Setting boundaries in a marriage complicated by mental illness
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Join Date: Sep 2009
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Setting boundaries in a marriage complicated by mental illness
Have referenced this so many times, figured I would just put it on here.
This link is an auto download .doc file of the below text. (yeah, that is a PITA, but is how the webpage placed it).
http://search.*****.com/r/_ylt=A0SO8...Boundaries.doc
==============
SETTING BOUNDARIES IN A MARRIAGE COMPLICATED BY MENTAL ILLNESS
KATHY BAYES
In a marriage where one partner is mentally ill ("MIS"), the well spouse ("WS") must aggressively set and enforce boundaries if the family is to survive. Setting boundaries must not be confused with setting limits. Limits are daily struggles to control undesirable behavior, some won, some lost. Boundaries are much more fundamental and are absolutely vital to the survival of the family. The MIS does not have an option to conform to boundaries. They are not negotiable. These boundaries are particularly necessary when the mental illness is chronic, but they are also important in managing an episodic illness like manic depression. We have found that if the WS communicates exactly what his or her expectations are without emotion, the MIS will hear even through the static of illness AND the chaos of psychosis. The WS must believe in these boundaries absolutely and without a shred of doubt. The WS must also communicate undebatable harsh consequences if the boundaries are violated.
Setting and maintaining boundaries actually improves the MIS's sense of security, stability, predictability and order, even though the MIS may not like some of them. Setting boundaries will encourage a more relaxed, nonjudgmental family atmosphere. The need to set boundaries must not be confused with the need for an understanding atmosphere. The Mental Illness must not be allowed to dominate or grossly disrupt the household, spinning it into chaos. If the following boundaries cannot be enforced, then the well spouse must consider alternative care, and consider carefully if the marriage will survive.
THE BOUNDARY OF SAFETY
First, the well spouse must ensure safety for the family. The WS's first responsibility must be to any young children in the family. If the MIS refuses to cooperate with doctors, participate in the treatment program, take medication, and is abusive, the WS will not be able to stay with the MIS. Even though well spouses believe strongly in the sanctity of marriage and in eternal commitment [or they would have been "out of there" a long time ago], the WS's first responsibility must be the children. If the WS doesn't look out for the welfare of the children, then who will?
The WS should not tolerate physical abuse. Whether this behavior is a function of the illness or the person, it must be stopped immediately, Sometimes medication must be adjusted to control anger and violent behavior. This adjustment should be made immediately, or the WS should leave until the danger has passed.
The WS should not tolerate verbal abuse. This behavior is more likely to be a function of the illness, not the person. Regardless, it should be stopped or controlled. The WS certainly must learn not to internalize abuse. The WS must protect young children from verbal abuse.
THE TRUTH BOUNDARY
The Well Spouse must categorically refuse to hide the illness from children, extended family and friends. Only if the MIS is working is there justification for hiding the illness, and then only from work colleagues. Not telling creates enormous isolation. Not telling and talking creates enormous confusion for children. Not telling and talking prevents education. Not telling and talking prevents development of good coping skills. No Family Secrets! No Stigma! This is a biological brain disorder. It is an Illness, like any other.
IDENTITY BOUNDARIES
In the initial experience of mental illness, the WS often is so consumed by trying to fight a battle he or she has little knowledge of that the WS loses his or her identity in the battle. It is like shooting darts in the dark, with no direction, no logic, and little success, but a tremendous gut feeling that something is seriously wrong. Often we hear spouses say, "And I knew if I left him, he would die". They are probably right! When the series of events and experiences is finally given a name, efforts to control its effects can begin to take on direction and become much more successful. After the initial diagnosis, it often seems that everything and everyone revolves around the MIS. The WS must find his or her identity once again, apart from the battle. The WS cannot fix the MIS, and should quit trying. Of course, the WS can help, but he or she must learn to let go and to find himself. Hobbies long abandoned must be rediscovered. Interests must be cultivated, children enjoyed, talents explored and expanded, knowledge exercised. Do nice things for yourself. Find freedom. Demand space. GET A LIFE.
MORAL BOUNDARIES
Mental illness does -- or does not make a person a nice person, worthy of your respect and love. The mentally ill can respect your moral boundaries even in the midst of psychosis if you make them very clear. If the MIS is not willing to respect the WS's value structure, then the marriage may not survive. We do not tolerate violence, dishonesty, street drug use, sexual unfaithfulness, and criminal behavior. The WS must communicate grave consequences for these behaviors. The WS is deeply committed to the sanctity of marriage, and for the MIS to violate this value is profoundly discordant and intolerable to the WS. Often the WS's report that "the MIS never gave me a good excuse to leave" is because the WS's moral boundaries were never violated. That "non-occurrance" was not an accident. Rather, it illustrates commitment by the MIS to the marriage.
MEDICAL SYSTEM BOUNDARIES
The MIS may not want the WS to participate in treatment decisions, but the WS must know what is going on and communicate assertively with the doctors and therapists. The WS is the best person to communicate what is really happening with the MIS to the doctors. The WS must know what the treatment plan and prescribed medications are. The WS must help watch for unwanted side effects and give feedback on the effectiveness of medication. We have found that the WS often must push doctors into trying new medications. The WS simply must be an expert in the treatment of the illness and participate assertively. To not participate leaves the WS too much in the dark. Education obtained through the Journey of Hope is invaluable here.
PRACTICAL BOUNDARIES
The Well Spouse will probably need to take over the practical, day to day responsibilities of the family. These responsibilities may include the following, depending upon the severity of the illness:
1. Making sure the family has a permanent place to live. Often Mentally ill persons will want to move and/or change jobs often, running from the illness and failures to cope. The WS must affirmatively and unequivocally put a stop to this constant moving. If the WS has the finances, he/she should buy a house, put down roots, and deal with reality.
2. Handling the finances. Most mentally ill persons do not handle money well. This may mean withdrawing credit cards from the MIS. This usually means setting up a separate checking account. This means paying all or nearly all of the bills. We have found that even when the WS has tried to share some bill paying responsibility with the MIS, it usually fails. If the WS is a woman who is not working, she MUST get a job.
3. Handling the discipline of the children. The MIS often is very inconsistent and unpredictable in disciplining the children, which creates stress and confusion. The MIS may interpret misbehavior merely because normal childhood behavior is disturbing to him/her. The WS must establish firm guidelines, and aggressively intervene if the MIS is totally out of line. He/she will not like it, but the damage that can be inflicted upon young children can be irreparable. The WS will feel confused about the best way to raise children, and may be susceptible to pressure from the MIS, but the WS must trust his or her instincts. None of us have all the answers, but the WS is more likely to be right. At the same time, children should not be allowed to use Mental Illness in the family as an excuse for disrespect and bad behavior.
4. Taking charge of home maintenance. Many mentally ill persons simply don't see the tasks that need to be done. They also may lack the organizational skills to make a plan to get them done. The MIS may also lack judgment in hiring work done. Of course, the MIS should participate in household chores, but the WS will probably have to organize it.
5. Maintaining the automobiles. The MIS may be oblivious to mechanical difficulties and lack judgment in getting repairs done.
6. Obtaining and maintaining insurance. Often the necessity of insurance is lost on a MIS.
7. Handling family paperwork. The MIS will lose mail, and is probably not capable of doing income tax returns. In our household, my husband refused to even open the mail, even though he is a licensed attorney. He doesn't have a clue as to how I do the income tax.
8. Long range planning. The MIS is barely able to handle today, let alone worry about tomorrow.
9. Maintaining Family Traditions. Often a MIS is stressed by family celebrations. These events are important to the family and the WS should not let the MIS steal them from the family, even if the stress is uncomfortable. The MIS just has to deal with it.
HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES
1. Know yourself and what you can live with. Have confidence in your right to demand conformance to these boundaries. Communicate them unequivocally and unemotionally. Believe in them without reservation.
2. Be prepared to enforce consequences. Often the mere threat of leaving scares the MIS into compliance. The MIS really knows how dependent he or she is and how much he or she needs the WS. That is a powerful tool for gaining compliance, to be used very selectively. Don't feel guilty, these boundaries must be observed if the marriage and the family is to survive. Establishing boundaries is in the best interest of the MIS.
3. Get family support. Don't allow the MIS to "divide and conquer".
Discuss your needs with influential family members. Get them to help.
Discuss your needs with the psychiatrist and therapist, enlisting their help. Get reinforcement and courage from your AMI support group.
This link is an auto download .doc file of the below text. (yeah, that is a PITA, but is how the webpage placed it).
http://search.*****.com/r/_ylt=A0SO8...Boundaries.doc
==============
SETTING BOUNDARIES IN A MARRIAGE COMPLICATED BY MENTAL ILLNESS
KATHY BAYES
In a marriage where one partner is mentally ill ("MIS"), the well spouse ("WS") must aggressively set and enforce boundaries if the family is to survive. Setting boundaries must not be confused with setting limits. Limits are daily struggles to control undesirable behavior, some won, some lost. Boundaries are much more fundamental and are absolutely vital to the survival of the family. The MIS does not have an option to conform to boundaries. They are not negotiable. These boundaries are particularly necessary when the mental illness is chronic, but they are also important in managing an episodic illness like manic depression. We have found that if the WS communicates exactly what his or her expectations are without emotion, the MIS will hear even through the static of illness AND the chaos of psychosis. The WS must believe in these boundaries absolutely and without a shred of doubt. The WS must also communicate undebatable harsh consequences if the boundaries are violated.
Setting and maintaining boundaries actually improves the MIS's sense of security, stability, predictability and order, even though the MIS may not like some of them. Setting boundaries will encourage a more relaxed, nonjudgmental family atmosphere. The need to set boundaries must not be confused with the need for an understanding atmosphere. The Mental Illness must not be allowed to dominate or grossly disrupt the household, spinning it into chaos. If the following boundaries cannot be enforced, then the well spouse must consider alternative care, and consider carefully if the marriage will survive.
THE BOUNDARY OF SAFETY
First, the well spouse must ensure safety for the family. The WS's first responsibility must be to any young children in the family. If the MIS refuses to cooperate with doctors, participate in the treatment program, take medication, and is abusive, the WS will not be able to stay with the MIS. Even though well spouses believe strongly in the sanctity of marriage and in eternal commitment [or they would have been "out of there" a long time ago], the WS's first responsibility must be the children. If the WS doesn't look out for the welfare of the children, then who will?
The WS should not tolerate physical abuse. Whether this behavior is a function of the illness or the person, it must be stopped immediately, Sometimes medication must be adjusted to control anger and violent behavior. This adjustment should be made immediately, or the WS should leave until the danger has passed.
The WS should not tolerate verbal abuse. This behavior is more likely to be a function of the illness, not the person. Regardless, it should be stopped or controlled. The WS certainly must learn not to internalize abuse. The WS must protect young children from verbal abuse.
THE TRUTH BOUNDARY
The Well Spouse must categorically refuse to hide the illness from children, extended family and friends. Only if the MIS is working is there justification for hiding the illness, and then only from work colleagues. Not telling creates enormous isolation. Not telling and talking creates enormous confusion for children. Not telling and talking prevents education. Not telling and talking prevents development of good coping skills. No Family Secrets! No Stigma! This is a biological brain disorder. It is an Illness, like any other.
IDENTITY BOUNDARIES
In the initial experience of mental illness, the WS often is so consumed by trying to fight a battle he or she has little knowledge of that the WS loses his or her identity in the battle. It is like shooting darts in the dark, with no direction, no logic, and little success, but a tremendous gut feeling that something is seriously wrong. Often we hear spouses say, "And I knew if I left him, he would die". They are probably right! When the series of events and experiences is finally given a name, efforts to control its effects can begin to take on direction and become much more successful. After the initial diagnosis, it often seems that everything and everyone revolves around the MIS. The WS must find his or her identity once again, apart from the battle. The WS cannot fix the MIS, and should quit trying. Of course, the WS can help, but he or she must learn to let go and to find himself. Hobbies long abandoned must be rediscovered. Interests must be cultivated, children enjoyed, talents explored and expanded, knowledge exercised. Do nice things for yourself. Find freedom. Demand space. GET A LIFE.
MORAL BOUNDARIES
Mental illness does -- or does not make a person a nice person, worthy of your respect and love. The mentally ill can respect your moral boundaries even in the midst of psychosis if you make them very clear. If the MIS is not willing to respect the WS's value structure, then the marriage may not survive. We do not tolerate violence, dishonesty, street drug use, sexual unfaithfulness, and criminal behavior. The WS must communicate grave consequences for these behaviors. The WS is deeply committed to the sanctity of marriage, and for the MIS to violate this value is profoundly discordant and intolerable to the WS. Often the WS's report that "the MIS never gave me a good excuse to leave" is because the WS's moral boundaries were never violated. That "non-occurrance" was not an accident. Rather, it illustrates commitment by the MIS to the marriage.
MEDICAL SYSTEM BOUNDARIES
The MIS may not want the WS to participate in treatment decisions, but the WS must know what is going on and communicate assertively with the doctors and therapists. The WS is the best person to communicate what is really happening with the MIS to the doctors. The WS must know what the treatment plan and prescribed medications are. The WS must help watch for unwanted side effects and give feedback on the effectiveness of medication. We have found that the WS often must push doctors into trying new medications. The WS simply must be an expert in the treatment of the illness and participate assertively. To not participate leaves the WS too much in the dark. Education obtained through the Journey of Hope is invaluable here.
PRACTICAL BOUNDARIES
The Well Spouse will probably need to take over the practical, day to day responsibilities of the family. These responsibilities may include the following, depending upon the severity of the illness:
1. Making sure the family has a permanent place to live. Often Mentally ill persons will want to move and/or change jobs often, running from the illness and failures to cope. The WS must affirmatively and unequivocally put a stop to this constant moving. If the WS has the finances, he/she should buy a house, put down roots, and deal with reality.
2. Handling the finances. Most mentally ill persons do not handle money well. This may mean withdrawing credit cards from the MIS. This usually means setting up a separate checking account. This means paying all or nearly all of the bills. We have found that even when the WS has tried to share some bill paying responsibility with the MIS, it usually fails. If the WS is a woman who is not working, she MUST get a job.
3. Handling the discipline of the children. The MIS often is very inconsistent and unpredictable in disciplining the children, which creates stress and confusion. The MIS may interpret misbehavior merely because normal childhood behavior is disturbing to him/her. The WS must establish firm guidelines, and aggressively intervene if the MIS is totally out of line. He/she will not like it, but the damage that can be inflicted upon young children can be irreparable. The WS will feel confused about the best way to raise children, and may be susceptible to pressure from the MIS, but the WS must trust his or her instincts. None of us have all the answers, but the WS is more likely to be right. At the same time, children should not be allowed to use Mental Illness in the family as an excuse for disrespect and bad behavior.
4. Taking charge of home maintenance. Many mentally ill persons simply don't see the tasks that need to be done. They also may lack the organizational skills to make a plan to get them done. The MIS may also lack judgment in hiring work done. Of course, the MIS should participate in household chores, but the WS will probably have to organize it.
5. Maintaining the automobiles. The MIS may be oblivious to mechanical difficulties and lack judgment in getting repairs done.
6. Obtaining and maintaining insurance. Often the necessity of insurance is lost on a MIS.
7. Handling family paperwork. The MIS will lose mail, and is probably not capable of doing income tax returns. In our household, my husband refused to even open the mail, even though he is a licensed attorney. He doesn't have a clue as to how I do the income tax.
8. Long range planning. The MIS is barely able to handle today, let alone worry about tomorrow.
9. Maintaining Family Traditions. Often a MIS is stressed by family celebrations. These events are important to the family and the WS should not let the MIS steal them from the family, even if the stress is uncomfortable. The MIS just has to deal with it.
HOW TO SET BOUNDARIES
1. Know yourself and what you can live with. Have confidence in your right to demand conformance to these boundaries. Communicate them unequivocally and unemotionally. Believe in them without reservation.
2. Be prepared to enforce consequences. Often the mere threat of leaving scares the MIS into compliance. The MIS really knows how dependent he or she is and how much he or she needs the WS. That is a powerful tool for gaining compliance, to be used very selectively. Don't feel guilty, these boundaries must be observed if the marriage and the family is to survive. Establishing boundaries is in the best interest of the MIS.
3. Get family support. Don't allow the MIS to "divide and conquer".
Discuss your needs with influential family members. Get them to help.
Discuss your needs with the psychiatrist and therapist, enlisting their help. Get reinforcement and courage from your AMI support group.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
LMAO
I was the MIS and it was the "WS" who was clueless about...paying the bills, sorting the mail, getting car maintenance done, keeping traditions,etc etc etc etc.
There is a great deal of good information and ideas in the above.. IF the WS is well, WELL. Most relationships are a wee bit more complex.
It can be VERY dangerous for the well being and medical care etc to be left in the hands and under the discrimination of the so called WS. Their motives are not always pure. It is not uncommon for them to be abusive (which may have led to them choosing someone mentally unstable as a partner, as they are...as it says above, easily scared into submission by threats to leave...
Very very complex situations. Not easy for anyone. Every case varies. My ex never had a diagnosis of any type of mental illness...but talk to our kids (all grown) and they have their own take on things.
I was the MIS and it was the "WS" who was clueless about...paying the bills, sorting the mail, getting car maintenance done, keeping traditions,etc etc etc etc.
There is a great deal of good information and ideas in the above.. IF the WS is well, WELL. Most relationships are a wee bit more complex.
It can be VERY dangerous for the well being and medical care etc to be left in the hands and under the discrimination of the so called WS. Their motives are not always pure. It is not uncommon for them to be abusive (which may have led to them choosing someone mentally unstable as a partner, as they are...as it says above, easily scared into submission by threats to leave...
Very very complex situations. Not easy for anyone. Every case varies. My ex never had a diagnosis of any type of mental illness...but talk to our kids (all grown) and they have their own take on things.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by Threshold 
LMAO
I was the MIS and it was the "WS" who was clueless about...paying the bills, sorting the mail, getting car maintenance done, keeping traditions,etc etc etc etc.
There is a great deal of good information and ideas in the above.. IF the WS is well, WELL. Most relationships are a wee bit more complex.
It can be VERY dangerous for the well being and medical care etc to be left in the hands and under the discrimination of the so called WS. Their motives are not always pure. It is not uncommon for them to be abusive (which may have led to them choosing someone mentally unstable as a partner, as they are...as it says above, easily scared into submission by threats to leave...
Very very complex situations. Not easy for anyone. Every case varies. My ex never had a diagnosis of any type of mental illness...but talk to our kids (all grown) and they have their own take on things.
I was the MIS and it was the "WS" who was clueless about...paying the bills, sorting the mail, getting car maintenance done, keeping traditions,etc etc etc etc.
There is a great deal of good information and ideas in the above.. IF the WS is well, WELL. Most relationships are a wee bit more complex.
It can be VERY dangerous for the well being and medical care etc to be left in the hands and under the discrimination of the so called WS. Their motives are not always pure. It is not uncommon for them to be abusive (which may have led to them choosing someone mentally unstable as a partner, as they are...as it says above, easily scared into submission by threats to leave...
Very very complex situations. Not easy for anyone. Every case varies. My ex never had a diagnosis of any type of mental illness...but talk to our kids (all grown) and they have their own take on things.
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Some of it has rang true for us.
Especially the Safety, Finances, Place to Live, Tries to "Play" the kids, on and on.
Just take the housing -- after forcing us homeless about a year and a half ago, and back from Rehab a little over a year, our Little A has tried to make us move three times.
You follow this is for a (supposedly
) Well Spouse trying to just keep the boat right-side up? Some of this, you just do not get until you have lived it.
Especially the Safety, Finances, Place to Live, Tries to "Play" the kids, on and on.
Just take the housing -- after forcing us homeless about a year and a half ago, and back from Rehab a little over a year, our Little A has tried to make us move three times.
You follow this is for a (supposedly
) Well Spouse trying to just keep the boat right-side up? Some of this, you just do not get until you have lived it.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 258
Hammer, I watched some of the youtube vids you shared - in the one about the 5faces of bpd they talked about the parent-self constantly punishing the bpd patient, claiming they would not deserve happiness and serenity...
I am sorry and obviously pretty clueless, but to me this list above reads like a to-do list from the parent-self, there is no joy, no trust, no emotional intimacy, but a lot of responsibility and boundary crossing and over-involvement without getting much in return..
Please don't get me wrong, but I really question where are you, where are your needs and your happiness in all this?
I am sorry and obviously pretty clueless, but to me this list above reads like a to-do list from the parent-self, there is no joy, no trust, no emotional intimacy, but a lot of responsibility and boundary crossing and over-involvement without getting much in return..
Please don't get me wrong, but I really question where are you, where are your needs and your happiness in all this?
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
I take it all good. Even when folks tell me I am wrong. Suppose I should especially take correction as a good thing, huh?
I guess since you were asking towards us in particular -- I / *we* do not do or have to do that full list.
For us there is something weird with the house stuff. Like demonic possession weird. I mean REALLY weird. dunno. I have done bits and pieces of my 4th Step Story and my own Alanon "relapse," on here, but I suppose I should do the full story. But on the Crazy-Woman side . . . have you ever heard of "Geographic Cure," sort of (self theory -- by the A or Mentally Ill) where if they could Just Move Now. Or Stay Right Here (from or to wherever) things would just magically be all better?
Folks with problems have actually done it as discussion topics on here. Gave me some insight.
Mrs. Hammer gets hit with THAT one really hard from time-to-time. So now, the kids want stability and to stay in their school, with their friends. So we just sort of back away and let Mrs. Hammer dysregulate about the Geography Stuff.
I guess since you were asking towards us in particular -- I / *we* do not do or have to do that full list.
For us there is something weird with the house stuff. Like demonic possession weird. I mean REALLY weird. dunno. I have done bits and pieces of my 4th Step Story and my own Alanon "relapse," on here, but I suppose I should do the full story. But on the Crazy-Woman side . . . have you ever heard of "Geographic Cure," sort of (self theory -- by the A or Mentally Ill) where if they could Just Move Now. Or Stay Right Here (from or to wherever) things would just magically be all better?
Folks with problems have actually done it as discussion topics on here. Gave me some insight.
Mrs. Hammer gets hit with THAT one really hard from time-to-time. So now, the kids want stability and to stay in their school, with their friends. So we just sort of back away and let Mrs. Hammer dysregulate about the Geography Stuff.
Grateful to be free
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Arizona
Posts: 3,680
Hammer, my comments were aimed at the topic only, with no intention of addressing your particular situation, nor implying you are not a well spouse.
Certainly no one can know any particular situation that has not lived it.
I have lived in a family with three generations of mental illness available for me to witness and the many variations on the theme of Well spouse, ill spouse, addict spouse, etc etc. And sometimes the addict was not the mentally ill one...on and on it goes. The number of permutations is endless.
I do know that you are dealing with tremendously painful, difficult and frustrating circumstances.
Change of venue is never a cure, that's for sure. If someone is doing the work and making the changes in behavior, sometimes a fresh start is helpful, but if they aren't doing the "work"...it's just another chimera.
Magical thinking is NEVER the answer. Which I think is one of the points of the original quote you shared. Everyone has to "get real" about the situation and act accordingly.
Certainly no one can know any particular situation that has not lived it.
I have lived in a family with three generations of mental illness available for me to witness and the many variations on the theme of Well spouse, ill spouse, addict spouse, etc etc. And sometimes the addict was not the mentally ill one...on and on it goes. The number of permutations is endless.
I do know that you are dealing with tremendously painful, difficult and frustrating circumstances.
Change of venue is never a cure, that's for sure. If someone is doing the work and making the changes in behavior, sometimes a fresh start is helpful, but if they aren't doing the "work"...it's just another chimera.
Magical thinking is NEVER the answer. Which I think is one of the points of the original quote you shared. Everyone has to "get real" about the situation and act accordingly.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 117
This article sickens me deeply , the mentally ill spouse ("MIS"), and the well spouse ("WS")
Sounds like a non-consensual BDSM ritual where the "WS" dominates and controls the "WIS".
This was published by NAMI a very dishonest pharmaceutical front group. More on them here National Alliance on Mental Illness - SourceWatch
Hammer , we really have to talk.
Sounds like a non-consensual BDSM ritual where the "WS" dominates and controls the "WIS".
This was published by NAMI a very dishonest pharmaceutical front group. More on them here National Alliance on Mental Illness - SourceWatch
Hammer , we really have to talk.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 117
This article is extremely anti-recovery claiming the "WIS" condition is chronic with no scientific proof followed by detailed advice on how to coerce the "WIS" to take pharmaceutical drugs !
Those drugs and this kind of advice kept me disabled for years. I don't like "NAMI".
Those drugs and this kind of advice kept me disabled for years. I don't like "NAMI".
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by Threshold
Hammer, my comments were aimed at the topic only, with no intention of addressing your particular situation, nor implying you are not a well spouse.
Certainly no one can know any particular situation that has not lived it.
I have lived in a family with three generations of mental illness available for me to witness and the many variations on the theme of Well spouse, ill spouse, addict spouse, etc etc. And sometimes the addict was not the mentally ill one...on and on it goes. The number of permutations is endless.
I do know that you are dealing with tremendously painful, difficult and frustrating circumstances.
Change of venue is never a cure, that's for sure. If someone is doing the work and making the changes in behavior, sometimes a fresh start is helpful, but if they aren't doing the "work"...it's just another chimera.
Magical thinking is NEVER the answer. Which I think is one of the points of the original quote you shared. Everyone has to "get real" about the situation and act accordingly.
Certainly no one can know any particular situation that has not lived it.
I have lived in a family with three generations of mental illness available for me to witness and the many variations on the theme of Well spouse, ill spouse, addict spouse, etc etc. And sometimes the addict was not the mentally ill one...on and on it goes. The number of permutations is endless.
I do know that you are dealing with tremendously painful, difficult and frustrating circumstances.
Change of venue is never a cure, that's for sure. If someone is doing the work and making the changes in behavior, sometimes a fresh start is helpful, but if they aren't doing the "work"...it's just another chimera.
Magical thinking is NEVER the answer. Which I think is one of the points of the original quote you shared. Everyone has to "get real" about the situation and act accordingly.
You know I really value your perspective.
All this stuff makes everybody at least a little crazy.
Do Good.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 117
Originally Posted by Hammer
Sure I know.
And everything is Always All About you, right?
Real familiar with it.
And everything is Always All About you, right?
Real familiar with it.
This is a forum for us "MI" people, currently or recovered , I found the "NAMI" instructions defining us as less that full people highly insulting.
NAMI thinks if we don't like meds it has nothing to do with feeling like a zombie or those pesky 'side' effects, no no it is because we are to "sick" to possibly know we "need" to spend our lives on medication with no hope of recovery- (according to them).
Contrary to popular belief the National Alliance on Mental Illness is not a patient advocacy group. They always lobby against any efforts to stop human rights violations against the mentally ill.
They even lobbied against the black box suicidal thought warnings on the medications cause it might hurt sales.
Promoting NAMI in a mental illness forum is like promoting Budweiser in the alcoholism forum as a good thing.
Sorry for criticizing your topic but what can I say ?
Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 557
It does sound really cold, calculating, and harsh. But depending on the severity of mental illness, sometimes some of these things may be necessary. I mean, if you think about it, healthy marriages sort of go through this boundary setting process anyway. We work out who is better at what, what sort of discipline we will use with the kids, how we will spend our time.. Usually there is more give and take, but if someone isn't able to do something, that effects everyone. And when kids are in the mix, they are priority. Everybody has a right to be safe and secure. The distinction between the "well spouse" and "mentally ill spouse" is sort of rigid and demeaning. But I understand the premise, and I'm sure it depends on the severity of the situation.
Despite that, reading it made me really sad. I hope I am not doing this to my family with my mental illness. I feel guilty for getting married and having kids in the first place if this is what I do to them.
Despite that, reading it made me really sad. I hope I am not doing this to my family with my mental illness. I feel guilty for getting married and having kids in the first place if this is what I do to them.
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Originally Posted by Gal220
It does sound really cold, calculating, and harsh. But depending on the severity of mental illness, sometimes some of these things may be necessary. I mean, if you think about it, healthy marriages sort of go through this boundary setting process anyway. We work out who is better at what, what sort of discipline we will use with the kids, how we will spend our time.. Usually there is more give and take, but if someone isn't able to do something, that effects everyone. And when kids are in the mix, they are priority. Everybody has a right to be safe and secure. The distinction between the "well spouse" and "mentally ill spouse" is sort of rigid and demeaning. But I understand the premise, and I'm sure it depends on the severity of the situation.
Despite that, reading it made me really sad. I hope I am not doing this to my family with my mental illness. I feel guilty for getting married and having kids in the first place if this is what I do to them.
Despite that, reading it made me really sad. I hope I am not doing this to my family with my mental illness. I feel guilty for getting married and having kids in the first place if this is what I do to them.
That attitude is part of why I so admire Threshold, here.
And keep in mind that is a very Full List -- If any one MIS (per this document's terms) had ALL those features, it is doubtful they could function outside of an institution.
The concept being presented is not really about even helping or caring for a MIS, but rather how to protect and minimize damage to the rest of the family.
In our case, I do that by reminding myself -- I can ONLY have ONE #1 Priority. The Kids are the #1 Priority. None of the kids are named Mrs. Hammer. So I know that she is NOT the #1 Priority.
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