Does everyone need a support group?
same planet...different world
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Butte, America
Posts: 10,946
Personally - I absolutely had to have the love and support shown me in AA.
David, I found your posts to be quite insightful, I know you'll find what you're looking for.
David, I found your posts to be quite insightful, I know you'll find what you're looking for.
Administrator
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Dancing in the Light
Posts: 61,509
David, basically it means an alcoholic who stops drinking and does nothing else. It is at that point that the journey begins. We need to take a hard look at ourselves, at who we really are, and begin to move forward in life.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
From Wiki:
dry drunk
Dry drunk is a term used, often disparagingly, by members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and by substance abuse counselors who subscribe to the AA theory of alcoholism to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking but whose thought processes are considered to continue to be distorted by the thought patterns of addiction.
Not yet "sober"
This person is not thought to be truly sober, and thus, a distinction is made in AA between being dry, or abstinent from alcohol consumption, and being sober, or living a life of abstinence based on the principles of AA. In AA, sobriety is a state that can only be obtained by both abstaining from alcohol and working the twelve steps of AA, and alcoholism is believed to be a disease state that exists independently of actual alcohol consumption [citation needed] (alcoholism continuing to exist independent of actual alcohol consumption is disputed by some in the substance abuse field).
AA's 12 step program
Although dry drunk is not a medical diagnosis, the phrase is used by members of AA to describe a group of symptoms which they believe come about as a result of not following the twelve steps. The steps include the inventory and confession of character defects and wrongs as well as prayer and communion with the Higher Power, which may be, but is not necessarily God (or a divine being of some kind).[1] It is believed in AA groups that a person who quits drinking without embracing the tenets of AA as the means to quit drinking will experience many unpleasant feelings and exhibit maladaptive behaviors. These feelings are said to include despair, anger, rage, depression of mood or clinical depression, and anxiety and are expressed in behavior stemming from those types of feelings. This dry drunk state is thought to lead, virtually without exception, to the resumption of an even more intensive and harmful drinking spree.
Alternatives to the AA strategy
Other methodologies exist in regards to alcholism, including health strategies different from AA, such as Rational Recovery.
Joan Mathews Larson, Ph.D author of the book "Seven Weeks to Sobriety" believes that the clinical manifestation of the symptoms described by AA as "Dry Drunk" or "Dry Drunk Syndrome" are, instead, an alcoholism-related form of the blood-sugar disorder hypoglycemia (See: [1] )
Notes
1. ^ Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A.'s Twelve Steps.
See also
* Alcoholism
* Alcoholics Anonymous
* Al-Anon
* Substance abuse
* Rational Recovery
* Teetotalism
* hypoglycemia
External links
* Dry Drunk Syndrome Minnesota Recovery Pages
* Dry Drunk definition at About.com
* orange-papers.org/orange-drydrunk.html
Dry drunk is a term used, often disparagingly, by members of Alcoholics Anonymous (AA) and by substance abuse counselors who subscribe to the AA theory of alcoholism to describe the recovering alcoholic who is no longer drinking but whose thought processes are considered to continue to be distorted by the thought patterns of addiction.
Not yet "sober"
This person is not thought to be truly sober, and thus, a distinction is made in AA between being dry, or abstinent from alcohol consumption, and being sober, or living a life of abstinence based on the principles of AA. In AA, sobriety is a state that can only be obtained by both abstaining from alcohol and working the twelve steps of AA, and alcoholism is believed to be a disease state that exists independently of actual alcohol consumption [citation needed] (alcoholism continuing to exist independent of actual alcohol consumption is disputed by some in the substance abuse field).
AA's 12 step program
Although dry drunk is not a medical diagnosis, the phrase is used by members of AA to describe a group of symptoms which they believe come about as a result of not following the twelve steps. The steps include the inventory and confession of character defects and wrongs as well as prayer and communion with the Higher Power, which may be, but is not necessarily God (or a divine being of some kind).[1] It is believed in AA groups that a person who quits drinking without embracing the tenets of AA as the means to quit drinking will experience many unpleasant feelings and exhibit maladaptive behaviors. These feelings are said to include despair, anger, rage, depression of mood or clinical depression, and anxiety and are expressed in behavior stemming from those types of feelings. This dry drunk state is thought to lead, virtually without exception, to the resumption of an even more intensive and harmful drinking spree.
Alternatives to the AA strategy
Other methodologies exist in regards to alcholism, including health strategies different from AA, such as Rational Recovery.
Joan Mathews Larson, Ph.D author of the book "Seven Weeks to Sobriety" believes that the clinical manifestation of the symptoms described by AA as "Dry Drunk" or "Dry Drunk Syndrome" are, instead, an alcoholism-related form of the blood-sugar disorder hypoglycemia (See: [1] )
Notes
1. ^ Alcoholics Anonymous. A.A.'s Twelve Steps.
See also
* Alcoholism
* Alcoholics Anonymous
* Al-Anon
* Substance abuse
* Rational Recovery
* Teetotalism
* hypoglycemia
External links
* Dry Drunk Syndrome Minnesota Recovery Pages
* Dry Drunk definition at About.com
* orange-papers.org/orange-drydrunk.html
Member
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Northland
Posts: 34
Hi David, Congrats on day 11, day 27 for me, no AA, just the support of this forum. I'm reading, meditating, exercising and generally taking good care of myself and that keeps me on an even keel. I made it through the holiday with a houseful of guests and many bottles of alcohol being imbibed with none of my usual anxiety or irritation. But I've also promised myself that if the going gets tough, I'll go to AA. Keep an open mind and stay strong.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Westchester, NY
Posts: 8
I do understand the viewpoint that people need to change their lifestyle in order to change their addictive habits. It makes a lot of sense to me.
What I don't get are labels. Please do not misunderstand me, I understand we as humans label things all the time to make sense of the world. I get a bit hung up in more complex situations like the topic of addiction. To me, it does not feel right to label aspects of something this complex. There are so many factors involved and differences in people. Conversly, people are similar at the very core so I understand that we can label certain aspects across groups of people and be somewhat accurate.
Perhaps, I was misunderstanding both wii and raerob's comments above. I think they were using the term "dry drunk" to describe my attitude or beginner questions regarding the need for a support group. Maybe not - might be just my perception. I understand why they would do so if they were indeed doing it. They have some across many people making crazy claims of being able to stay sober only to fall. The mind recognizes patterns. They are real. Their personal experiences, along with many others, have proven the self reliance theory wrong. They do not however represent 100% of the population and this is my point. There are extremes on both ends of the mean - not to intellectualize this too much
This is not the first time I have either heard that view or read about others experiences trying to over categorize people. As I said, this is comfortable to humans. As I a writing this, I realize that perhaps the answer lies within ourselves. People ultimately know themselves the best - or do they when they have an addictive condition like alcoholism? Here in lies the big question... Are those that try to do this without the support of the AA program fooling themselves? Is their addicition fooliing them? Again, I think this depends upon the person.
I have read this forum over the past few days and see many common themes. The usual response to recovery without AA support is why do it alone? That is a good question. Some support is very important and many supplement this online support with face-to-face. Again, very important I am sure for everyone - who supports you is the question. I have a good support system through my wife and friends - they have not experienced what I am, but support me actively non the less.
The other theme I see is that people assume that since someone does not want to join an AA or other face-to-face support group that this indicates some fear of social situations which may be true especially for people who are in later stages of the illness. They may have retreated to isolation. Others, like myself, do not have this concern. I love people. I simply do not feel comfortable with the face-to-face AA support system that has a requirement that you must admit you are powerless - the term powerlessness is not in my vocabulary. I feel like I have a choice to not take the first drink. This to me is powerful, not powerless. I would be powerless after the first drink - I don't want to take the chance so will not start. Does this viewpoint make me a "dry drunk"? I am not sure yet. I do know that it puts me in the minority. Does being in the minority put my sobriety at risk? I hope not. I do know that I constantly need to be on the watch for that... actively, nondefensively and humbly. I am appreciate other viewpoints as this will help evolve my thinking and actions. This to me feels like I am on the right track in recovery.
David.
What I don't get are labels. Please do not misunderstand me, I understand we as humans label things all the time to make sense of the world. I get a bit hung up in more complex situations like the topic of addiction. To me, it does not feel right to label aspects of something this complex. There are so many factors involved and differences in people. Conversly, people are similar at the very core so I understand that we can label certain aspects across groups of people and be somewhat accurate.
Perhaps, I was misunderstanding both wii and raerob's comments above. I think they were using the term "dry drunk" to describe my attitude or beginner questions regarding the need for a support group. Maybe not - might be just my perception. I understand why they would do so if they were indeed doing it. They have some across many people making crazy claims of being able to stay sober only to fall. The mind recognizes patterns. They are real. Their personal experiences, along with many others, have proven the self reliance theory wrong. They do not however represent 100% of the population and this is my point. There are extremes on both ends of the mean - not to intellectualize this too much
This is not the first time I have either heard that view or read about others experiences trying to over categorize people. As I said, this is comfortable to humans. As I a writing this, I realize that perhaps the answer lies within ourselves. People ultimately know themselves the best - or do they when they have an addictive condition like alcoholism? Here in lies the big question... Are those that try to do this without the support of the AA program fooling themselves? Is their addicition fooliing them? Again, I think this depends upon the person.
I have read this forum over the past few days and see many common themes. The usual response to recovery without AA support is why do it alone? That is a good question. Some support is very important and many supplement this online support with face-to-face. Again, very important I am sure for everyone - who supports you is the question. I have a good support system through my wife and friends - they have not experienced what I am, but support me actively non the less.
The other theme I see is that people assume that since someone does not want to join an AA or other face-to-face support group that this indicates some fear of social situations which may be true especially for people who are in later stages of the illness. They may have retreated to isolation. Others, like myself, do not have this concern. I love people. I simply do not feel comfortable with the face-to-face AA support system that has a requirement that you must admit you are powerless - the term powerlessness is not in my vocabulary. I feel like I have a choice to not take the first drink. This to me is powerful, not powerless. I would be powerless after the first drink - I don't want to take the chance so will not start. Does this viewpoint make me a "dry drunk"? I am not sure yet. I do know that it puts me in the minority. Does being in the minority put my sobriety at risk? I hope not. I do know that I constantly need to be on the watch for that... actively, nondefensively and humbly. I am appreciate other viewpoints as this will help evolve my thinking and actions. This to me feels like I am on the right track in recovery.
David.
Knucklehead
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Davenport, WA
Posts: 4,005
A SeaBird Living LandLocked
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Smack Dab Right in the Middle of the U.S.A.
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by DavidV13
Perhaps, I was misunderstanding both wii and raerob's comments above. I think they were using the term "dry drunk" to describe my attitude or beginner questions regarding the need for a support group. Maybe not - might be just my perception. I understand why they would do so if they were indeed doing it. They have some across many people making crazy claims of being able to stay sober only to fall. The mind recognizes patterns. They are real. Their personal experiences, along with many others, have proven the self reliance theory wrong. They do not however represent 100% of the population and this is my point. There are extremes on both ends of the mean - not to intellectualize this too much
This is not the first time I have either heard that view or read about others experiences trying to over categorize people. As I said, this is comfortable to humans. As I a writing this, I realize that perhaps the answer lies within ourselves. People ultimately know themselves the best - or do they when they have an addictive condition like alcoholism? Here in lies the big question... Are those that try to do this without the support of the AA program fooling themselves? Is their addicition fooliing them? Again, I think this depends upon the person.
I have read this forum over the past few days and see many common themes. The usual response to recovery without AA support is why do it alone? That is a good question. Some support is very important and many supplement this online support with face-to-face. Again, very important I am sure for everyone - who supports you is the question. I have a good support system through my wife and friends - they have not experienced what I am, but support me actively non the less.
The other theme I see is that people assume that since someone does not want to join an AA or other face-to-face support group that this indicates some fear of social situations which may be true especially for people who are in later stages of the illness. They may have retreated to isolation. Others, like myself, do not have this concern. I love people. I simply do not feel comfortable with the face-to-face AA support system that has a requirement that you must admit you are powerless - the term powerlessness is not in my vocabulary. I feel like I have a choice to not take the first drink. This to me is powerful, not powerless. I would be powerless after the first drink - I don't want to take the chance so will not start. Does this viewpoint make me a "dry drunk"? I am not sure yet. I do know that it puts me in the minority. Does being in the minority put my sobriety at risk? I hope not. I do know that I constantly need to be on the watch for that... actively, nondefensively and humbly. I am appreciate other viewpoints as this will help evolve my thinking and actions. This to me feels like I am on the right track in recovery.
David.
A Dry Drunk is when someone's thinking is So screwed up it's like they are Drunk when they are Dry. I've had many people in my life where were Dry Drunks and just as with Wet Drunks, you can't reason with them. Probably why I isolated.
Yes, we do have to be constantly Vigilant where our Sobriety is concerned.
A SeaBird Living LandLocked
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Smack Dab Right in the Middle of the U.S.A.
Posts: 238
Originally Posted by hopeless1974
i like what you said i need help so much.dont know what to do.any adivce i would like.not sure just how the site works.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 39
Hi David, I'm new here, but from the other side of the coin...my man died recently due to alcoholism. We'd had 3 very happy (I thought) years together. He kept it quiet, sought no or little help, and simply went into a coma and died.
The point is, if he'd at least sought help, maybe he would have had a chance of beating this terrible disease. What have you got to lose? Yes, you may feel very uncomfortable at meetings, but so what. Surely it's worth giving it a go, aren't you worth that, of course you are. You sound like a decent guy who's trying to hold it all together and get sorted.
Doesn't 'anything go' if it means recovery?
The point is, if he'd at least sought help, maybe he would have had a chance of beating this terrible disease. What have you got to lose? Yes, you may feel very uncomfortable at meetings, but so what. Surely it's worth giving it a go, aren't you worth that, of course you are. You sound like a decent guy who's trying to hold it all together and get sorted.
Doesn't 'anything go' if it means recovery?
A SeaBird Living LandLocked
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Smack Dab Right in the Middle of the U.S.A.
Posts: 238
That reminds me of something. People I've known in the past 15 or 20 years who were much younger than I am and we actively drinking are DEAD now. 
I am in shock when I hear of someone else I knew who died from drinking.
I am in shock when I hear of someone else I knew who died from drinking.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 39
Yes Wii, such shock. I can't get over it, I'm hurting so very much. So sad and lost at mo. It's only since I discovered this site that I've started to learn about alcoholism, and how many damned ordinary decent people are effected by it, it seems it can get a hold of anyone before they realise it.
I didn't realise how many people die of alcoholism, doesn't matter how intelligent, kind, rich you are does it. It can kill any human being who is unlucky enough to be enticed into its web.
I've also such respect for those drinkers who become alcoholics - so many trying to recover, god love them, it must be hell. You couldn't know the hurt it causes, not just to yourselves (and by God you are all worth more than that) but also to your loved ones.
Keep trying all of you. One dry day has to be a day of hope.
I didn't realise how many people die of alcoholism, doesn't matter how intelligent, kind, rich you are does it. It can kill any human being who is unlucky enough to be enticed into its web.
I've also such respect for those drinkers who become alcoholics - so many trying to recover, god love them, it must be hell. You couldn't know the hurt it causes, not just to yourselves (and by God you are all worth more than that) but also to your loved ones.
Keep trying all of you. One dry day has to be a day of hope.
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Alberta, Canada
Posts: 363
Hi David.
I do not believe in "dry drunk" and fervantly wish this insulting phrase did not come up so frequently in the newcomer forum.
Doorknob gave you a link to the secular connection forum, where there are some very good posts. The alcoholism forum also contains some very good info.
It's great to hear you've got support from family and friends, that means so much. I hope you find what you need here.
Ron
I do not believe in "dry drunk" and fervantly wish this insulting phrase did not come up so frequently in the newcomer forum.
Doorknob gave you a link to the secular connection forum, where there are some very good posts. The alcoholism forum also contains some very good info.
It's great to hear you've got support from family and friends, that means so much. I hope you find what you need here.
Ron
Cruelty-Free
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Body: South Florida Heart: Yosemite National Park
Posts: 914
Here's why I believe in the "dry drunk" concept:
As I understand it, alcoholism/addiction is a disease and drinking/using is merely a symptom. For me, it not so important what a person is putting in their body, but why... and why they won't stop despite negative consequences. Y'know, like repeatedly touching the hot stove despite always getting burned...?
Taking away the substance(s)-of-choice is only the beginning. If nothing is changed, improved upon or recovered from in the areas of emotions and behaviors, then the only thing that really changes is that these substances are gone. Or, more simply, nothing changes if nothing changes.
As they say, if you remove the booze from a drunken horse thief, now you've simply got a horse thief minus alcohol. Better keep that barn locked.
I don't find "dry drunk" to be an insulting phrase, just one that is accurate in some cases.
As I understand it, alcoholism/addiction is a disease and drinking/using is merely a symptom. For me, it not so important what a person is putting in their body, but why... and why they won't stop despite negative consequences. Y'know, like repeatedly touching the hot stove despite always getting burned...?
Taking away the substance(s)-of-choice is only the beginning. If nothing is changed, improved upon or recovered from in the areas of emotions and behaviors, then the only thing that really changes is that these substances are gone. Or, more simply, nothing changes if nothing changes.
As they say, if you remove the booze from a drunken horse thief, now you've simply got a horse thief minus alcohol. Better keep that barn locked.
I don't find "dry drunk" to be an insulting phrase, just one that is accurate in some cases.
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