nogard

Good Morning and where has my halo gone!

It works if we work it.

Kevin

Doug

Doesn't matter to me. He's dead and gone, and it's not like they teach that stuff at AA.

nogard

Doug, good to see you. How are you?

Kevin

Luckyv2

You know you probably got that info from a source like I did once and posted a post here that AA has been on the decline for many years now around 6 I think is what I read. Tried to go back and find it but couldn't.

I guess for me it doesn't matter what Bill did, What Bob did, it is what they did to help others to clean up there lives. In fact what they produced has helped millions to get sober.

None of us are perfect and most of us have a checkered life, and I for one am one of them. I don't regret my life today, yeah I did some crappy things but those things are my strength today. LOL if you think that Bill has a situation with his wife. OMG you had better not even go into the forum of stories and read mine.

So I guess what I am saying is that anyone can change and we have to remember this little prayer and not be so judgemental.

I am not the person that I aught to be
I am not the person that I am going to be
I am not the person that I should be
But thank you God I am better than I was.

LOL I am human still

barb dwyer

Nicely put, MikeMass.

To quite my favorite Monty Python :
"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition"

I had to just sit here and think about this before trying to post anything.

What I'm thinking goes something like this:

The religion does not exist that had perfect founders.
The government hasn't been created that had flaw-less creators. Not one single piece of 'classic' artwork was created by anyone who didn't , at some point in their life ... do something wrong.
Something ... perverted.

Van Gough ate his own paint for craps sake.
But 'Cypress' is guaranteed to make you smell pine.
And feel the cool relief of a summer night's breeze.

Caravaggio got kicked out of three countries.
He was voilent, mean natured ... and a general creep.
Not one of the Masters can touch his perfect understanding
of light dancing around and off of positive and negative space.

There's a REASON Raphael painted little boys.
We'll just let that one lay there.

This here .... is the real world.
We embark on a path of recovery ...
to be able to live in this world.
The real one.
We've lived lives of fiction and it's almost killed us.
Where we tried to pretend everyone is better than us and we were hiding that we have done wrong to ourselves and others.

Perfect people with sinless histories do not exist in this world.
They are only found on tv.

I think the best thing to do would be to go over to the
'Friends and Family' forums ... and start your own program.

Personally,
I don't care if any of the founders kept their own private herd of sheep -
one simple truth remains -
the twelve Steps ... work.
If you work them.

jen in me

I probably should have my second cup of coffee right now - before posting. But I just sat down at the computer for a moment this morning and noticed this new series of posts.

I'm not sure I really understand why people are bringing up halos and perfection.

Look - I don't need any of you, or Bill, Bob or their wives, to be perfect.

Doesn't anyone understand my specific question? I had my question answered and was feeling pretty good about it...I made a decision based on the first set of replies...and I said that.

My specific fear, my feeling of vulnerability, is very real. I came from the thinking - from this stupid program I got involved in 5 years ago - that if I just kept sacrificing, keeping quiet, doing more, being more, respecting/loving/submitting no matter what - that my husband would be ABLE to be the husband he was meant to be. Everything was my fault. It has been a VERY difficult mindset to let go of and I brought it upon myself by working that program.

The other day, reading my one day at a time book, I read something that encouraged me to stay in my marriage, not make any major decisions when I'm not in the mental state to do so. It made TOTAL sense...but then this weird fear came over me.

This isn't about perfection, okay? I don't know why people are bringing that up. Don't you understand that if an unfaithful man wrote that stuff - it would be to his own benefit? To keep his wife around no matter what?

My husband has always wanted to keep me around. He finds a way for things to be my fault. When I catch him doing something, he is mad at me for looking where I shouldn't have looked - or whatever - even if I didn't mean to catch him!

So that's what I was being careful of. I'm not sure some here even read my posts...it's like they just freaked out and started defending the program they love, and telling me how imperfect they are and all of that.

I am not qualified to start my own program. That's why I'm hoping to find something I can trust. I shared a fear I had - a real fear - and received some answers (in the beginning of the thread) that helped me through it.
Thank you for your help.

Some people do teach "Bill stuff," as referenced above. There is a group in my area that goes through Bill's book (I think it's called, "As Bill sees it" or something).

I'm really not sure how my honest question - in the newcomers section, because I'm very new - is a judgmental one. If something is publicly said of someone, isn't it okay to publicly ask about it? If I'm going to put my trust in something, I just want to make sure I'm safe.

Thank you.

Steve58

Hi Jen,

I have to ask, what was this program you were involved in? From the one line explaination you posted of it, it must have been invented for some other species, not humans. I'm amazed there is a program out there that actually teaches you how to enable anothers wrongdoings.

Let me 'splain something, there is nagging and browbeating, which can drive a man away, BUT, there is also implied consent that will only encourage his behavior. It's like a child, looking for limits, and if you dont set any, and dont react when boundries are breached, he will continue to push them.

I have to add my voice to the others, I'm not an AA'er, but for every success, there is a smear campaign. AA works, no matter who founded it, or what his personal habits may or may not have been. I'd rather learn mountain climbing from someone with a few scars and war stories, than someone that obviously had no real experience.

JMHO!
Steve

jen in me

Thanks so much, Steve.

The program was through Restore Ministries and a "friend" sent me a workbook for wives that was supposed to help me. I also read some really intense books in that area...but I don't want to list too much as it does get into religious beliefs and all of that.

I'm off for that 2nd cup of coffee and my 'one day at a time book.'

Incidentally, my husband did NOT go to the AA meeting this morning. And, he is only going to go for the required 6 meetings - in order to get his driver's license back. But I am feeling that Al-Anon will be safe for me. I know that I need something. I've come a long way...but it would be easy to slip back - not to mention that I have a long way to go.

Thanks again...have a good one!

Jen

Afraid2Succeed

I don't believe it's a smear campaign that we're talking aboot. Like Jen said, the facts were written by Susan Cheever, a journalist. Here is her article from Time magazine:

"Bill W.: from the rubble of a wasted life, he overcame alcoholism and founded the 12-step program that has helped millions of others do the same." (Time's "The Most Important People of the 20th Century".) Susan Cheever. Time 153.23 (June 14, 1999): p201+.


Bill has helped a lot of people with his synthesis of theology, psychology and democracy. Bill also has a checkered past involving philandering and other compulsions.

Jen's concern is one based from experience, and I think it's only fair to speak the truth.

GlassPrisoner

Hi Jen.

My Ex wife made the same mistake. She went to a local Church and joined their study group. She did everything they told Her, but I didn't change !!!. It drove her nuts, literally.

I've seen Wifes end up with knives in their arms (not mine) and in the mental ward from trying to control their husbands drinking.

Forget about your husband and his drinking. Get to Alanon, and work on your recovery.

Jersey Nonny

Quote:

Now, I think I am going to decide that a good program came from a troubled man, who stopped working his program - hence the bad reports near the end there.

I read this and thought you had resolved any uncertainties you had. Now, I come on and see a whole new "can o' worms", which wasn't clear when you first posted this thread.

Quote:

I came from the thinking - from this stupid program I got involved in 5 years ago - that if I just kept sacrificing, keeping quiet, doing more, being more, respecting/loving/submitting no matter what - that my husband would be ABLE to be the husband he was meant to be. Everything was my fault. It has been a VERY difficult mindset to let go of and I brought it upon myself by working that program.

So, it wasn't just Bill's shortcomings and that you felt he might have been a bit hypocritical in founding AA. That explains a whole lot more.

Quote:

Incidentally, my husband did NOT go to the AA meeting this morning. And, he is only going to go for the required 6 meetings - in order to get his driver's license back.

I never care why people come to AA...hopefully, the seed will be planted, and they will decide to stay. It does happen.

Quote:

But I am feeling that Al-Anon will be safe for me. I know that I need something. I've come a long way...but it would be easy to slip back - not to mention that I have a long way to go.

A good decision, I think. Remember...he will always be an alcoholic. I hope and pray, for both your sakes, he will eventually be a sober one.

Fenian_Man

Hi Jen,

There have been a lot of good things said here, so I do not have much to add. I do have some time in Al-Anon as well as AA. I would predict a couple of things from a good Al-Anon group:

First, they would recommend and provide assistance getting out immediately if there is physical abuse or danger.

Second, in the absence of immediate physical danger, the approach I've seen is to help newcomers get out of that feeling of always being in a crisis. Once my own mind and soul are more stable, I'm better able to make important decisions. I went to a parent's meeting for about a year, and saw nothing but support for whatever decisions people made about how to handle their situations. "There is no cookbook" was the attitude I encountered. (Dang it...)

It sure wasn't an approach that "if I get better, the other person will too". It was more like I should put my own oxygen mask on before trying to help my child.

Kudos to you, IMHO, Al-Anon is a LOT harder program to work.

Peace,
FM

daydream

Hi Jen, I read this thread and saw comments about not being perfect, being human, and didn't raise an eyebrow. Those comments are just part of our lingo, to remind ourselves that messing up doesn't mean we've failed, that we don't have to get perfect, etc. I don't think those comments were meant to be defensive or to offend you at all. I agree with others, Bill is not our leader. He was the founder and wrote some of the literature many years ago. Regardless of how he lived his life, the program works for us as much as we apply it. I hope this helps. And I think Al-Anon is a GREAT idea. Hugs!

NoelleR

Hey Jen ---- (o:

From what I've read from your posts, I'm getting the understanding that you're not sure you trust the Al-Anon program, as its founder might have had an agenda.....as you wrote.....:

1) "...as I am reading my Al-Anon book and it constantly seems to be encouraging me to stay in my marriage. I do see the wisdom - of not making decisions when I am not in a mental state to do so, using my memory to remember the good (not the bad) and not as a tool of revenge every chance I get, and that everybody - even the alcoholic husband - has something about him that is worthy of love and respect - but then I start to think that these ideas are very convenient for the alcoholic husband. He can cheat, and drink, and wife-y will just work on improving herself..."

2) "...I would be wary of a program that would encourage me to stay around my unfaithful, drunk husband if it was founded by an unfaithful, drunk husband. Just want to make my concern clear..."

3) "...The other day, reading my one day at a time book, I read something that encouraged me to stay in my marriage, not make any major decisions when I'm not in the mental state to do so. It made TOTAL sense...but then this weird fear came over me.

"This isn't about perfection, okay? I don't know why people are bringing that up. Don't you understand that if an unfaithful man wrote that stuff - it would be to his own benefit? To keep his wife around no matter what?.."


I believe Japic05 (Rita) stated earlier, and I concur.....:

"...It is my understanding that Bill W. with help of a few others started the program of Alcoholics Anonymous. His wife Lois W. and Anne B. formed the the Clearing House Committee that gathered information & started the Al-Anon Family Groups. The 12 steps of AA & 12 Traditions were adopted as guidelines.

"The Al-Anon program is based on the basic principles of the 12 steps of AA, but it was founded by the wives of alcoholics. By women who understood what it was like to have their lives, marriages, families and financial security turned upside down by someone else's drinking.

"I too have heard many others say negative things about Bill W. - but when I read Lois story - when she talked about throwing a shoe at Bill - even when he was sober - I knew this was a woman who understood how I felt...?

So, you see, ...... no worry!!.....lol ...... It doesn't matter what kind of man Bill W was, or even if AA may help your husband, and with only doing the minimum requirement to satisfy the return of his driver's license, I doubt it will be much help, at least not right now, in this moment of time...................BUT, Al-Anon might surely help you, and YOU are what's important right now.............. (o:


NoelleR

indigo

Personally I know nothing about the big book and I'm not an AAer, I do know it works for many people. Their are other recovery programmes that work for some and not for others. Read up and what works for you then work it...if you have misgivings you could try a meeting and see how you find it, every meeting has different people and it's different strokes for different people. I wish you well and that you can find something that doesn't feel to compromise your position.

rubycanoe

You do not have to go to Al-anon. It has a very confusing message. It is not your fault the three C's (I didn't cause it, I can't control it ,I can't cure it) but it also seems to say that it is our fault and we need to change or they will keep drinking. So do not go if you do not want, it is your decision. I sometimes read the al-anon material, have tried a few meetings, stuck with it once for a couple months, but that meeting is no longer available, have tried a few more times but did not feel comfortable, the last time the meeting was basically taken over by an alcoholic/addict (recovering) who is dating an addict ,but made me extremely uncomfortable, took my book as he didnt have one, (so now i didnt have one) was wearing very short shorts, very loud. i have not been back, i like to read some of the info some of the time, but please do not think you have to go or that you have to work a program, you dont, and it is not your fault. take care

Luckyv2

This caught my eye and we all are the people that we are meant to be without being interfered with from anyone else. We each are right where we are suppose to be at this moment.