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Narcissistic Therapist…need advice!

Old 03-14-2014, 06:37 AM
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Narcissistic Therapist…need advice!

It wasn't until meeting with a new therapist yesterday that I realized that the therapist I had been seeing for 7 months was re-traumatizing me. I was going to pm a member here who is in mental healthcare (I believe), but decided to post in case it might help someone else. It just so happened that my old therapist responded to an email yesterday that I had sent her, and I finally felt like I had some clarity about the dynamics.

Let me begin by saying that I worked with an excellent therapist for almost a decade. We took intermittent breaks, and she retired a few years ago, but as time goes on the more I appreciate the work I did with her. My life improved substantially, mostly because she helped me understand that having a voice and an opinion was a part of me that needed to be honored, and she helped me learn that life is often grey, not so black and white.

Last summer I called an addiction specialist, I found her online, she had good credentials, had worked for years at a very well known rehab facility. I was self directed in seeking help, and she encouraged me to go inpatient across the country. I did and I had a good experience.

I wish the story ended there. When I returned I began seeing her twice a week. I shared here that she pressured me to hire a sober coach, at over $5,000 a month as well, even though I was doing well and not white knuckling it, and i was seeing the psychiatrist she had recommended once a week as well. I met with him a handful of times but I hated it, and he never sent me a bill although I did email and ask for at least a partial. They were friends, it was like she enjoyed moving people around like pawns.

The prescribing psychiatrist she had me sign a release so they could talk, (they were friends too) in fact, I was always signing releases…….that should have been a red flag.

She had moved to my area recently, it is an affluent town, and it was hard not to notice that she was very aware of this fact. She talked about herself……constantly. I know her childhood, her college, her grad school, her grades, her marriage, her step children, what her house looks like, what her office costs, what her husband does, how they met, where they were married, how old her cat is……..and that is the brief version. Typing this I feel like an idiot.

Worst of all, she referenced other clients and their problems often in our sessions, there was a strong element of her being in the captain's chair. I knew that the person ahead of me was learning disabled, that she saw a "famous person" who had been photographed going into an AA meeting (this woman had the session in front of me the next week, lovely, now I feel guilty for knowing she is in AA). The amount of self reference was nauseating. I mentioned one day that I was hurt because my husband had said something jokingly about my recent weight, she told me that naked in bed that morning her husband had told her he loved her curves (she is newly married for the first time at age 55)….

I mentioned here that she was always distracted, looking at her phone, she took and made calls, not often but…She ate breakfast, jumped up and down constantly to open windows, shut windows, turn AC on, off, saying "hot flash". The plumber came in during one session to get on his hands and knees and look at the radiator…..

Her comments about other patients reflected the fact that she saw us all as her minions. She called me "dear", I am only a bit younger than her. In retrospect I think she entertained the thought that she was a Gertrude Stein like figure hosting some sort of a salon with all of us circling around her. I mentioned to her one day that her attention to her phone during our sessions bothered me, she told me that the phone was a trigger for me. While I was in the midst of trying to impart this information to her (it is very difficult for me to stand up for myself with other women) she grabs her pocket book and starts fishing around saying "keep going, I am looking for aspirin, I have a headache". And when I expressed strongly one day that AA was very complicated for me because of my childhood experiences and my mother, she got upset that I was voicing my opinion, and said "whoa, whoa, whoa", like how dare you have a voice.

She called the p-doc who is also close in age, and there was a cattiness around it, she would mention it like they had a secret, it felt like high school. After my discussion with her about the phone calls and my feeling about it, she told me she had called the other woman about it, when I asked if she had talked about my frustration with phone calls during our sessions she said "maybe", in an annoying catty singsong voice.

Sorry so long, but I need to put this all down. i realized I was starting to get depressed, and I dreaded our sessions. Being newly sober I was tentative about trusting my judgement. I felt like she was competitive with me.. but I couldn't put my finger on what was bothering me. Until yesterday, after a one hour session with a therapist who actually listened, I realized she is a bloody narcissist. Her patients are just extensions of her ego.

Now the problem. I knew there would be backlash after I left her. I called her the first week in January and explained that I would be taking a break, I left it on voicemail. I didn't hear back from her, so I emailed her. Two days later she replied (she had always replied the same day), saying she was busy, would I come in for a termination session, or asking for a critique. I just wanted out so I sent an email after singing her praises told her that I guess my only issue was that I had felt that she had diminished me having a voice the day I got upset about childhood trauma because my mother used AA in a punitive way against me (this is not about AA, but rather about my experience because of my mother, NPD).

Of course she came back with a rebuttal. Whatever. The problem is getting a bill from her. She has been paid in full, but I need a bill to submit to insurance. Total game playing. I have emailed her 3 times since, and sent a letter with my last check (which was cashed Feb 4). Yesterday I requested the bill and she emailed me "I am on my way to Florida for vacation, won't be back until 24th, blah blah blah." The clincher "you know I don't do this for money"….She has something that I need and she is lording it over me, and it is pissing me off. "I didn't bring my records with me on vacation…"

I know, I am being punished for walking away. Here is my question, do I let it go and just wait, especially now that I have realized what she is, or do I send another email? What bothers me most is that she was starting to do real damage to me, I was starting to lose faith in my own perceptions, I worry for others who have not had experience with a good therapist like I had a few years ago. I believe she is trying to punish me, and play power games…no different than reaching for her pocketbook and rifling through it when I was expressing difficult emotions. Her dismissiveness and telling me it was my issue when I twice tried to suggest that I was frustrated was a throwback to my mother, it had me questioning my own validity.

Sorry so long….part of me feels like I should just ignore her and wait for the bill, another part of me feels like I should stand up to her. But I know, she will turn it around to me being newly sober and the fact that I am being overly sensitive.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:54 AM
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lol..jaynie you have similar experiences then I do. I had a shrink years ago that actually gave me talk therapy too. i realized about 3 months into in that I was the therapist and he was the patient. This guy was chairman at a prominent hospital in North Jersey. you couldn't fit the guys head through the door.

When somebody says "i don't do this for the money" I either think liar phony or complete moron.

she might be telling a half truth..she might be also doing it for the power.

maybe the dynamic of you being a sucessfull woman with intelligent opinions is too much for her to take. It seems that way. I would say she has no business being a therapist.

my shrink used to bash clients constantly to me. He even pointed out a guy who was a professor at my school..belittled him...he also constantly wanted to ask if I got laid and he would open his draw and tell me i could have some viagra or other goodies if i want. I was 24.

he was a gem
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:06 AM
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I am mad at myself for not seeing it sooner. I knew a lot of boundaries were being transgressed, but there was an element that she was sharing secrets with me. I think all the name dropping, and then calling herself down to earth was confusing. And I think I stayed so long because I had getting sober all wrapped up with seeing her.

I didn't bring my old therapist up often because I could tell it threatened her. Hello, we were both engaged in making sure she looked like top dog. The day the Elizabeth Vargas news came out I mentioned I had lived in her building in the city, she almost jumped out of her chair to say I know her too….(that wasn't her "famous" client).

I almost feel like telling her I am working with an excellent new therapist…but I am afraid her head might explode..!
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:46 AM
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Since she has already been paid-in-full, she is of course required to send you proper documentation confirming the zero balance of the account since you have requested proof for insurance purposes. Not to worry, you'll receive your papers I'm sure. There is no upside for her to refuse. Sooner or later she'll comply with your request. Since her performance as a therapist is questionable, I'm not surprised she is continuing to underperform her responsibilities. Your story here reads as very problematic with her and her associates. Sorry you had those experiences in therapy.

I suggest your feeling of waiting for her is the way to go with all this mess. Let it go for a couple of weeks after her return from vacation so as to receive your receipts. You paid by cheque, so she is on the hook if it comes down to proof of payment. My understanding of your resources is this is not about a need for immediate insurance payout but more how you're continuing to feel angst over your situation with her as your former therapist. Unfortunately, therapists are not always as helpful as one may want in times of urgent need, and the only remedy for bad therapy is to let it go, learn what can be learned, and seek a better outcome elsewhere. The whole situation doesn't seem to rise into the realm of legalities, as I think you already know.

I'm interested in asking how did that $5000 sober coach work out? You said you were already going well at the time, or have I misunderstood, and you did not contract with the coach? Just interested in the quality received for the dollars spent if you wanted to comment.

I hope your feeling better about it all now since after posting. Take care of you.
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Old 03-14-2014, 07:49 AM
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hey jaynie..are you looking to hire a sober coach? I have competitive rates
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Old 03-14-2014, 08:19 AM
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Cabo….

Robby, the sober coach was a nice guy. She encouraged me to meet with him in an effort to try to facilitate me going to meetings. He had been on Wall St too, a young guy, but he had gone to work with an interventionist and had been sober 5 years. He came to my house a few times, and we met once at a cafe to go over his contract. He was a genuine and kind person who I believe really demonstrated the serenity AA can bring to people.

I am not sure I really buy the sober coach concept. I can see perhaps in the event of an intervention if someone is completely new to recovery. But I had already been to rehab and more than know my way around the rooms. I feel like if you need such intensive hand holding then something you are doing isn't working. I wasn't hanging by a thread and since my recovery was initiated by me the only one I was accountable to was me, so it didn't make sense.

My hunch is that she is trying to throw her weight around in the recovery community here, since she has only been here a short time. I was naive in not understanding that this industry is big bucks, the rehab she recommended me to she had been given an award at. I think there is a lot of quid pro quo. In retrospect the dynamics are a lot clearer, it saddens me that many people seeking help are in vulnerable states and can be taken advantage of.

I do feel better after writing it down, thank you for reading, I think it broke some of what I felt like was my collusion in what was occurring. I am going to let it go…...
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Old 03-14-2014, 01:46 PM
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Yes, something for something is business as usual in the recovery industry generally speaking. Its not something that is going to change much and so buyer beware is sage advice. Unfortunately people in urgent need don't usually have a lot of objectivity at hand, as we know from personal experience ourselves, and so the reality is people often enough don't receive even adequate therapy.

A good therapist always ensures the outcome is at least favorably well balanced with respect to the wants and needs for the client. If this can't be ensured, the therapist is under responsibility to come to better terms with the client. If such terms can't be mutually re-worked, then the essential relationship is unworkable, and any continuance thereafter is obviously not therapeutic. When the therapist drops the ball, its way difficult for the client to pickup and get things sorted. All to often, and your former therapist is a case in point, the therapist goes into defense mode and things go south fairly quick thereafter even though the appointments may continue for a hellishly long time. How very unfortunate.

I hope you continue to feel better as you review your experiences. It looks to me you've managed to get past your initial anger, get well pass any lingering ambivalent resentments, and move on as a better person. Bravo!
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Old 03-14-2014, 02:03 PM
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I've been in somewhat of a similar situation, though not quite so hurtful as what you've described. The last therapist I saw didn't seem to understand I had no interest in a career change. This made me feel unheard, disrespected, and not taken seriously. But I am not sure those were her intentions. I doubt they were. Most people do not take writers seriously anyway, so I'm used to that sort of treatment.

My suggestion is just to walk away from it and do not look back. Don't give her any more of your energy.
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SoberJennie View Post
My suggestion is just to walk away from it and do not look back. Don't give her any more of your energy.
Ditto that...if it were me, would be out the door. She sounds very unwell, not to mention exploitative. And even if she isn't, you're not getting what you need, and you're the one paying.

Wasn't it Father Martin (can't find any reference tho') who once said that those who choose to help others in a professional capacity, can be the sickest of the sick? The outcome of the help on offer then depends on whether wisdom and so, genuine helpfulness, arises from that insight....or not. This woman sounds like a not!!

Good for you that your intuition kicked in. Keep being good to yourself
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:59 AM
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Hi friend - see I'm seeing this from a different perspective.

I think why this is getting under your craw so much is because you have been abused by her in the same way you went to her for help. You said confrontation with females unnerves you. For good reasons (narcissism, mother issues, etc). She holds a position of authority and you became subjected to her whims.

I'm a big believer in that we draw to us, the kind of experiences that aid in our true healing and wholing. Yes , you could absolutely let it go and continue forward. Or , you may want to recognize the similarities with the reasoning behind why you even had to start therapy in the first place ?

You have mentioned being thought of as "too nice". And how this perceived niceness has failed you in your search for real healing. What this ding dong is doing is flat out f-ing wrong. She has a responsibility and a code of ethics to uphold at the very least.

I say, give her hell.
Find the voice you have been seeking your whole life.

If not now, when ?

And, I for one, think YOU would be the best of therapists. That's my take, and I'm owning it.

XO AO
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Old 03-15-2014, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by alphaomega View Post
What this ding dong is doing is flat out f-ing wrong. She has a responsibility and a code of ethics to uphold at the very least.

I say, give her hell.
Find the voice you have been seeking your whole life.

If not now, when ?
Giving hell to an accomplished therapist is almost always a useless effort, and rarely brings satisfaction. How would the therapist resolve these issues without admitting to professional failure? There is no upside to venting with a therapist who already isn't listening anyways. Therapists, good and bad both, are well trained to re-direct and ensure their own personal boundaries are not breached by clients. Since no legal recourse exists, and no moral standards professional or otherwise are being recognised by the therapist to the clients satisfaction, its doubtful that bringing hellfire will change the circumstances anytime soon. Bad therapists don't suddenly make good because they are being handed their ass. They just move on to their next client, unfortunately.

I worked in the therapy business long enough to know that just like there are clients who don't really want real change in their lives, there are therapists who will happily work with those same clients. Clients who do want real change would consider such therapists as unprofessional ie bad at what they do. Clients who don't want reality served up, they consider such therapists as very professional ie good. It would seem Jaynie and her former therapist were mismatched on so many levels.

I think Jaynie did find her voice by ridding herself of some bad therapy, and sharing her success with walking away from it, and moving on with establishing her new lifestyle advancements.

Just want you to know I'm not knocking against what your sharing ((AO)) I do agree we need to find our voices when we are being unrecognised and troubled, but in this case I just don't see any merit in bringing the fight to the therapist.
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Old 03-15-2014, 10:25 AM
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It sounds like she IS in it for the money, and a very manipulative, selfish person. Doesn't she have an administrative person or service that takes care of billing? It is absolutely unacceptable that she is not giving you your documentation/receipt. Maybe it would help if your insurance company gave her a call.
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Old 03-16-2014, 10:50 AM
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Consumer complaint sites , tell the world !


Ripoff Report | Scams, reviews, complaints, lawsuits and frauds. File a report, post your review. Consumers educating consumers. , Yelp , Citysearch ...
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Old 03-16-2014, 10:52 AM
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:37 PM
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get a new therapist???
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Old 03-16-2014, 03:54 PM
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Social workers and clinical psychologists are licensed. I am not sure which she is, but sending a letter detailing her breaches (alluding to other clients, withholding receipt after you decline to have a closure session, etc.), would sit in her file and be reviewed when her license is up for renewal.

It is not as exciting as a confrontation, but it would help protect others in the future.
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:04 PM
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Not all clients complaints are auto reviewed simply because they sit in the therapists file. There must be some transgression which meets the Boards level of interest re: license renewal. They don't have time or inclination to review unsubstantiated complaints or opinions.

Nothing apparently happened which can be substantiated as having merit to cause a Board of Inquiry to authorise a review of a possible complaint. In my opinion, and experience, such a letter sitting in the therapists file will not protect any future clients. All such complaints must be substantiated before they can possibly have merit.
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:56 PM
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I have some direct knowledge and I can assure you that such letters are all reviewed because they might contain something that bears on license renewal. Most do not, but the reviewers cannot predict if it will or not until the letter is read. It is true though that the matters that impact license renewal are usually not the ones the patient considers most important. Letters by their nature cannot include substantiation of most of these matters. That only happens through later investigation.

Also, I should make clear, licensing boards do not jump because they get one letter. They have to depend on number of reports raising the same issue. One's report is supported by other reports from other clients. (e.g. One report of a HIPA violation may not mean much and would probably not merit investigation., but if multiple patients report similar violations, it will have get attention.)

So while it is not as if a letter will result in a license revocation, records of complaints do matter. While there is little that can be done about a manipulative therapist, such therapists usually also do other things (like withholding receipts) that can be used to put them under greater scrutiny.

I had to file a complaint against a social worker at one point and while it took forever for anything to happen and what was done was not as severe as I would have hoped, his actions are on the record--which is satisfying. And if other patients had not raised the same issues that I did, nothing would have happened at all.
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Old 03-18-2014, 05:53 AM
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Hey Jayne - you have been struggling with this for a while I think. I have been here not to the extent with therapies but I have honestly feel betrayed by my Psychiatrists and Psychologist. I have a good one now and it makes a World of difference.

I would walk away. You are dealing with a sick person that has the ability to trash you legally given the releases you have signed and bring more pain and difficulty to you personally. SO I see no upside even though you are completely in the right here.

I believe many in the mental health area go into this profession due to self interest for their own ailments so I do believe there are many sick therapists and psychiatrists. There are also some very talented ones. Be thankful you have a good one now and minimize the damage of this last one.

I doubt I would listen to the advice I am providing. I would try to sabotage her practice, let other clients know how sick she is, send letters to the Better Business Bureau, HIPP, sign her office number and email up for SPAM on a computer that could not be traced to me, tell friends about how awful she is at social events, etc.

^^This is why I am in therapy to an extent though - I can see how it would make me feel better temporarily but would make things worse in the long run - its bc my ego would be hurt and like a little kid I would want to get even. Don't be like me, be bigger and walk away and write this off as a bad experience.

Your doing great. I consider you a friend and I am honored to see the journey and growth. This person, this witch can only drag you down. The sooner you can just move away and get on with your life the better off I think you will be!
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:50 PM
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Thanks to everyone. I guess part of my struggle (AO alluded to this) is that I tend to "belly up". I find it easier to walk away than rock the boat, at least with women. My old shrink gave me a book about a little French prince who always said "it doesn't matter", she was concerned that I said it doesn't matter too often.

I guess my struggle lies in knowing when I am operating in serenity/let it go mode and when I am avoiding any sort of confrontation. Growing up, any sort of conflict with my mother ended up being a fight to the death. She never, ever backed off a stance, even when she was wrong. That coupled with 12 years of Catholic school, shaped my perception of women as rigid, unyielding and punitive. I learned to say "it doesn't matter" because raising the ire of women who had more power than me never ended well.

My old therapist always challenged me on the way I was interacting with her. I think she saw that I could be pleasing but that it was not always authentic. When she saw me going into that mode she would point it out to me. I think the crappy therapist encouraged the compliant aspect, it elevated her as all knowing, and when I challenged her she became defensive.

The fact that I was slowly able to step back and understand the dynamics with this chick is a step in itself. I don't feel like I want to sabotage her at all. I am just concerned that by walking away from a situation once again I am repeating an old unhealthy behavior of avoidance.

To me the easiest thing is to walk away. Criticizing a narcissist in any way is like talking to a brick wall. I don't respect her and she is not someone that I would like outside of her office either. I guess I still struggle with when to hold em and when to fold em.

Thanks you guys. You all help me more than you know, I am lucky to have cyber met you all!
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