SpaceDementia

GT, yes everything you scrolled there about AA/NA is something that I can relate to. I realize that what I'm feeling is similar to what every addict feels once they've had that epiphany and understand the fact that they're an addict. Now before I go any further I want you to know that I'm not being arrogant or rude but just trying to explain my point of view.
I except the fact that AA/NA is an effective model for changing addicts into recovered addicts. Now I know this sounds paranoid, but I can't get this out of my head. Is it far to assume that when the majority of the folks that stroll on into AA/NA and hear the word God they think of organized religion? Now let me ask this, what is the best condition for you to find a human being in, to render them susceptible to brain washing? Emotionally all raw, psychologically twisted, spiritually empty, alone.........
While you and 5,000 other people on this site or maybe even 95% of recovered addicts have found NA/AA to be ultimately effective, it doesn't mean that it's effective for everyone.
What about addicted atheists??? Are they just sh!t out of luck? Will they always have that hole in their heart?
Surely their can me more than one solution to a problem such as this. Yes, I have a "hole" since I haven't figured my HP out. Yes, I feel alone and frightened and sad but according to every psychiatrist I have ever seen, that's called depression.
I'm sorry. I realize you guys are trying to help me and point me in the right direction, and you have no idea how much better I feel now then at the start of today. Maybe I just have trust issues or maybe I'm eccentric or maybe i'm just too stupid to understand this.

serenityqueen

SD, You know what I think? I think you are finally realizing that you are not alone in these confusing, twisted, warped feelings that you are experiencing now that you aren't numbing them. I'm very familiar with Methadone, have been in an MMT myself for over 2 1/2 years. I know one doesn't get high like you stated. First few days, I had what I thought was a slight feeling of euphoria. I look back now, I think I was just happy to be feeling,'normal' I was no longer dope sick, but at the same time I didn't have that feeling of, "This is a great feeling, now if I just have a LITTLE MORE, I know I'd feel even better." I could function, I could get through the day without obsessive thoughts of fear of running out of pills, having to have my purse with me all the time so my cache' of pills wasn't discovered by anyone else, beginning withdrawls and wondering where I can duck into and swallow 20 more of these to keep me 'well' for the next 2 - 3 hours. . . . But I was by no means healed, I wasn't cured. The mental obsession was still there. The Methadone only helped with the physical obsession.

OK, now what? As I stated earlier, I voluntarily went into detox the first time back in 1980, four months after I graduated from high school. I did all the drugs of the era too. I had my favorites so to speak, but I know I wasn't addicted to any of these. Now, I always smoked pot, I had two cigarette cases, one with cigarettes, one with joints. Rolled and ready to go. But whatever drug was available to take on top of this was fine with me. As long as I was in an altered state I was happy. One day, I was doing acid, next day soapers, next day green abotts, you name, I didn't care what kind of high I was on, just as long as I was far, far away from the person I was running from when I first picked up at 11 years old. But when I discovered opiates, it set off something in the brain that sent me on a destructive spiral into the depths of hell. This is where my drug use was no longer an escape from normalacy, it became feeling normal. If I didn't fill my body with opiates, I was physically sick as well as being mentally, emotionally and spiritualy critically ill. This is where a Program came in. I had made so many attempts at Recovery that it isn't funny at all. Detox centers got so sick of seeing me. They were refusing to admit me anymore. I did want help, I wanted to stop this slow, painful suicide that I was committing, but I truly didn't know how. I'd go to meetings, but I felt that alot of those things that were suggested to me just wouldn't work. People just didn't seem to understand that I don't really believe there is a God. Or if there is, He got as tired of me as the detox centers, the courts, my Family, so called friends - He didn't know I was alive anymore. I wasn't one of those people who felt God was punishing them for something. I was raised Catholic and had my experiences in Church that scared me to death. How was I supposed to all of a sudden give every area of my life to someone who I thought had forgotten all about me, much less who I was taught to be afraid of? Picture the second grade little girl in her Catholic school uniform being told that if I break one of the Ten Commandments I'm going to hell! I'm thinking 'Oh my gosh, I wasn't honoring my Mother and Father when I yelled at my Mom last night because she wouldn't let me stay up to watch All in The Family on tv on a school night.' And I'm supposed to feel loved by someone who I was taught could condem me to hell is the wave of His hand? These were the things that went through my mind when it came to the Spirituality of the Program.

But then I realized, I was no different than other of the other people in the Rooms. What else did I have to loose? The only thing I had was my life. I completely surrendered. I actually looked at a room full of about 50 other Alcoholics/Addicts and said, "I don't know what I'm doing, help me here." And I cried the hardest cry I had in years. I had to quit trying to analyze everything. The One Day at a Time concept was hard. I wanted fixed now! I wanted to feel better right away. Just like when I swallowed all of those pills. I wanted instant gratification and Recovery doesn't work that way. It's a process, not an event. And I had to learn patience. Have you ever seen a patient addict or alcoholic? That's something that took me a very long time.

All my rambling does have a point here, you're just the same as all of us. We all questioned so many things in our minds when we were naked on the door steps begging for help. But, more will be revealed. Be patient. You said you were feeling a little better than you were earlier, right?

Thanks for helping me once again realize that I am no different from anyone else. We all have the same disease. And we all want the same thing. Just to be Happy. Today, I'm happy.

Now, the Queen has spoken!

SpaceDementia

Bach 1712 Overture in background

SQ,
Being that my emotional state is about as stable as the San Andreas fault right now, your post made my eyes a little leaky. Again, thank you for posting something substantial. I'm so drained I don't even know what I was going say......
In a way I feel like I'm waking from a dream that lasted 12 years. I look down at my feet and wander how I got all the way up here. Am I really 6'1? I could have sworn the last time I checked I was 5'7. I look at places on my body where there are scars that shouldn't be. I have this fuzzy recollection: all of these horrid memories of things that I've done to myself. I have horrid memories of things that I have done to other living beings. I think about the way that I have behaved and I think about what I could have been. I have this big box that I took out two weekends ago. I had it taped up, I don't think I had looked in it in I don't know how long. I opened and started going through the stuff. Trophies, mvp awards, my olympic development program shirts, my letter from a college scout..... I keep playing this talk that I had with my coach when I quit the team. He asked me if I really understood what I was doing, what I was giving up... I said, "Yes, I don't care, I'm tired of all this training." I just wanted some free time to smoke weed. I gave up my dream of becoming a professional soccer player. Most people's dreams don't come true but mine was actually materializing. The soccer club that I played for, I just went to the their website and looked for information about me or my team. They've won several national championships.... Teams are referred to by the last two digits of the year the players were born in. My team was "Team Name '81". The website doesn't even mention our national championship. The most recent team is, "Team Name '89".
It makes me realize that all these "could haves" and "should haves" going through my head are pointless. What ever I could have been, I'm not. There's nothing that I can do, I know this. How do I get this sh!t out of my head. I know that I need to just move on but.......

adore79

SD, you know I like you alot and I only have your best interests in mind. I used to be like you- didn't believe in God, I could do it by myself, etc... There was noone there for me. I've found lately, from inspiration from this board and a certain person on it, that it is actually not that bad to give it up to a HP. I've been praying and asking HP for help, and it has been nice. I am planning to go to an AA meeting soon. You might want to give it a chance? If not, that's cool. <3

GreenTea

"...I kept thinking that they were trying to brainwash me... Then I realized that as filthy as my brain was, it could use a little washing..."

Dude, you're preaching to the choir when it comes to trust issues... I guarantee you that your family hasn't done anything worse to you than my family has done to me...

There are some members both here at SR and in my home group who have listened patiently for *months* on end while I emptied myself, rambling on, offering up analysis, analogy, metaphor, causality chains, supporting documentation, logic, and pain pain pain... And then when I was done, I gave them a few more months of the same...

They listened to it all... I mean *ALL* of it... It wasn't anything that they hadn't heard before... I surprised no one... Some of the details might have been different, but it was those same old *human* patterns all over again... it was just in someone else's skull...

Some parts they agreed with. Some parts they didn't... Some parts angered them. Some parts saddened them... I made some people cry... I made some people laugh at how silly it all was.

Three realizations came to mind (among many others) when it was all said and done...

1) It was *my* pain... *I* was the one hanging onto it... When you got right down to it, I was in pain because of the way *I* was thinking about it all... I may have been dealt that hand, but *I* was the one who wasn't playing the hand the way I needed to... *I* am the one responsible for what I *do* about it all, and that includes the ways I was setting myself up for more of the same without even realizing it... It doesn't matter if that's the way I was "taught" -- *I* was still the one doing it and allowing it.

2) There was nothing special or unique about my pain or how I had come to be carrying it around... There was also nothing special or unique about how I was "acting out", replaying the script over and over again, accumulating more pain to add to the existing pile I already had... There was also nothing new about how I was hanging onto it, defending it, jealously guarding it, being oh-so-creative in trying to get others to agree that *my* pain was somehow unique and therefore more "special" and so much deeper and worse than others people's pain... The same old "human patterns"... I didn't want to give it up because it was a part of me and I thought I'd somehow be lessened if I did, or if I admitted that it was simply the same old sorrow with different packaging.

3) I also realized that I had *finally* found some people who were willing to listen, and to help me... They understood. They really, truly knew exactly where I was coming from because they themselves had been there too... I WAS NOT ALONE... There's nothing like a room full of truly recovering alcoholics and addicts when it comes to pain and soul sickness and understanding -- it binds us together... And lo and behold, wonder of wonders, not only would they commiserate, but they also knew of a way to get rid of all that pain, to let it go, and to keep it from coming back... Even more amazing, they had been working on it and refining it for something like seventy years! It was PROVEN to work... And it wouldn't cost me an arm and a leg -- they would *give* it to me for free. All I had to do was *try*... And if I didn't like it, they'd happily refund my misery.

The Steps ARE the easier, softer way...

No one tried to oppress me... No one tried to snare me... No one tried to get me to sell my soul or sacrifice babies by moonlight...

What they DID do was offer to help me get started on a path that they knew would work, because they themselves had walked it. They all had first-hand knowledge of what it was like, and what kind of a profound difference it had made in their lives, because they themselves had experienced it.

It isn't brainwashing... Its *teaching*... And its walking along with you, ready to catch you and help you if you stumble... And its not asking anything in return.

For example, I don't do my service work because anyone is requiring me to do so... I do my service work for a very *selfish* reason... I do it because I've learned how invaluable it is to me and how necessary it is to keep me healthy and out of all that pain I used to carry around and throw at people... The miracle is how much good can come from such a selfish act on my part... And the more I do it the more I learn.

Even all these posts I've been writing... Yes, I'm concerned about you... Yes, I want to help you if I can... Yes, I can feel your pain through your posts and yes that pain resonates in my heart and it saddens me to an extent, more than anything probably because you remind me of *me*...

But the main reason I keep posting back, SD, is this... It helps me to deal with my OWN pain... It helps to keep me sober... It help to keep me sane, (or as sane as I can be)... And its as simple as that... And right there is the heart of an AA meeting... What you find here, right on this very thread, is pretty much the same thing you'll find in any AA/NA meeting... And that's the unvarnished truth.

You pick up what helps you and you just leave the rest...

"...Emotionally all raw, psychologically twisted, spiritually empty, alone..." -- what I hear there is someone who is ready to set aside their pre-conceived notions and inaccurate information -- set aside their ego and "contempt prior to investigation" -- for just a minute and simply ask someone for help.

I would say that's a fair statement... I would also say that they don't understand the AA/NA concept of an HP -- again, "contempt prior to investigation"... We talk about a "God of our understanding" and faith... We're not talking about organized religion.

"...Religion is for people who want to avoid h#ll... Faith is for people who have already been there and don't want to go back..."

They aren't just "clever words", SD... We mean them.

If you want to have faith in a doorknob or your guitar, knock yourself out, (although I think that would be a pretty silly thing to do)... If you want to have faith in the group you find, hey go for it... If you want to have faith in Buddha, I'd say that's fine too... Its *your* HP, not mine.

For me personally, I choose God as my HP -- God as I understand Him... It might be the same God as you find in what you call organized religion, but that's my choice, not yours... Likewise, you're free to choose your own HP...

The point is to HAVE an HP... *Something* outside of yourself, larger than yourself, more powerful than what you yourself are capable of, or can accomplish on your own... to be a connected to or a part of a larger context that can *help* you... The point is the "turning outward" instead of the constant turning inward of catering to self (ego).

Your disease knows all about your ego... It does its best to keep you focused on it, because that keeps you focused on your disease, and on catering to it... It will use every faculty of your mind that it can muster to keep you inwardly focused, because that's what keeps your disease alive. That's how it thrives. And it will throw as much pain into your heart as it can and as it needs to in order to keep that inward focus so that your disease CAN stay alive and grow until you are dead, dead, dead...

That's how it works... You remind me of it with many of your posts... You remind me that not so very long ago I was exactly where you are right now... It might not have been opiates, but its the same f#cking disease.

It doesn't have to be that way, SD... That hole in your heart CAN be healed... Life is something that CAN be happy, joyous and free of anguish...

Life Is Beautiful

I'm sorry if this post seems harsh or pushy or like I'm preaching... Please consider it an impassioned plea from someone who really does feel your pain.

I'm really glad that you're feeling a little better now than you were at the beginning of the day... That's a clue.

You are not alone!

SpaceDementia

Alright, alright. Damn you, damn you and finally, damn you. I am now about to look up the time and location of the nearest NA meeting but before I do.....
Harsh, pushy, and preaching don't bother me in the slightest, in fact, I enjoy them and actually need them. I want to say more to you in response but my mind is completely drained and I lack the strength to make my fingers wiggle and type.
Suffice to say I appreciate your post. Appreciate doesn't really even have a strong enough positive connotation for me but the thesaurus' offerings didn't seem right. It's difficult to accurately gauge emotion through only words and no facial expressions sometimes. OK, before my thoughts become completely abstract I shall find me a meeting. GT, thanks. And thanks to everyone else too.

Jersey Nonny

You're welcome! Tell us how the NA meeting goes. You're allowed to mix AA in, too, you know.

SpaceDementia

After my last post last night, I surfed over to the NA website. I checked out the literature for professionals, information on their international "World Service Conference", the NA News, and on and on.... So, I'm reading, learning, realizing that NA stretches across the world and has it's Book translated into all sorts of languages, and the creepy creeps start running up my spine. I go about my mission and I get the location and time of a meeting this Saturday, a few miles away from where I live. Ten meetings were listed and thankfully mine was one of two that aren't held in a church.
Of course today I'm not quite as excited about the prospect of being in a room full of strangers and conversing about rather intimate, personal details. I'm conversing with you guys about intimate details here but this is a pretty sterile environment, free from unnecessary human contact. I said that I'm gonna go and at the very least give it an honest attempt. I just wish the program had 14 steps or 10 or even 11, not 12. 12 is such an esoteric number. There are so many conspiracies surround the number 12.

My last experience with "getting help" just didn't go too well. It was like, 5 years ago, I had just broken up with a girlfriend, I was distraught, and looking for an HP. I remember looking at my bookshelf and I noticed that I had a copy of Dianetics that I had never read. I picked it up and started reading and by golly, it made perfect sense to me. It was a scientific, mathematical, logical approach to a HP. The next day I finished it and felt much better but like an addict, good is never good enough. I went to the local "church" of Scientology that day and spent half the day there speaking with some really nice people. I was asking a lot of questions about the origins of Scientology and about L Ron Hubbard. I already knew that he was a science fiction writer so I was kind of on my guard through this whole thing but these folks actually made sense and they were mighty nice. Well, some how they convinced me to drive 90 minutes the next day to Cincinnati to meet with some other people and see their big, whoopty doo, newly renovated "church". These people were nice too but something was a little off. They sat me down in a miniature theater by myself and started showing me films. That scene from "A Clockwork Orange" where Malcolm McDowell's character has his eyes forced open and drugs pumped into him while they psychologically condition him to have an aversion to violence into his brain, that came to mind. To make a long story short, after the film and some talking they wanted me to sign a contract stating that I would "work' in the "church" for $3.75/hour, I'd have to move to Cincinnati, give up the majority of my possessions for the time being, and live in a dormitory attached to the "church". At this point, I came to my senses and skidattled on out of there.

I still, literally, receive any where from one to four pieces of mail a day from them. Doesn't matter what I do or who I call, they keep inviting me back.
Before I went to that first "church" I looked up Scientology online and saw....literature for professionals, information on their international conventions, the Scientology News, how all of their books are translated into a billion different languages.......
That was my one and only time straying from my natural inclination to avoid any kind of organization dealing with a HP or mental state or......
I know, my thought process is probably irrational and NA and Scientology have nothing to do with each other, I know, I know....I'll go to one meeting and see what happens.

Jersey Nonny

Quote:

There are so many conspiracies surround the number 12.

Perhaps you'd prefer 13? How many "conspiracies" can you find surrounding that number. I swear, SD, I don't think I've ever "met" anyone who could over-analyze things the way you do!

They're just going to love you at meetings. Be sure to ask them about "Thirteen Stepping".

SpaceDementia

Well, actually 13 is an esoteric number too. The numbers: 1 and 12 used together to describe 1 set of 12 somethings or 1 + 12 to describe 13 of something. There's a secret why this country started out with 13 colonies and why friday the 13th is unlucky and why.....
Evil things are associated with the number 23 too.
The numbers don't bother me too much anymore, i've moved on to bigger stuff.

adore79

lmao

serenityqueen

I have to agree. You do tend to analyze everything!

I'm curious about something. If all the meetings in your area were only held in a church, would you still go? Just because the meeting is held in a church doesn't mean you're going to church for goodness sakes. Now, I know I'm setting myself up for a researched, analytical answer here! lol I have never been to a meeting that just happened to be held in the basement of a church where nuns walked in and out of the room while the stages of the Cross were on the walls. I can pretty much tell you from experience, once you get in the room the meeting is held in, you soon forget you are in a church. In my area, just about all of the NA meetings are held in churches. I guess it's because the church is kind enough to realize that we addicts are children of God and haven't committed some huge sin on society. We simply need somewhere to meet, without attracting alot of attention, and share our experience, strength and hope with others.

Finally, will someone please tell me how to quote a previous post so it's in the little blue box on my post?

SpaceDementia

Providing you're using the "new default style" format for the forum(that tab is at the very, very bottom on the left) you should see a few icons at the bottom right corner of every post. It's next to the "Say Thank You For This Post" and "Send PM" button. Click the button on the corresponding post and viola, you have quoted someone and it's in the little blue box.
If your color style is set to classic blue, I don't think you see those buttons....

GreenTea

LOL... Its like I'm talking to a mirror... (No offense meant!)

Congrats on your decision to at least *try* an NA meeting... Be advised, they will in all probability pass around a basket... No one will care if you don't put anything into it, so don't freak out...

The zombies are everywhere... And they're *organized*...

The same could be said for "Lord of the Rings" and its fans.

You don't have to say a single word while you're there if you don't want to...

Like talking to a mirror... I'm a natural isolator myself, SD...

If it had 14 or 10 or 11, the disease would find something wrong with that as well...

Maybe there are so many conspiracies around the number 12 because its such a downright convenient number?

All the literature is probably printed in black ink on white paper too, just like the Necronomicom, huh?

Wow! I'm glad you saw it for what it is... Those people *are* a cult (in my opinion)...

Maybe think of the experience as good training for you... As a result, you should be able to discern the difference.

I read "Dianetics" once... I thought it was a load of hogwash... I still have a hard time believing that anyone takes Scientology seriously.

When they send you something, don't even open it... Just write "Return To Sender" on it and put it back in the mailbox. They'll get the message eventually... You might also try calling them one last time and say, "Do not contact me -- do not mail anything to me -- take me off of all your lists everywhere -- I want nothing to do with you -- I will construe ANY further contact from you as continued harassment -- my next step is to get a restraining order against you and sue you". Say it nice and calmly and professionally. Don't wait for a response -- simply hang up after the last sentence, and then write down the date and time.

BINGO!!!

Please let us know how your first NA experience went... I'd like to hear about it.

SpaceDementia

The basket's for donations, right? I really don't mind giving them $20 if it helps . I always complained about how much the methadone clinic cost but buying it illicitly for more $ per mg, I was spending around $500 a month. Which for me, as I am quite impoverished, was a bit too much. It's starting to hit me that I'll have money to make some mods to my car and put extra dough in my savings account. Always, I had to ration my funds, put off eating, take the bus since I didn't have gas money, all so that I could score some smack. So even if NA doesn't work (though I plan on going several times until I get a feel for it) I don't mind giving them a few bucks.



Really? I thought it was pretty damn interesting. It broadened my vocabulary. I had to keep a dictionary near me when I was reading since Mr. Hubbard found it amusing to use archaic definitions for words. It's especially difficult to take Scientology seriously once you learn about their core beliefs. They don't expose you to their core beliefs until they have washed your noggin' a bit first. If you don't know, just google the word Xenu. That's the diabolical alien being that started everything, according to Mr. Hubbard.


Trust me, I have tried everything. They don't have my phone number (maybe there is a God) just my address. It's not just your run of the mill mass produced pamphlets either. Usually I just throw the stuff away buy the other day I noticed this envelope addressed to me from "them" only this one was hand written. It came from Cincinnati so I take it that it's from one of the folks that I spoke with but I don't remember. I can't decipher the handwriting anyways.
No, I've excepted that some mistakes you pay for for life.

I'll be sure to let you know what happens. Thanks again GT

serenityqueen

Click the button on the corresponding post and viola, you have quoted someone and it's in the little blue box.

Now, is this in the little blue box?

serenityqueen

Guess not. Well, if first you don't succeed, try, try again.

But I think I'll make it tomorrow.

Goodnight all,

God Bless

barb dwyer

boy. you people sure like to use a lot of words. I thought it was just me.

first let's don't confuse the ability to memorize tons of information as intelligence.

it's simply a capacity to remember a whole lot of stuff.

it doesn't make on necessarily 'smart'. or 'intelligent'.

secondly - I"m surprised more addicts havent jumped on board, but I'll throw my own two bus tokens on here and say that your feeling like you are jumping around intellectually is very common when coming off methadone. so you're not that far off line, there SD. But feeling like no one is going to understand you intellectually or spiritually is kinda underrating folks as well. YOu haven't even gotten to the plain MY particular mountain is on, buddy. You've just read about it.

I saw briefly (sorry folks I have a life- I didn't read through that whole dissertation thread) I mean I only work a ten hour shift. There are other worlds than these.

I think This is a whole apples and oranges thing going on and that old game kids play where they 'stack hands'. You know that playground game? Stacking hands?

Can't be won.

Anyhow - To make the grey box, Serenity - funny the 'intellectuals' couldn't be bothered to tell ya - I'm gonna spread it out, but when YOU make it - you gotta cram it all together , ok?

[ Q U O T E ] put whatever you want to put inside it right here then [ / Q U O T E ]

GreenTea

A buck a meeting is the usual donation, SD... and its optional.

I think South Park covered it well.

Barb: You beat me to it... SQ was helping.

beckybeagle

((((((((((((((((((SD)))))))))))))))))))))))))

Don't be so harsh on yourself. You have been good, give yourself credit for that. Once I was just like you, doing thigs all by myself, having trouble asking for any help. Age does wonderful thing. Later, I learned "accepting is also a great strenght for a person to have. It is not easy one. Majority people have problem with that. I started to partice and keep on doing it. Then pay it foward anytime I can. Good to see you. Sent you PM last nite.

Here is some info I found on WebMD support group on Subetex that you are taking. You might know this already since you are a smarty pantes. hehehe, but hope it helps. ( I put responce first, then original post.)
===============================================

Thanks for the votes of confidence. Sometimes it's really hard to do this, and I feel like giving up. But then someone like you, says I helped them. Thanks again. That's all I get, you know. It's not like WebMD pays me to do this. And I've been sick for over a week. I wasn't even out of bed for like 3 days. I think I have a virus, and I think some other meds my pdoc gave me threw me into opiate detox, complete with all the wds you'd expect.

I'm glad to hear you're doing so good. You are on Subutex, right, not Suboxone? I think Subx is so much better. I don't see why us pain victims have to be subjected to the Naloxone in Suboxone. We're not needle freaks, we're not going to shoot up the Subx. I do want to tell you that I think you should stick with the 1 mg at night a little longer. Don't try and reduce the dose too quickly. If you start feeling wds again you may panic and take too much. I'd say stay with the 3 mg a day for 5 days, and then reduce the dose. Since you want off this completely, make sure you don't stay on this longer than 2 or 3 weeks. If you do you'll become hooked on it. Like I told you else where, you're not tricking your brain into thinking it's getting an opiate. Sub is a real opiate. It's just a very unique one. But it is an opiate and you can become hooked on it. Another thing you need to understand is that Sub has a 48 hour half life. That means it takes 2 days for half of it to get out of you. So when you make a dose reduction, it takes 2 days to really feel it. And you won't get the full effect of the reduction for 4 days. I tried to quit once, and I did fine until day #4, and then the really bad wds started.

What you're doing is in essence walking a tightrope. You want to stay on a low dose of Sub long enough to wait out the severe wds of the Vics you were on, but then you want to quickly wean off the Sub before you get hooked on that. So the severe wds from Vic is for 10 days, give or take a day or 2. You'll also get hooked on Sub by the 3rd or 4th week. So if today is day 3 off Vics, and on Sub, you're still in the time frame of the severe wds from Vic. That's why I said don't reduce the Sub yet. But you can try it. In fact go ahead and try it, and let me know what happens. If you start to get wds just take the 1 mg. Don't worry about what time it is. Just take the extra 1 mg if you need it.
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I have started on subutex and have been on it for the past 3 days. After taking vicodin 7.5 500 for over 2 years straight....taking between 20 - 30 per day....I am completely off of them. I feel great! Taximan convinced me to go through the subutex detox program again. I tried before but it didn't seem to work. I now know it was because I had a doctor that didn't really understand that the less subutex you take the better you feel. This time I am on 2mg in the morning and 1 mg at night. Today (the 3rd day) I took one 2mg this morning and will try to make it through the night without another subutex pill. If I can't make it then I will take another 1mg. I am hoping that after 5 days I should be able to not take any more subutex pills. This is really good news for me and it could be for you too. I have some much drive to stop taking these vicodins and I am going to make it this time. I want to thank taximan for his words of wisdom. Please contact him anytime with questions as he has a life time of experience. Thanks Taximan! You saved me life and got my wife her husband back and my kids their dad back. I love you man!