Need4Change

Hi everyone

I realize that I could have posted this in the Christian/religious forum but I wanted to get a broader range of opinions rather than from a specific group.

My father is a Baptist minister and is aware of my alcoholism and has been very supportive of me. Others in my family are also alcoholics so he understands and can relate to what others (including myself) go through with this disease.

Anyway, the other day my father shared with me the story of a rock star who was very heavy into the whole sex/drugs/alcohol scene for many years. Then my father goes on to say that this guy realized that he wasn't really a "victim" and that he had control over his sin (ie; "alcoholism") and so he confessed it as a sin and never drank another drop after that.

I guess I'm just wondering if other alcoholics here see themselves as "victims" or consider alcoholism a sin that they could control if they really wanted to.

Before you answer, please understand that my father and I are fundamentally and philosophically very different people and that we don't always agree so the purpose of my question(s) here is not to debase alcoholics in any way but to simply solicit an unbiased, unvarnished and neutral OUTSIDE opinion of those things which my father says and believes.

Thank you very much, Need4Change

BaldHeadedJohn

I don't believe alcoholism, itself, is a sin. It is an illness. One that I developed over time, and one which I eventually could not fully control. Though not a Christian myself, I believe some things that we DO while intoxicated would be considered sins by some. Alcoholism did not make me drive drunk, did not make me get thrown out of my home, etc. I myself did those things, because at the time I did not realize I had an illness. Once I come to grips with the fact that I am sick, and then fail to get help for it, lines begin to get a little fuzzy.

It is not a crime to be hungry, but it is a crime to steal food. If someone offers you a job so you do not have to steal, and if you fail to take the job (in other words, do your part to recover), then you play a greater part in suffering.

It's a complicated judgement call. I myself tend swing both ways on the subject. The man who hurts his wife in a drunken rage. I can understand the loss of control, but I certainly cannot condone it.

It's a good topic. I look forward to reading others repsonses.

Thanks!

BHJ

Anna

Alcoholism is not a sin or a character defect.

It's a disease.

Astro

I don't feel I was a victim to alcoholism, but I was definitely a volunteer. For 43 years God gave me the power of choice, my choice was to use alcohol for 27 of those years. There were plenty of chances to stop, many warning signs that I ignored, God carried me through those years and never left my side.

I also don't consider alcoholism a sin, but I definitely committed a few sins while under the influence. My actions, not the disease, were the cause.

Khrobin

makes ya really think. I never thought of it as a disease...I always thought of it as a choice...so I guess its a sin. But then again, I learned so far that adictive personalities is almost what I would consider a disease, or a character flaw...adiction is a health issue, so I guess in that aspect its what people would call a "disease". But it all starts with choice. I think its both.

Jersey Nonny

Since I accept the disease concept, how could I possibly consider alcoholism a sin? Would I confess to having cancer, tb, or even a sexually transmitted disease a sin?

As a practicing Catholic, there were a lot of sins I had to confess as a result of my active alcoholism. I once included in my session with the priest, "I think I may be drinking too much." My penance made no mention of trying to cut down on the drinking. The next time I saw that priest serving at Mass, I took a really good look at him and thought, "OMG...he looks like he drinks too much."

Yes, when I started drinking at the age of 16, and for about 30 years thereafter, I had a choice...and, I chose to drink. However, the last two years of my drinking were compulsive and obsessive...once I picked up a drink, I couldn't stop until the money ran out or I was passed out. The only choice left to me was to quit somehow, and fortunately I was introduced to AA.

NEEDTOBESOBER

Alcoholism is a disease not a sin. I was raised and stil am Catholic. i believe things you do after you have been drinking might be considered a sin, such as prostitution, getting into fights, or killing someone cause you were driving drunk , things you might do like stealing, having affairs on your spouse. But alcoholism alone is a disease and believe for the people trying to get help that god has a part in it as long as you have faith in god!

NEEDTOBESOBER

Also if you are Catholic now they have wine you take a small sip of when you go to communion, and also Jesus drank wine although I don't think in the old days they probably didnt think of drinking a lot as alcoholism. They were not awware of it yet, at least that is my opinion.

Jersey Nonny

I used to attend a retreat for women in AA...it was held in a Catholic retreat house by priests who were recovering alcoholics. I once asked a priest how they were able to partake of the wine when serving Mass. He told me it was because to them it was no longer wine once it had been turned into the blood of Christ, and their faith allowed them to drink it without being afraid of jeopardizing their sobriety.

I guess my faith just isn't that strong...I have never shared in that part of the communion service.

nan07

Hmmm. I don't see myself as a victim, and I don't believe that addiction is a disease, nor a "sin" that would cause one to be swept into an eternal lake of fire...but then, I'm an atheist and don't believe that any loving being would create such a horrid place. I don't think there can be a "one size fits all" approach to drinkers. For me, it's a choice, pure and simple. If my gf was keeping wine coolers in the fridge, I would not touch them because they are not my drink of choice. So, I feel that this is a fairly controllable obsession on my part. However, I have read about drinkers over in the family and friends section of this site who, when unable to locate actual booze, will swig down mouthwash or nyquil. For them, I would say the obsession is very high and perhaps not that controllable. So for them, perhaps not so much of a choice.

best

What is a sin? Who sins? How are sins judged?
Those are the questions I would ask your dad.

When I didn't know the law (God's word) I didn't know I was in sin in many areas of my life. Alcoholism in my opinion is not a sin. The things I did along the way that led me to find that I am an alcoholic were sinful. Alcoholism is a end result that I found out about because of my sinful actions.

As a Christian and understanding God's word... For me to drink I would see it as a sin but no matter what I see it as or what others see it as or don't see it as... the answer to the problem remains the same. The solution that the man in your dad's story follows the same way as well.

I have a problem (call it sin, a disease, condition..what ever)
I can't control the problem of my own abilities.
Help!
Those are the first 3 steps found in recovery from any situation in life.
For a Christian we realize a condition as a problem in our life.
We change what we can and for the things that we can't we ask the Lord for His strength. Help!
For a Christian, even the areas we can change and control... it is still a good idea to ask of the Lord for His guidance and help as well. Why work hard when you can work smart? His yoke is light for us. He takes the heavy end on all things.

I stopped my intake of alcohol a long time before becoming a Christian.
What my becoming a Christian did for my life... the areas of moral problems that were my nature and I could not change... that is where the Lord brought change in me. He changed my heart and my actions followed the change.

best

The strength of the wine that was used was not the same as what we can buy today.
The sin of drinking to much of the strong wine was known about and not condoned.
They were aware that to much wine was not good and for a person to take in to much wine would have been looked upon as a character defect not a condition that would be seen and called alcoholism.

teej

deleting my post. I dont want to get into this convo.

shockozulu

Also, according to Canon Law, the body and blood of Jesus Christ are present in both the bread and wine. That is why for many years the congregation did not partake of the wine, they do not need to as they are both the body and blood.

I pass on the wine, I believe I did partake on my First Communion but I don't like the taste and I want my union with Jesus to be a pleasant experience.

Jersey Nonny

Alcoholism is "an equal opportunity disease". It afflicts everyone mentally, physically, and spiritually...that includes Christians, Jews, Muslims, and all other denominations. And, the treatment is the same for all...total abstinence.

Even though the original topic spoke of alcoholism as a sin, perhaps it would be best if we not digress with references to specific religions.

St_Kurt

This is a really interesting topic and I like the answers that separate the sin of what one does when they drink too much from the disease of addiction to alcohol. I also agree that it is an "equal opportunity disease" that affects: doctors, lawyers, janitors, priests, rabbis, blacks, whites, asians, Christians, Jews, Muslims, heterosexuals, homosexuals, and everybody else not aforementioned.

We have a "beginner's meeting" with pre-defined leads that go around every six weeks. One of those leads is on "Alcoholism as a Disease Concept" and I have given it several times now. What I like about giving this particular lead is that it is about phisiological differences already present in an alcoholic's liver and brain chemistry before they ever take a drink. This to me, more than anything, demonstrates the dichotomoy between the disease and what the alcoholic does with the disease.

All the things that can be defined as "sin" by religion or "law breaking" by secular society are not done by the alcohol or the disease, they are done by the person under the influence of the alcohol and the disease.

There's a Bill W. quote from "As Bill Sees it" that I use that I think sums up the drinker's responsibility to their disease perfectly:
~SK

Jfanagle

Sin by the definitions that I have read, in fact just finished reading Webster's definition, is plainly said "violation of religious or God's laws."

Assuming that God as you define him/her/it, wants us to live happy productive and meaningful lives then any actions that we take which keep us from fulfilling that purpose are technically sins. That said, it isn't whether or not the act of drinking to the excess that I was in my practicing days is a sin or not that concerns me, but what to do about it.

Now that we have gone round the Mulberry bush, I end up in the same place. Sin or not, what to do about my problem or is it a disease? Am I sick or just crazy, or lazy, or defective? Thank goodness that by total abstinence and changing my life behavior through AA and thinking more about others than myself I am living a much "better life" therefore less "sinful" or not if my being a selfish drunk isn't a sin.

All this makes my head hurt.

So just for today I am going to not drink, be good to others and keep coming back to the meetings NO MATTER WHAT!!

No offense intended to anyone, but my pea brain can barely handle the ONE DAY AT A TIME thought let alone the cosmic WHAT IF and what is it? Alcoholism is deadly and if I had kept it up, or go back to drinking I can get the answer on “IS IT A SIN?” in person.

NOMOMERLOTMAMMA

Um I'm not really sure, but to me my alcoholism isn't a sin. If I believed in sin, then the way I treated others around me while I was drinking was the sin. I'm spiritual, not religious I guess.I try to live my life a peacefully as possible.. I do feel that I had a spiritual experience that made me able to continue on my path to sobriety.

But I agree with the last poster...this peabrain can't really wrap itself around this concept either lol.

I'm sure I'll find out in the end, whether my belief system was the right one, but for now I'm keeping it simple!

cmc

Need4,
I agree with the quote from the BB listed above by St. Kurt. As a Christian it is not a sin for _me_ to have a drink, jmho. For an alcoholic person I would say...if they are so inclined as to believe in the term 'sin'..that it's that first drink that would be a sin as that is something a person _does_ have a choice about. Everything and anything that occurs due to that decision is sin as well. People have different ideas as to what a sin is. For me it is something that God forbids and includes anything that is harmful to myself or others.
There are many references to drunkenness in the Old Testament and the New...with only a few that mention drinking in a positive light. All the rest give a pretty fair description of what it's like.
If being an alcoholic or addict means a person is a sinner- in my book- the bible...pun intended it makes no difference since according to scripture we _all_ are sinners.
Having a disease like alcoholism is hard enough without religious people adding shame and blame on those who suffer with it. That type of thinking is hypocritical and not pertaining to true Christianity.

Need4Change

I'm actually amazed at how many responses this topic has generated as well as the overall interest in the whole sin/disease debate. In a way, it kind of makes me envious of my father for being able to broach such an interesting subject when, as a "drunk", I consider it a blessing just to be able to wake up in the morning and greet my room mate with a Neanderthal-like grunt acknowledging the new morning. I could never think of such an interesting subject on my own so back to my "sinning"...well...at least I spent 2 hours and 45 minutes at an AA meeting for the first time in ages the other day.

- Need4Change