jen in me

My one hang-up about trusting AA is some terrible things I have heard about Bill W. and his treatment of his wife.

I won't go into more detail than that. I really do not want to offend anyone...but it's hard for me to hope my husband will try AA when I have heard these things.

If these things were true, would they change the way you felt about your 12-step AA program?
Does it matter to you, what kind of person the founder of AA was?

Maybe it just doesn't matter...or maybe these things aren't true.

Thoughts or any help with this? This also presents itself as a little nagging thought as I am reading my Al-Anon book and it constantly seems to be encouraging me to stay in my marriage. I do see the wisdom - of not making decisions when I am not in a mental state to do so, using my memory to remember the good (not the bad) and not as a tool of revenge every chance I get, and that everybody - even the alcoholic husband - has something about him that is worthy of love and respect - but then I start to think that these ideas are very convenient for the alcoholic husband. He can cheat, and drink, and wife-y will just work on improving herself.

Just being honest about my thoughts and hoping for some help with this. I can't work this program if I can't trust it and I've just very recently realized I have a huge hang-up in this area.

Jen

Rowan

Where did you hear this information about Bill W. and Lois? Did you read it?

And really - does it matter?

jen in me

Well - Whenever I am looking at a belief system, I try to look at it from all angles. I got wrapped up in some wrong thinking earlier in my marriage, so I'm afraid of that happening to me again. I still have to talk myself down from those old beliefs - that if I could just be the perfect wife, my husband wouldn't "have to"....etc.

So in looking at AA - and my part of it, which would be Al-Anon, I read some very anti-Bill stuff on the internet...and, yes, what I read was basically saying, "how can you trust a program, that basically looks up to a guy, their leader, who is not what he says he is?"

And I am asking if anyone else has heard this kind of stuff - very anti-AA program stuff - but still made the decision to TRUST the program. Because, that's what it boils down to for me. I have huge TRUST issues and am afraid to be taken advantage of! This is something I have realized as I try to progress - as I read my Al-Anon book. I am afraid to trust it. And, if the man who discovered/founded it all was a scoundrel...I think it might matter to me.
So I'm asking for help with this. I hope that's okay.

Rowan

Well - there's a lot of history out there on AA - so, I don't know if your sources from the internet are reliable or not. I haven't heard that about Bill W., but it doesn't mean it's not true.
Bill W. was an alcoholic, as I am, and he's founded a program that has helped millions of men and women to get sober. That's why I go to AA meetings. If it turned out to be true, that he were abusive, I'm not sure it would change my opinion of him. I've got a lot of character defects myself, and it's only through sobriety that I can begin to effect any sort of change.
I'm grateful that AA exists.

Anna

Hi Jen,

I don't know about this information that you have found.

I think, whatever program you follow, you should just do whatever you need to do, in order to stay sober!

mike_mass

Yes, there are plenty of sources, many credible, that talk of Bill W's philandering, megalomania, etc. The Orange Papers has a host of references in this regard. I've spent time reading and researching this topic and have come to the conclusion that Bill suffered not only from alcoholism but also from being a chronic human being. The latter is as insidious a disease as the former because it affects all areas of our lives. The real twist of it all is that a person who has many bad traits is still somehow capable of doing many good things (St. Paul started off as an accessory to murder, Bill Clinton, well you know, Bill Gates is a monopolist but is pooring a gazillion dollars into charity).

So if you are looking for a program that has a perfect track record you are apt to be on the search for the rest of your life.

laurie6781

That was probably "The Orange Papers" or excerpt from them. The guy has a real 'burning desire' to get rid of AA. Why? I don't know.

Now as to Lois and Bill. Bill W passed before I got sober and clean, however, Lois made many trips to Southern California and I was lucky to get to talk to her several times as she stayed usually with people I was close.

She knew that many alcoholic women had been physically abused, but never once did she say she had been. She did talk about the 'mental abuse' and the manipulations that occurred while Bill W was still drinking. She would also talk about feeling like a 'widow' the first few years of his sobriety, but was very grateful that he was sober and doing something constructive with his life. She didn't say much about his skirt chasing..........................just would say it had been resolved.

If you haven't read it already Bill W also tried LSD to help with his chronic depression. It sure doesn't matter to me. I believe the 12 step program works IF WE WORK IT.

No it would not change how I feel about my 12 step program. The 12 steps work for those who want them and are willing to work the steps and live the steps.

People in AA usually say no major changes the first year. At 3 years sober, my sponsor strongly suggested that I also attend Alanon, as I was married to a sober alkie whose program I kept trying to work or have him work 'my way.' rofl and I did. Again I heard no major changes the first year (of being in Alanon)

I also learned how to set boundaries and I learned to keep my eyes off the alcoholic and on ME.

I hope you are using our Friends and Family of Alcoholics Forum.

Please keep posting and let us know how YOU are doing, we do care.


Love and hugs,

jen in me

And I totally hear you on that, Mike.

I don't think it has to be perfect but I hope you understand my particular fear in this decision.
Being married to an unfaithful alcoholic, it is a scary thought to take 'advice' from one...because I am afraid that this advice was created with the wrong intent. And I know about Orange papers...but I read this on Wikipedia. Extreme sites scare me off, because I assume they are just way overboard.

Maybe I just have too much baggage in this area? Maybe a good program can come from an unlikely source? I'm willing to agree with these statements...but I am also wanting to be careful.

I do not need something perfect...but just something that I can trust the intentions of.

mike_mass

Jen,

If your husband hooks up with mature people in AA and works the steps I think you will see a marked improvement in his character. It worked for me and many others I know.

jen in me

Thanks, Laurie.
Maybe when Bill was doing the wrong things - he was not actively working the program he helped bring about.

I will get over to the other forum again soon. And thank you SO much for caring. I have no one I am comfortable talking to about this. When you share this kind of stuff with people, but you don't leave your husband...it's just a mess. People do not seem to understand that there is not some miracle quick-fix when you have a home and children that you love and care for.

Thanks again.

I was just posting this question in this forum because I figured I am a newcomer to the Al-Anon program. I have been to 4 meetings...and they were over a year ago. I am considering making the effort to go back.

Octoman

Hi Jen
I am not an AAer but I can see for many people it works wonders. That is all that matters. The progaram is designed to help its members become better people. Many start out from a dark place including Bill W. Maybe he had his demons, but he certainly didnt have them BECAUSE of AA. The one thing you can be sure of is that joining AA wont make your husband a worse person. Alcohol will do that.

CarolD

Hmm...
If anyone is interested in Bill W's ideas please read
"As Bill Sees It"
As far as I know...it's the only book he wrote alone.

Our AA program ....
outlined in the Big Book and 12&12
was written by many early newly sober alcoholics.

Bill W was a co founder along with Dr. Bob S.

AA does not require halo's

MsPINKAcres

Hi Jen

I'm Rita & have been in Al-Anon for 4 yrs. It is my understanding that Bill W. with help of a few others started the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. His wife Lois W. and Anne B. formed the the Clearing House Committee that gathered information & started the Al-Anon Family Groups. The 12 steps of AA & 12 Traditions were adopted as guidelines.

The Al-Anon program is based on the basic principles of the 12 steps of AA, but it was founded by the wives of alcoholics. By women who understood what it was like to have their lives, marriages, families and financial security turned upside down by someone else's drinking.

I too have heard many others say negative things about Bill W. - but when I read Lois story - when she talked about throwing a shoe at Bill - even when he was sober - I knew this was a woman who understood how I felt.

This is why I am willing to devote myself to the program of Al-Anon. Because the people in these rooms understand what I have lived with, what I am going thru today and what I will face tomorrow like no dr, clergy, therapist, counselor and anyone else can - They have walked the same road as me. Maybe a few details, names and dates have changed - but the basics are there.

This is why Al-Anon works for me and is helping me to live Happy, Joyous and Free - One Day at a Time.

Wishing you the same,
Rita

eire rose

People are fallible.

Jersey Nonny

I believe Bill W. was an imperfect human being in an imperfect world...add to that the effects of alcohol...and, you have someone who was looking for a way to stay sober and become a better human being...not a perfect one.

I believe AA is a program of recovery that has helped 100's of thousands of alcoholics in the past 70+ years...and, consider all of the other 12-Step Programs based on the AA philosophy: Al-Anon, NA, Nar-Anon, Over-Eater's Anonymous, Gambler's Anonymous, etc.

I am always suspect of "smear campaigns" that resort to digging up dirt in an effort to undermine anything that is basically good. The author of "The Orange Papers" obviously has an agenda aimed at discrediting AA through the imperfections of one of its founders. I'm really not interested in such petty drivel, and it would in no way change my opinion of AA as a whole, which has taught me how to stay sober for the past 27years.

My alcoholic husband of 25 years was also a cheat; and, we did divorce. But, I'm pleased to say he was sober through AA for over 20 years when he passed away. If I based my belief system on the human failings of others, I would have changed my religion from Roman Catholic (if you know what I mean).

jen in me

I, too, am wary of 'smear campaigns.' While I have looked at the Orange papers, what really affected me was Wikipedia - which is far from a smear campaign. It bothered me that it has been reported that Bill used meetings to his advantage - when it came to being unfaithful to his wife.
Furthermore, people can be just as extreme on the other side of things - idolizing Bill. So I was trying to really investigate it...and work out my own thoughts and beliefs.

I know a few people around here that are in AA - as alcoholics. I am NOT an alcoholic, but am married to one. It freaks me out when they talk about the Big Book as - well practically being written "through Bill, by God." If one is going to follow a mere man that intensely, well, then yea - I say he should qualify, and I would base whether or not I followed him on that.

I would be wary of a program that would encourage me to stay around my unfaithful, drunk husband if it was founded by an unfaithful, drunk husband. Just want to make my concern clear.

Now, I think I am going to decide that a good program came from a troubled man, who stopped working his program - hence the bad reports near the end there.

That's where I'm at right now. This was about Al-Anon and my fear of trusting it. Not so much about my fear of my husband being in AA.

Coincidentally, I just found out that he will be attending his first meeting soon.

mike_mass

So well said. Orange is basically a secular humanist who can't get past the mystical aspects of the program, IMHO.

BigSis

Bill is dead. He is no longer our "leader", if he ever was.

I believe the 12 steps and traditions are quite inspired, and they came about as part of a process that included many people. Today, we refer to such a team process as "synergy" - when the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I don't care how Bill lived - before or after the birth of AA. I care about what the 12-step program gives me today. Most of it can be found in other places ... it is common sense! But the 12-step package is quite efficient and effective.

After I read some of the "orange papers", I talked with my sponsor. She said something that stuck with me: Most folks who are "anti" anything are usually very focused on the "anti" instead of the anything.

((hugs))

Jersey Nonny

Quote:

I don't care how Bill lived - before or after the birth of AA. I care about what the 12-step program gives me today. Most of it can be found in other places ... it is common sense! But the 12-step package is quite efficient and effective.

After I read some of the "orange papers", I talked with my sponsor. She said something that stuck with me: Most folks who are "anti" anything are usually very focused on the "anti" instead of the anything.

And, can we follow that with a big AMEN!?!

CarolD

Gee...I forget...
how long were Lois and Bill married before he died?

It seems to me that their marriage
nor anyone elses
is none of my business.