
If not, then attend court approved self help meetings (his parole officer should have a list of what he / she will accept) and make the best of his time there. I have yet to see an AA group force someone to speak, admit they are alcoholic or work the steps. If his parole officer is forcing him to do this, which after 8 years working in DUI defense I have never seen, then he is back to the legal decision of Jail or AA.
I hope that helps and remember, the Judge will see things even more cut and dry than I described.
mle-sober
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
StopYerDrinking,
I'm going to be blunt here. Doesn't sound to me like you have any real substantial experience with AA. (Your words: "Studies have shown..." "Government research shows...")
Also doesn't sound to me like you have any true understanding about what the steps are, and I'm pretty sure you never read the Big Book. (Your words: "...they get told they are "powerless" over their addiction, and made to internalize it.")
Nor does it sound to me like you have a very good grasp on what alcoholism is. (Your words: "It is totally dependent on how you see yourself, and what you believe you can (or can't) do about it.")
If your poor friend "Brad" doesn't have a problem with alcohol and only has a "little legal problem" then he should have no real problem attending AA meetings, merely introducing himself like this, "Hi, I'm Brad, I'm just visiting.) and sitting quietly for an hour. At the end of the hour he can get his court-ordered form signed and leave. There is no brain-washing or manipulation in AA.
BTW - if you ever find yourself unable to quit drinking or using, no matter how hard you try and how strong your self-will is, come visit us at AA - you are always welcome. And recognizing that your life is unmanagable and that you cannot stop drinking or using without help, that is just the beginning. It gets better by then. I hear there are other programs that work too but, for me, AA has saved my life.
Good luck to you and "Brad" and his little legal problem. Those suck.
I'm going to be blunt here. Doesn't sound to me like you have any real substantial experience with AA. (Your words: "Studies have shown..." "Government research shows...")
Also doesn't sound to me like you have any true understanding about what the steps are, and I'm pretty sure you never read the Big Book. (Your words: "...they get told they are "powerless" over their addiction, and made to internalize it.")
Nor does it sound to me like you have a very good grasp on what alcoholism is. (Your words: "It is totally dependent on how you see yourself, and what you believe you can (or can't) do about it.")
If your poor friend "Brad" doesn't have a problem with alcohol and only has a "little legal problem" then he should have no real problem attending AA meetings, merely introducing himself like this, "Hi, I'm Brad, I'm just visiting.) and sitting quietly for an hour. At the end of the hour he can get his court-ordered form signed and leave. There is no brain-washing or manipulation in AA.
BTW - if you ever find yourself unable to quit drinking or using, no matter how hard you try and how strong your self-will is, come visit us at AA - you are always welcome. And recognizing that your life is unmanagable and that you cannot stop drinking or using without help, that is just the beginning. It gets better by then. I hear there are other programs that work too but, for me, AA has saved my life.
Good luck to you and "Brad" and his little legal problem. Those suck.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,697
Originally Posted by StopYerDrinkin 
Quendrida -
True, there are worse things, but for months "Brad" will have to repeat the mantra in the rooms, that he is an "addict/alcoholic."
Otherwise - you are absolutely right! Only a person can define who they are to themselves - this in particular. There is no blood test or genetic screen to determine addiction - and never will be - because it is related to the pleasure mechanism that our bodies use to enjoy food, sex, and everything else needed for survival. It is totally dependent on how you see yourself, and what you believe you can (or can't) do about it. The problem is, a person usually has a parole officer or a shrink telling you what the story is once they are in the system. (And they use the tautology, so you get stuck being "addicted" no matter what.)
Many people quit their addictions, and most of those who do it alone believe in themselves and their abilities. It was how I quit smoking, (which was the hardest d*mn thing I have EVER quit!) I wonder how many first-timers in the rooms, who are uncomfortable and suspicious of 12-stepping, would be able to quit if they believed strongly in themselves. Regardless of how far (or not-too-far) gone they are, like Brad, they get told they are "powerless" over their addiction, and made to internalize it. For many, this may not have been the case before, but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy over time in meetings, and that is really sad.
I've known Brad for years, since middle school, and he has never had a negative issue (even when he was going full-blast in college) except for this one. To be told he can never use a drug or drink normally again because it will kill him, I strongly believe, sends the wrong message and is counter-productive with a person like him. The problem is, rocking the boat will only get him deeper in trouble with the law.
I'm telling him to work it until it is done - THEN raise your scruples when nobody can send you to jail. ;-)
True, there are worse things, but for months "Brad" will have to repeat the mantra in the rooms, that he is an "addict/alcoholic."
Otherwise - you are absolutely right! Only a person can define who they are to themselves - this in particular. There is no blood test or genetic screen to determine addiction - and never will be - because it is related to the pleasure mechanism that our bodies use to enjoy food, sex, and everything else needed for survival. It is totally dependent on how you see yourself, and what you believe you can (or can't) do about it. The problem is, a person usually has a parole officer or a shrink telling you what the story is once they are in the system. (And they use the tautology, so you get stuck being "addicted" no matter what.)
Many people quit their addictions, and most of those who do it alone believe in themselves and their abilities. It was how I quit smoking, (which was the hardest d*mn thing I have EVER quit!) I wonder how many first-timers in the rooms, who are uncomfortable and suspicious of 12-stepping, would be able to quit if they believed strongly in themselves. Regardless of how far (or not-too-far) gone they are, like Brad, they get told they are "powerless" over their addiction, and made to internalize it. For many, this may not have been the case before, but it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy over time in meetings, and that is really sad.
I've known Brad for years, since middle school, and he has never had a negative issue (even when he was going full-blast in college) except for this one. To be told he can never use a drug or drink normally again because it will kill him, I strongly believe, sends the wrong message and is counter-productive with a person like him. The problem is, rocking the boat will only get him deeper in trouble with the law.
I'm telling him to work it until it is done - THEN raise your scruples when nobody can send you to jail. ;-)
Heck - he can go to non-english speaking AA meetings - than it really won't be a problem.
You generalization of AA is wrong. Your motives are questionable - what is your motive in posting here? Are you losing a drinking buddy with "Brad" going to AA?
For the record - I am a member of AA, and I do not agree with people being forced to go, write your congressman - that might be more effective.
Today's Muse
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West end
Posts: 1,081
There are consequences to our actions. If we break the law...
If your friend truly does not have a problem, he won't find his way back into the system, true? If he does, maybe something will rub off. Denial is a great inhibitor. It inhibits our ability to see clearly. I've seen it a million times. In fact, I myself denied I had a problem until the truth was plain to see. Once he has served his restitution, no harm, no foul. He can walk away from AA and be free from the disease. Time will tell.
If your friend truly does not have a problem, he won't find his way back into the system, true? If he does, maybe something will rub off. Denial is a great inhibitor. It inhibits our ability to see clearly. I've seen it a million times. In fact, I myself denied I had a problem until the truth was plain to see. Once he has served his restitution, no harm, no foul. He can walk away from AA and be free from the disease. Time will tell.
not a greeter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: padmasana
Posts: 13,927
Originally Posted by StopYerDrinkin
The problem is, rocking the boat will only get him deeper in trouble with the law.
Forward we go...side by side-Rest In Peace
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Serene In Dixie
Posts: 36,740
Hmm...
All he has to do is get a card signed.
for x ammount of time.
Or he goes to jail.
Strickly up to him.
Either he quits drinking / drugging
or not. If he is not ready
it makes no difference what program
he sits in.
Hope this situation works out to
benefit the two of you..
All he has to do is get a card signed.
for x ammount of time.
Or he goes to jail.
Strickly up to him.
Either he quits drinking / drugging
or not. If he is not ready
it makes no difference what program
he sits in.
Hope this situation works out to
benefit the two of you..
Last edited by CarolD; 04-12-2008 at 02:08 PM.
member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,433
Hi Stop,
Labels are just terms we use to name something. The label itself is not as important as the behaviour that it describes. So it's fine if your friend rejects a label, but IMHO he should really look into the way he's been acting. He might find he does indeed have a problem. For the record, I reject the whole "alcoholism is a disease" concept myself, but that's another story - I do admit to having a problem, but I am most certainly not "diseased" or anything like that. Words are words are words. A reality check might be more benefitial than trying to seek out a PC term.
Take care of yourself Your friend is lucky to have you
Matt
Labels are just terms we use to name something. The label itself is not as important as the behaviour that it describes. So it's fine if your friend rejects a label, but IMHO he should really look into the way he's been acting. He might find he does indeed have a problem. For the record, I reject the whole "alcoholism is a disease" concept myself, but that's another story - I do admit to having a problem, but I am most certainly not "diseased" or anything like that. Words are words are words. A reality check might be more benefitial than trying to seek out a PC term.
Take care of yourself
Your friend is lucky to have youMatt
Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Baghdad
Posts: 2,822
Originally Posted by StopYerDrinkin
A friend of mine has just been court ordered to attend 12-step meetings because of a legal matter. He has gone, but is looking at it as a means of getting through, not as a means to quit.
He has never been in any trouble as a result of the drink or drug use, except for this single legal snafu, and it seems they are turning a problem episode into a lifelong condition at the meetings with the language they force him to accept. There is the ever-present tautology of:
Admit you have the problem - then you have a disease.
Don't admit the problem - you are in denial - then you have the disease.
Once you are in the door, there is no hope, and you are going to leave diseased no matter what? What can someone do that has not had any problems with their drinking or drugging, but is being told they are a defective person that can never drink normally?
Studies have also shown that, when you are caught for drinking or drugs, and forced into a 12-step program, you actually drink more! The most famous one showed that during the court-ordered time in rehab, a control group, that had no treatment, was compared to a 12-step group, and the 12-steppers had 400% more binge-drinking episodes. This is the consequence of affirming that a person is powerless over something, they say it to themselves enough, and then they act powerless over it.
Nine out of 10 people who drink or do drugs do not have any problems from it. Nine out of 10 who get addicted overcome their addiction. Government research shows that the largest group of those who overcome addiction to alcohol do it by moderating their intake, and this is what they stress in countries around the world where rehab is more successful than it is here.
So what is a guy to do. Should he go with the program, say something to his parole office to get into another one, or what? He is really being torn apart by being lablelled as something he can't accept that he is.
Thanks,
Rick
He has never been in any trouble as a result of the drink or drug use, except for this single legal snafu, and it seems they are turning a problem episode into a lifelong condition at the meetings with the language they force him to accept. There is the ever-present tautology of:
Admit you have the problem - then you have a disease.
Don't admit the problem - you are in denial - then you have the disease.
Once you are in the door, there is no hope, and you are going to leave diseased no matter what? What can someone do that has not had any problems with their drinking or drugging, but is being told they are a defective person that can never drink normally?
Studies have also shown that, when you are caught for drinking or drugs, and forced into a 12-step program, you actually drink more! The most famous one showed that during the court-ordered time in rehab, a control group, that had no treatment, was compared to a 12-step group, and the 12-steppers had 400% more binge-drinking episodes. This is the consequence of affirming that a person is powerless over something, they say it to themselves enough, and then they act powerless over it.
Nine out of 10 people who drink or do drugs do not have any problems from it. Nine out of 10 who get addicted overcome their addiction. Government research shows that the largest group of those who overcome addiction to alcohol do it by moderating their intake, and this is what they stress in countries around the world where rehab is more successful than it is here.
So what is a guy to do. Should he go with the program, say something to his parole office to get into another one, or what? He is really being torn apart by being lablelled as something he can't accept that he is.
Thanks,
Rick
When you make a statement like 'studies have shown that', having some sort of attribution makes your statements credible, in their absence, you sound like you're selling laundry detergent. FYI, there are drugs that have 100% addiction rates. I sympathize with your 'friends' angst, but if he doesn't have any addiction issues he has nothing to worry about, you can't make someone an addict because you told them they are, and most of these court ordered programs simply require attendance for compliance.
Look on the bright side, your 'friend' could be sitting in jail instead of having these pleasant conversations!
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Kansas
Posts: 10,182
Originally Posted by StopYerDrinkin
Studies have also shown that, when you are caught for drinking or drugs, and forced into a 12-step program, you actually drink more! The most famous one showed that during the court-ordered time in rehab, a control group, that had no treatment, was compared to a 12-step group, and the 12-steppers had 400% more binge-drinking episodes. This is the consequence of affirming that a person is powerless over something, they say it to themselves enough, and then they act powerless over it.
Nine out of 10 people who drink or do drugs do not have any problems from it. Nine out of 10 who get addicted overcome their addiction. Government research shows that the largest group of those who overcome addiction to alcohol do it by moderating their intake, and this is what they stress in countries around the world where rehab is more successful than it is here.
Nine out of 10 people who drink or do drugs do not have any problems from it. Nine out of 10 who get addicted overcome their addiction. Government research shows that the largest group of those who overcome addiction to alcohol do it by moderating their intake, and this is what they stress in countries around the world where rehab is more successful than it is here.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
The purpose of Court Ordered Treatment is not to correct drinking or drugging habits of offenders. It's simply to create programs that create jobs. The Systems sole purpose is to justify its own existance.
The easiest way out is to just go along with it. In fact, it's the only way out.
In my younger years I asked my Counselor why I was back 4 times if the program is so great.
He said that when they finally send my dumb ass back to prison they can say that they tried.
The Government is a machine. It needs to eat. The more it eats, the bigger it gets. The bigger it gets, the more it needs to eat.
Your friend is just a morsel. Hopefully he will never be back on the plate.
The easiest way out is to just go along with it. In fact, it's the only way out.
In my younger years I asked my Counselor why I was back 4 times if the program is so great.
He said that when they finally send my dumb ass back to prison they can say that they tried.
The Government is a machine. It needs to eat. The more it eats, the bigger it gets. The bigger it gets, the more it needs to eat.
Your friend is just a morsel. Hopefully he will never be back on the plate.
Helping Others, Helps Me
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 481
I think the disease as I understand is the fact that your reward system in your brain is messed up. You become conditioned to that buzz or high, and constantly seek it out, even though it causes great problems for you, your brain likes to reward it's self. That's why people in sobriety almost retrain themselves....
Purely non-scientific explanation...
Purely non-scientific explanation...
Helping Others, Helps Me
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: North Dakota
Posts: 481
Some people are simply incapable of grasping these simple guidelines to recovery, there are such unfortunates.
I use AA as part of my overall toolbox of recovery. It simply reminds me that I am not alone with my struggles and it is a fellowship of other people who have a desire to quit drinking. Humans in general over think things...
I use AA as part of my overall toolbox of recovery. It simply reminds me that I am not alone with my struggles and it is a fellowship of other people who have a desire to quit drinking. Humans in general over think things...
mle-sober
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Golden, CO
Posts: 1,243
PinkCuda -
Well, that's one negative way of thinking about it. I would prefer to imagine that since the prison system costs so much money and primarily sees it's role as punishment, some wise people have found a way to institutionalize a less-expenseive legal response to address non-violent offenders and in the meantime, also offer them a lifeline toward sobriety, should they choose to grab on.
No one is forced to grab on, of course, and many are offended. After all, they tell us and themselves, they do not have substance abuse problems! That kind of stuff is for other people! Alcoholics and addicts! No one is going to send them to a 12-step meeting and make an acloholic or an addict out of them, they swear.
For some reason they would rather see themselves as candidates for prison than as candidates for healing. And for some reason, 12-step meetings are seen as serious punishment while being confined to a concrete building with bars, terrible food, strip searches and excessively limited visiting hours (to say nothing of many other unpleasant aspects of jail and prison.) - this is seen as appropriate punishment for a "little legal issue" that may or may not involve alcohol or drugs.
This is all very strange to me.
Well, that's one negative way of thinking about it. I would prefer to imagine that since the prison system costs so much money and primarily sees it's role as punishment, some wise people have found a way to institutionalize a less-expenseive legal response to address non-violent offenders and in the meantime, also offer them a lifeline toward sobriety, should they choose to grab on.
No one is forced to grab on, of course, and many are offended. After all, they tell us and themselves, they do not have substance abuse problems! That kind of stuff is for other people! Alcoholics and addicts! No one is going to send them to a 12-step meeting and make an acloholic or an addict out of them, they swear.
For some reason they would rather see themselves as candidates for prison than as candidates for healing. And for some reason, 12-step meetings are seen as serious punishment while being confined to a concrete building with bars, terrible food, strip searches and excessively limited visiting hours (to say nothing of many other unpleasant aspects of jail and prison.) - this is seen as appropriate punishment for a "little legal issue" that may or may not involve alcohol or drugs.
This is all very strange to me.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Colorado Prairie
Posts: 1,417
It might be viewed as negative by some. But it's the truth. Alcoholics quit when it's time to quit. Problem drinkers do something when it's time to do something about their problem. Not a moment sooner.
Judges, Lawyers, DAs, Attorneys, Counselors and the likes all know this. Yet they continue to order treatment of one sort or another.
Why? Is it because they are blissfully unaware that ordering people to treatment is a waste of time? Do they honestly think they can stop an alcoholic from drinking?
No, they just need to "Rubber Stamp" people through their Machine.
It's possible that a DUI might be all it takes to stop a serious drinker. In most cases, I doubt it.
Judges, Lawyers, DAs, Attorneys, Counselors and the likes all know this. Yet they continue to order treatment of one sort or another.
Why? Is it because they are blissfully unaware that ordering people to treatment is a waste of time? Do they honestly think they can stop an alcoholic from drinking?
No, they just need to "Rubber Stamp" people through their Machine.
It's possible that a DUI might be all it takes to stop a serious drinker. In most cases, I doubt it.
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