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Court Ordered NA

Old 08-17-2009, 01:26 PM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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We love to hunt ducks here in Mississippi.

In doing so we like to use the saying.."we have gone through a lot of trouble getting those duck to come into our water hole....lets make sure none of them leave"

So as for the newcomer...we have done a lot of work keeping the doors open, building a fellowship, fighting internal and external forces, developing lit. ect...lets make darn sure our behavior does not cause them to run away from us to the arms of active addicition.

JC
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:31 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Ok. I got it.

It appears that no one on this thread has ever met on oldtimer that was a decent person.


I am beginning to see the problem.

I guess I had my head in the sand.

If I had never met an oldtimer who was nice, I suppose I would feel the same way.

What I hear you saying is rather shocking to me.

These oldtimers threaten murder, unemployed, angry and selfish is not a pretty picture.
I think I'm living in a bubble. I never reakized what you guys actually thought of us oldtimers. I guess from now on I'll quit bringing up thorney issues and just agree with the guys with three years. I just never really saw myself as being that bad.

Wow. And I go every night and constantly do stuff for the fellowship and people struggling. Thursday I'm having the doors and muffler welded up on a Newcommers Tracker by my sponsee for no charge. I'll skip him a hundred later on but will not humiliate the Tracker owner by doing it in front of him. I constantly buy soda and water for meetings, etc. But now I see that is not it. I must agree with the new people. Ok, let's try it your way. I'll listen at meetings for the next ninety and see what i pick up.

Thank you all for this wake up call.

I really believed I was on track in following the ttraditions, but even there I was wrong.

I've started three noncourtslip signing meetings but they are soon changed to courtsigning so every single meeting in our city is courtsigning.

So I should have recognized the trend from that.

Thanks for the wake up call.

I'm blown away.

Tsar
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Old 08-17-2009, 05:40 PM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Tsar, my best and most trusted guides in the rooms are "oldtimers" -- folks with 15, 20, 30 years of recovery under their belts. They just don't seem to be carrying around the level of bitterness I hear in you. I'll keep you in my prayers. Just a suggestion from the girl still wet behind the ears -- I'd inventory this resentment before it eats you alive.

Peace & Love,
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:17 PM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tsar7 View Post
Evidence of the softer easier way presents itself in the one half of one percent of courtslippers getting clean for good.
1/2 of 1% is also 1 out of 200, or 2 out of 400, or 50 out of 10,000!!! That is a lot of people!!!
50 souls who are now clean and sober and productive members of society....think of the impact 50 people can have on the world!! Be it husbands, mothers, daugthers, brothers, sisters, mentors, hospital workers, cashiers, painters, factory workers, clergy, employees, employers, THAT IS HUGE!

I praise my higher power I am that 1/2 of 1%! I am a wife, a mother to 2 amazing boys, a daycare provider, and I spread the message of hope and recovery to other hurting women all over Central WI.....

All because a judge in San Diego, CA sent me to court appointed NA and AA meetings after a DUI years ago.....
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Old 08-17-2009, 06:50 PM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Tsar,
Sadly, you are proving the point of people who are saying that a lot of old-timers are bitter and hostile to new folks.

I'm sorry that you are feeling so bitter. Newcomers and old-timers can have a lot of offer each other. Unfortunately, I haven't got much experience with old-timers helping me in the rooms. There is only one woman in my area with more than 20 who still goes to meetings. She is only sponsoring those people with more than about 10 years, understandably, as there is nobody else to sponsor them. There are about 5 women with more than 10 years in my area, so she takes care of them. She is my great-grandsponsor, She is in most of the womens' sponsorship families in this area, and she has done a lot for the program, but I haven't seen too many other old-timers willing to help new people.

Around here, they mostly keep to themselves. They even have their own special meetings and step studies at homes, to which you must be invited. My bf gets to some of them, as he's been around 8 years and has been invited.

KJ
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:40 PM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by kj3880 View Post
Here's one idea, for what it's worth: let them get the slip signed at the door signifying that they came to the meeting. Then they have what some of them came for. After they get the signature, we could invite them in, lovingly and without any pressure. If they wanted to, they could then come to a meeting of their own free will, as the court slip has already been signed. I don't want anyone there that isn't at least mildly curious to find out about getting clean.
Ahhh, wisdom beyond your years young one.

I always liked that idea, some want to keep them hostage with the excuse "maybe they'll hear something that will save their life."

My opinion is that if they are there against their will they probably wouldn't hear anything anyway. And even MORE important is that those who do not want what we have to offer often detract from those who are there for it. I.e., the addict present who is seeking recovery looses out.

So, I personally sign them as soon as possible, laying them out on the table easily accessible for their holders to pick and run. Saves us coffee that way too.

Next, no, I do not hold with those that think court cards are a "violation" in reference to our traditions. There is a vast difference between cooperation and affiliation. Hence signing and returning them as soon as you get them doesn't make me an agent of the government to enforce their imprisonment for an hour or so.

I've heard of meeting "signers" being subpoenaed. However I believe case law has been established that does not allow any judge to infringe upon the anonymity of the signer by calling him to testify, citing the overall good of the fellowship outweighs the needs of the courts in these instances.

Shite, the meeting I chaired this afternoon had nearly 20 cards. Yeah, they can be distracting, undisciplined, and all… yet who am I to judge – I’m there to serve.

a
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Old 08-17-2009, 08:44 PM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Tonight was my night number one of just listening. I'm going for ninety days of holding silence in an effort to see where I have lost my way in NA.

The main thrust was that relapses can be a good thing. In fact, everyone that shared said their relapse was the best thing that ever happened to them as it strengthened their program.

Over half of those sharing expressed anger at oldtimers for various reasons.

You hear more when you know you are not going to share.
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Old 08-17-2009, 10:42 PM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tsar7 View Post
Ok. I got it.

It appears that no one on this thread has ever met on oldtimer that was a decent person....These oldtimers threaten murder, unemployed, angry and selfish is not a pretty picture.

Tsar
I'm on this thread and I sure hope you didn't get that impression from anything I shared - because it isn't true.

Every since I joined SR I've been sharing about my gratitude and love for the "dinosaurs" in NA. My current sponsor has 23 years. I have a sponsee with 24 years. My first sponsor will celebrate 18 years in two weeks. One of my best friends is an AA oldtimer with 24 years sober. I could keep going...but my point is that ALL OF THEM are "decent people." To the newcomer who just celebrated 6 months...I'm a oldtimer in their eyes, and I've never heard anyone describe me the way you say oldtimers are described.

On the other hand, I will not say that ALL oldtimers are decent people - nor will I say all "anytimers" are a certain way. I try not to do stereotypes, but I don't shy away from sharing my ES&H about situations with members - regardless of their clean time. And no...it's not a pretty picture when any of us act out. And although it may not be right, those of us who have some time in recovery are often held to a higher standard because we are expected to know better. We can tell the newcomer not to place us on a pedestal all day, and they'll do it anyway. So when that handful or select few of oldtimers act inappropriately, their behavior stands out in the minds of those who look to them for guidance. I refuse to let what a few people say about their experiences with oldtimers paint a picture for me...I have my own experiences to go by.

If becoming a "Yes Man" is going to make you feel better...go right ahead. But I doubt it because you wouldn't be being true to self. There's a big difference between allowing others to be wrong and cosigning wrong.
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Old 08-18-2009, 06:28 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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There is tremendous pressure on me to cave in. Right now I'm switching to Kansas City meetings where no one will know me. I'll just listen and they will assume I have a month clean, I'll park the new Mercedes down the street and wear my gardening slacks and shoes. I'll do it for 90 days and just listen. If asked when I got clean I'll just say 7:00 am.

I'm willing to change my thoughts on the traditions, but show me where I've been wrong in the basic text.

I've been going to a Kansas City meeting every Sunday morning for 14 months. All the faces have turned over in that time except for one. So that might not be the place for getting advice on changing my program around overnight.

But I will listen harder to those with multiple weeks of clean time on the proper way to work ones program. I'm listening, not talking for ninety.

But as they say "There is no fool like an old fool".
And from the feedback I get her I am an old fool and I must objectively take a look at that. As was said "The words of the profits are written on the subway walls".
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Old 08-18-2009, 07:50 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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WOW.....what happened to 'keep it simple'....why is it 'them and us', 'old and new'....aren't we all in the room for the same purpose?

How about not talking about what we do for others or what we have, and just being open to what we can learn...........I know when I do that, not only am I happier but I am less judgemental and I have more to offer.
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Old 08-18-2009, 08:58 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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I pray to my HP that when I reach 27 years of clean time, that I don’t have to go undercover and make 90 meetings in 90 days to prove a point.

The skies are not falling, you know?
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:22 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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That's the problem. We are not on the room for the same purpose. Some of us are there fighting for our lived and some are trying to stay out of prison. It's hard to bear your soul when they are laughing at you for being a chump.

I was a hippy. The government had big plans for me on Viet Nam. I was living in San Francisco when Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young said "Time to get down to it, soldiers are cutting us down, should have been done long ago."

See, I was crusing along fine in NA and then the new people said "You will change your beliefs to conform with ours or we will demonize you".

But I had seen their ideas tried before with devistating consequences. I had no choice but to keep doing what I had been taught to do.

Put yourself in my shoes. I go to get my colonoscopy and it's supposed to be on the natch and I get there and now it's going to be non-narcotic and they have an anisteologust there and upon further quizzing the non-narcotic is demarol and Valium. So I get up to leave.

It's all I know. I've had it drilled into my head.

Yet I mention the above episode and the hyienas jump on me.

You guys are killin me, your killin me.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:38 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Who is to say who's purpose is what? I have seen SEVERAL people come in court ordered and hear the message and keep coming back on their own.....it is not for me to judge.

See, I was crusing along fine in NA and then the new people said "You will change your beliefs to conform with ours or we will demonize you".
Demonize???? wow....just keep doing what you are doing. What they think is none of your business.

Say what you want at meetings, if you dont like a meeting go to another.....keep it simple. Share what was shared with you.

Remember..........bless them, change me.
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Old 08-18-2009, 10:48 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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It's hard to bear your soul when they are laughing at you for being a chump.
I know some of us are sicker than others, but when does self-acceptance kick in? I've learned that recovery involves me getting to a point where "my living problems are reduced to a level of comfort." At least the Basic Text tells me that.

No one can tell me to change my beliefs, but open-mimdedness will allow me to take a look at them.

It's all I know. I've had it drilled into my head.
The Basic Text also tells us that the information we received came from misinformed people. This occurs before and during recovery. That's why being open is so important. It also says what we know about the truth is subject to revision. This is a program of learning, and once I close my mind and become unteachable...my process stops.

Just a thought.
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Old 08-18-2009, 01:08 PM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Well said, Paulie and Gmoney!
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Old 08-18-2009, 04:06 PM
  # 56 (permalink)  
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I am a meeting starter. Every six months I would hand off my meeting and go find a place and start a new meeting. I did very well at this. I had the skill set to put on a suit, go get a place and go for months if necessary by myself till people began to show up and I didn't cling on to it.

Then the court people began showing up. I would be uncomfortable about the affiliation issue. Also, the slip was worded such that under penalty of perjury I swore that the people were in attendance at the meeting.

Some wanted to get their slip signed and leave. But to me, that was not attending the meeting, it was just poping in for a signature. I was perjuring myself at every meeting. So I tried not handing them out till the end of the meeting. Besides being physically threatened a lot, I felt I was holding people hostage. It was supposed to be attraction rather than promotion.

Finally I simply couldn't look myself in the mirror any more.

So I began starting non-courtslip signing meetings. But after a few weeks about 20 people would start showing up and vote it a court slip signing meeting and continue to show up to enforce it.

Finally I simply quit starting new meetings.

I felt that I had to believe as the new people did or I could not serve.

I went back to area only to find they had had enough of me. They voted into the guidelines that each and every meeting on the area would be courtslip signing.

When I pointed out that each meeting was autonomous, they all began screaming "Principles before personalities".

Now, in case anybody out there is looking to learn something, here is a true gem. I learned this from almost three decades of intensive service work. If you go to say, area, and you have some idea like, why don't we bring a cooler of sodas to area and sell them for 50 cents or you say, "why don't we have a picnic/speaker meeting in the park" or "Why don't we have an assistant chair and let them preside over part of the meeting a few times just to get your feet wet". Then if people begin screaming "Principles before personalities", this means they have no real argument against it and all they can cone up with is screaming "Principles before personalities" at you.

If this happens, you probably have thought up a great idea. You have probably really hit pay dirt. So just when they try to shut you down, you need to really nurture that great idea you had.

Of course they could be saying you are self willing things but usually in that case they say "you are selfwilling things".

So there I was. In order to continue to start
meetings, I must change my beliefs of twenty years to their beliefs with no real convincing on their part. I had years and years and years clean when they first showed up and now they were informing me that I knew nothing of the basics of NA.

And, to rub a little salt in the wound, just to remind me that now there was a new sherriff in town, I was embarrassingly absent from any speaker pannels or history of NA speaker events. I was the bitter oldtimer who was out to kill courtslippers.

So what to do? Well, I went back to my early teachings. My first sponsor said "Just burn up meetings if in doubt." I bought a new Q45 with a sunroof and a kickass stereo and started driving. I went to meetings from Reno to Monterey.

My second sponsor said "If you are having trouble, get a new sponsee". Of course no o e in the fellowship would ever ask as I was the newcommer killer.

But I had been going to H and I in a mental institution and I got a sponsee there who did not know that I was a bad person out to kill addicts. He and I became buddies.

And that is enough of my story,
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Old 08-18-2009, 11:14 PM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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I don't know, Tsar7...since I have much less clean time than you do, you may not consider anything I have to say. And I don't say that as a put-down, but just as a general observation because you seem to not see much value in the input of those "under" you in NA. It just may be that the views I'll share with you have already been considered and you've simply dismissed them. As they say, a new idea cannot be grafted onto a closed mind. I could be wrong, but here goes anyway (again):

You keep talking about affiliation. Tell me, who is affiliated with who? NA is not an extension of the government or law enforcement. From what I understand, it never was and still isn't. And as I mentioned previously, it isn't the courts that come to our meetings seeking signatures to verify anything. So, in all actuality, our only real affiliation is with the addict, member or potential addict that comes into our meetings with the court slip.

Then the court people began showing up. I would be uncomfortable about the affiliation issue. Also, the slip was worded such that under penalty of perjury I swore that the people were in attendance at the meeting.
There are a few things about the above statement that raise an eyebrow. First is the prejudice against those "court people." And I use the word prejudice because you've already revealed in this thread that you believe anyone referred or recommended to NA by law enforcement is doomed to failure. I'm easily reminded of how oldtimers in my area talk about the days when crackheads (like me) began coming to the rooms of NA. They thought NA was doomed to be over-run by cocaine addicts talking about "smokin" drugs. Never happened. Doesn't our 3rd Tradition tell us that the strength of any member's desire is not necessarily connected to any outside circumstance? Doesn't the 3rd Tradition also tell us that none of us can judge who will stay to recover or return to active addiction?

"Our motives for coming to NA aren't particularly important...We come to NA for many reasons, but we stay to recover when we find and keep the desire to stop using."

And did you notice that I used the words "referred or recommended?" What I believe you and many others tend to overlook is that no one can be "sentenced" or forced to attend an NA meeting (as far as I know). Those who find themselves involved with the criminal justice system are given the "option" of seeking treatment or help with their drug problem because they've admitted to having one (to the courts). When faced with receiving a longer sentence without going to meetings or getting a shorter one by going to meetings...isn't it a no-brainer that they'd choose to go and provide proof that they went?

Oh yeah...as far as the "attendance" thing goes. I've never read a court slip that stated:

"By signing this document you hearby swear that the person stayed at the meeting for the duration of the meeting."

Maybe in your state it's different. But where I'm from, I can put my initials, a nickname or even a make believe name on the slip and no one will ever know the difference. I think I've already shared that the courts aren't the only entity the requests their "clients" provide documentation of their meeting attendance. Rehabs, outpatient facilities, halfway houses (Salvation Army, Catholic Family Center, Volunteers of America, etc...)...you name it! So do we discriminate because court slips reveal some sort of criminal activity? Who are we to judge? How many of us in NA committed crimes and just never got caught? Maybe that's why your opponents are screaming, "principles before personalities!!" eh?

I know my post is long, but bear with me because this is probably the last I'll share with you on this subject.

You talk about how the entire area saw the issue opposite from you, so much so, that they included signing court slips into the guidelines. What that tells me is that the conscience of your area has spoken, and I'm inclined to believe that there are numerous other oldtimers in your area that agreed with that decision. That says a lot. If I were you, I'd have to ask myself, "Is everybody else wrong...or is it me?" I'll close with this:

"We must exist in the world. It's not possible to be entirely separate; evading all contact with outside agencies. Not only is it impossible, it is not a good idea. Cooperation with others is healthy for Narcotics Anonymous. Contacts between our groups and the public help others understand NA better. They help increase public goodwill toward NA. They lead doctors, teachers, police, friends, and relatives to recommend NA to addicts who want recovery. They help us carry the message to addicts who can't get to regular meetings. Letting others know who we are and what we offer increases the chance that addicts seeking recovery will hear our message." ~ IWH&W, Tradition 6

Maybe that Q45 or new Benz might be an attraction for a court slipper or two. LOL!!

I'm done.
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:36 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Gmoney View Post
You talk about how the entire area saw the issue opposite from you, so much so, that they included signing court slips into the guidelines. What that tells me is that the conscience of your area has spoken, and I'm inclined to believe that there are numerous other oldtimers in your area that agreed with that decision. That says a lot. If I were you, I'd have to ask myself, "Is everybody else wrong...or is it me?"
Ok, I'm with ya on how if one person tells ya you got body odor, eh... you can take it or leave it. But when a whole room tells ya you stink, then it might be time to consider a shower. I.E. the group has spoken.

However, on the other hand, if it is as he says, the area DOES NOT set policy for the groups. That is completely bass-ackwards. It's the groups that set policy for the area - period! So I don't know, the story may have gotten muddied down, or I've read stuff wrong, but if this area was trying to sell me on an up righted pyramid I'd kind of stir some shite too.

a
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Old 08-19-2009, 12:55 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by andyaddict View Post
Ok, I'm with ya on how if one person tells ya you got body odor, eh... you can take it or leave it. But when a whole room tells ya you stink, then it might be time to consider a shower. I.E. the group has spoken.

However, on the other hand, if it is as he says, the area DOES NOT set policy for the groups. That is completely bass-ackwards. It's the groups that set policy for the area - period! So I don't know, the story may have gotten muddied down, or I've read stuff wrong, but if this area was trying to sell me on an up righted pyramid I'd kind of stir some shite too.

a
I'm with you, Andy. But, although specifics weren't given, I'm willing to stick my neck out here and conclude that "the area" in deed was the groups setting the policy. I can't speak for others, but when I talk about "the area" I'm talking about the groups having a group conscience on the issue and sending their representative (the GSR) to the ASC, and all the group's GSR's voting on a motion or bylaw...ultimately concluding with a "area conscience" - not a handful of elected servants who think they're running the show.

I think the whole room is telling Tsar7 he stinks. LOL!!
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Old 08-19-2009, 04:48 AM
  # 60 (permalink)  
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Night two of holding silence. I went to a Kansas City meeting. Parked the new Mercedes two blocks away and wore shabby clothes.

The meeting was about "In times of illenss".

The discussion gravitated to antidepressants. I was one of the few people not on them. But there was a kid there who was thinking about it. At the smoke break he and I chatted and went for coffee.

He has three weeks and his counselor is pushing hard for him to take something. While I didn't reveal my years clean I told him I didn't take anything. He was quite intrigued, having never met a non-antidepressant addict in recovery.

He and I are having dinner before tomorrow nights meeting, on my nickle, at Red Lobster. I take all the crisp ones to Red Lobster. Something about seafood makes for bonding.

Apparently he wandered into a county detox, started going to group and got a counselor. The counselor is convinced that all addicts need antidepressants to get clean. But he says he really doesn't feel all that depressed, outside of losing his job and girl over drugs.

But they really don't want him to keep comming around if he doesn't get with the "Treatment Plan".

So that was last nights meeting.
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