L Ron Hoover

Hello, all.
I've been going to my meetings, got a sponsor, been reading. I've been in and out of AA for a while, so I know what goes on, and what all the steps are, read the Big Book, etc.

I've been working on the first step. My sponsor wants me to write about powerlessness and unmanageability. And as I do, I start thinking about how this is supposed to work. If I'm really powerless over alcohol, why have I managed to stay sober at times for days or weeks on my own? If my life has become unmanageable, why do I have a job, car, house, good credit, decent health, live pets?

The only answers I get are the standard AA jargon- "Keep coming back." "One day at a time." "All the answers are in the book."

And then I start to think about the second step. I don't believe I'm insane. And if I don't believe I'm insane, how can I expect to be restored to sanity?

I enjoy the fellowship and the people, and have made many friends. I need to be reminded about what can happen to me from those who really had it bad.

I've read "Under the Influence", and have come to the conclusion that my alcohol addiction is indeed the result of a chemical difference in my body and how processes alcohol, that it is a medical/physical ailment, and not the result of my self-centeredness, or my self-will run riot. I don't see how confessing my past misdeeds is going to help this.

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated.

LRH

Live

Check in at the secular forums for other programs of recovery, if you are interested.

Rowan

Hi,

I can only share my own experience - and yes, I've become disillusioned with AA at times, but mostly in very early sobriety - it's finally 'stuck' for me - but I do understand that it's not that way for everyone.

I was a 'high bottom' drunk - I didn't lose any of those things either (yet). I was able to stop drinking for periods of time. Trouble was, I never stayed stopped for good.

Ask yourself this: if you aren't powerless over alcohol, and if your life isn't unmanageable, why DO you go to AA?

I get frustrated by people who point to the BB and tell you to read so-and-so page, too. But I do find slogans like "Keep Coming Back' helpful, because I relapsed twice, and still they told me to keep coming. So I did.

Insanity - is kind of a broad term. I think it more refers to the fact that we are/were strangely insane when it came to alcohol. For me, it was how I continued to drink despite knowing what would happen based on past horrendous consequences. Insanity doesn't mean you are crazy.

If you enjoy the friendship and fellowship, and are staying sober, I'd say you are doing well. Try to take the steps piecemeal right now, if you can. Take what you need, and leave the rest, as we say.

I never thought I would be one of those believers, one of those AA people who sling slogans, but the change has happened for me, and I have been restored to some semblance of sanity.

I don't know if this helped you - but I hope that it did.

Rowan

L Ron Hoover

Rowan-
Yes it did. I was thinking the same thing, "take what I like and leave the rest" while I was driving to my meeting tonite. I really DO like a lot of the people, we DO have a lot in common. I like to help out setting up at my local meeting place, and welcoming the newcomer. I just find it very frustrating to have what I consider a legitimate, logical question, only to be answered by some trite cliche. I practice an alternative religion, and have for years. I find it difficult to reconcile what I believe with what a lot of the steps say.

I'm certainly not anti-AA, or anything like that. I've seen it work wonders with some people. I've also seen some folks with a decent amount time go get drunk again.
I go to a lot of meetings, 4 or 5 a week. I truly value the friendship and support I've gotten from the PEOPLE, but I'm beginning to wonder if the PROGRAM is right for me.

Thanks for your input
LRH

slash

Good for you for having the balls to post your uncertainties. Remember that AA is simply a program of suggestion. There are no rules...no one who knows how to get you sober...etc. This includes the slogans and big book writings. These as well as the meetings and sponsors, etc are simply sharing personal experiences and perhaps things they have witnessed in an attempt to assist you (us) in finding something that works for you (us). AA isn't the answer for everyone..in fact in my opinion..it shouldn't be the ANSWER for anyone. It should be nothing more than a tool utilized to facilitate discovery of individual answers. And don't get me started on "powerlessness" . We tend to focus too much on what we are powerless over when in reality that is such a small percentage of our lives. We have power over much more than what we do not have power over -- THAT is where our focus should be (IMO) as that is empowering and motivating. Folks tend to abbreviate and say "I am powerless" BULLS**T - I have never met a powerless person in my life. This is self defeating, self pity language. We need to say what we mean. If we mean we are powerless over addiction...say so...powerless over others...say so. Make sense? I know it's just semantics..but it makes a difference. I always try to speak from the positive. For example -- rather than saying "I haven't had a drink in 11 years" I try to always phrase it in positive terms - "I HAVE been sober for 11 years" - sorry if I got off track, but I think this might be helpful to you. Also remember with regard to insanity, we are talking about AA - the AA definition of insanity isn't straight jacket and padded room...it's "trying the same thing over and over again expecting different results" You mentioned you dig the fellowship -- in my opinion..that alone is enough reason to stick around. That is huge. Lastly, regarding confessing past misdeeds...I can tell you from personal experience, this is very freeing. It allowed me start fresh, to let go of resentments..some of which I was unaware were holding me back and I was able to shed some guilt and shameful feelings.
ANYWAY...i don't know if any of this qualifies as the "words of wisdom" you mentioned...but it's all I got! Good luck. You will be great -- you aren't a puppet. You want answers and you are brave enough to ask. You will go far, my friend.

best

Just like yoda said... Stop thinking and Do.
My thinking brought me my troubles.
I could have continued doing things my way or I could sit down, shut up, and try things the way others have tried and found that worked for them.
Stay or go... AA will survive with one less member. You may survive away from AA as well but I know that when I stopped thinking and started listening and just doing... the things we are able to learn from AA saved my butt.

One more AA quote if I may...

Don't leave before your miracle happens.

L Ron Hoover

Slash-
Many thanks there, my friend. That makes me realize that I <AM> an individual. I'll continue to go to meetings so I can enjoy the PEOPLE. I don't NEED to buy into the rest of it. If I can get some good advice from my friends in AA, get some good advice from friends here, get some good advice from the Secular Connections forum, I'll use what works for <ME>, even if I upset some people along the way.


LRH

L Ron Hoover

Best-
Thanks to you too. But I still don't understand what that means. I <do> learn some things in AA, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time, gas, and money going to meetings. I simply can't see what this talk about 'character defects' and 'self-will' has to do with not drinking. I drank because I liked to get drunk. Plain and simple. It was fun. It's not fun anymore. I don't see how making amends to a girl I dumped rather inconsiderately 20 years ago will help me stay sober today.

slash

I guess I had more to say..hahahaha...

I just wanted to say - try to remember that it's about YOUR program. There is no "AA Program" - AA is an organization where alcoholics have the opportunity to create their own recovery programs. A lot of folks might argue with that -- but even the big book doesn't say you need a sponsor. It doesn't say you have to work the 12 steps to be sober. You can be a valuable asset to AA and have a brilliant recovery program without either of these things. This is just an example. But as cliche as it may be...I like that "Don't leave before the miracle happens" and if you think about it -- the prerqusites to that miracle are sobriety and honesty and you will never find anyone who has experienced the miracle without those...you will however find those who have experienced the miracle without a sponsor...or without daily meeting attendance. This is NOT an AA bash -- I personally dig AA. I am just trying to help you clear up some misconceptions that could potentially cost you a great experience..maybe that experience awaits you in the rooms of AA -- maybe not. OK..I will shut up...for now ;-)

Taking5

I am an AA guy, but AA is not for everybody. It says as much in the big book. I encourage you to seek serenty and sobriety your way.

If you explore other options and stay sober, my hat is off to you. If you explore other options and come back worse than ever, AA will welcome you with open arms.

Good luck and let us know how you are doing.

slash

WOOOHOOO!!! - Good for you, brother. No one is more important than you.....(except me...but that's MY life!)

best

From my understanding of life and the things I have learned.... neither one of those things help me stay sober but they sure do help me sleep better at night.
As for making amends from the past... A clear conscious makes my baggage lighter.
Learning what my character defects are helps me grow into a better person and makes it so in the future I will have less amends to make.
Walking about thinking...if only....
Well if I can clear my thoughts of such time wasted thinking... I can open my mind to do other things that wll help me enjoy life much fuller.

Amends to the girl from 20 years ago... I ran into one of those girls about a month ago. An amend will be given but an amend has been given already. I changed my ways and paid forward to never repeat such things again. Some amends are delivered and some are paid forward. As God allows me the opportunity is how I would make such a choice. 35 years later and I run across a girl that I literally ran into 35 years ago? Some things happen for a reason.

L Ron Hoover

Best-
Thanks again!
I have one last question before I hit the hay.

Exactly who or what determines which part of my personality is defective?

best

Me and My God do it for me.

Search me oh Lord and if there is anything not to Your liking...show me it and help me grow past it.


At days end...look over your day and see what you like and don't like. Seek to change the things you don't like and increase the things you do.

L Ron Hoover

Best-
Just took a real close look at your signature. Do you really have a god who likes to watch you suffer just to get closer to him? Like Job?

Rowan

I thought you were looking for help - is it necessary to provoke others who are trying to do so? If you don't agree with something that is said, why don't you just leave it be and move on. That was very unkind.

best

When silver is put to the fire, the impurities become removed.

I serve a God that loves me so much that He will help me grow as He guides me to what is best for me rather then just give me what I want.
If God always gave me what I want...well I am sure I would be dead by now or so drunk at this moment. Yes I am grateful that hard times came into my life....they opened my eyes to see that alcohol was not a good choice for me.

Every day I hope that God continues to give me what I need rather then what I want.

1_day@_a_time

Consider the following:

Step One: Page 21 of the 12 & 12 starts with – “We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.” Both the Big Book and the 12 & 12 talk about the word admit. Question: Can I admit complete defeat? Step One is the only step of the twelve that has a dash in the step. This may seem to be a little thing. However, prior to the dash, Bill Wilson is talking about alcohol (the chemical). After the dash, and for the remaining 12 steps, alcohol (as a word), is not mentioned again in the steps. Bill Wilson, from the dash on, is directing the recovering person to the condition of their lives (the “old character” that had to drink verses the “new character” that is learning to live without alcohol or drugs one day at a time). The fundamental position that we must remain clean and sober is the cornerstone of recovery. However, that position is by no means the entire goal of recovery!


Step Two: “Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to Sanity.” Sanity can be defined as soundness of mind.

On page 21 of the 12 & 12 it states: “It is truly awful to admit that, glass in hand (compulsion or obsession), we have warped our mind…..” God is Intelligence itself and His Intelligence can and will replace our warped mind or thinking if we ask Him to. The same God that created an intelligent universe will make a major difference in your life if you ask God to work in and through your mind providing you cooperate with Him. God is Intelligence and He works with and through us as a Loving Father would. Step by Step, God provides all of the resources we need to come into alignment and attunement with His Intelligence. God’s Intelligence is patient and kind ever assisting us to the highest plane, where we can be with Him.

Principles - Spiritual in Nature. On page 15 of the 12 & 12 you will find the mission statement of Alcoholics Anonymous: “A.A.’s Twelve Steps are a group of Principles, spiritual in their nature, which, if practiced as a way of life, can expel the obsession (to drink) and enable the sufferer to become happily and usefully whole.”

Tom

barb dwyer

huh. Interesting thread.

I'm gonna go back and read more, but one thing I'd like to put out here ...

just my own perspective ...

I don't WANT any illusions any more.
My illusions ... or the flimsy quality of ...
kept me drinking.

AA is not a church.
It's also not a governmental office where people have to pretend to be perfect.
Where they profess to be 'good' until they're found out otherwise.

In fact, it's the opposite.

Here's something I've heard said over and over.
You're not powerless over alcohol?
Set yourelf a substantial time that you're not going to drink or use.
Then see what happens.

We had a guy came in the rooms one time.
He said straight out he wasn't an alcoholic ..
he just failed his UATest ..
and his job was requiring him to come to meetings.

I said, huh. Well, that's good you're not one of us. But I'd like to present something for you to take home and think about. One or the primary requirements of your job is explicit that you not drink or use for a given amount of time ...
You're sitting in here, with a paper to be signed ... obviously ....
you couldn't meet that criterion.
So, powerful as you may be ...
you might want to go home and comtemplate why it is that something that doesn't control you ... is now about to cost you your job.
And why you drank anyway, even if it was gonig to cost you an apparently well paying job.

Then give us a call when you figure it out.
We're happy to help out.

Of course getting the crap knocked out of my illusions always pisses me off for a while ... but I'm all the better for not having them.

barb dwyer

nobody ...
and I mean NO BODY ...
winds up in AA because their lives are going great,
or because they can control their drinking.