Why do I feel so guilty about standing my ground???
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Originally Posted by Spence7471 
So the issue comes down to do I offend the sensibilities of a recovering addict, or mine...
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Originally Posted by OpheliaKatz
I agree with what hopeful said -- at some point, the trust issue will be resolved. You will find out if you can trust her. In the meantime, look after yourself.
I think boundaries are a good thing when the addicts is in active addiction and no matter what you do, they will not respect your bondaries/rule. To me, once the addict has sobered up some, rules are just as important to maintain one's boundaries... and serve as a good faith step for the addict to show that they are making the effort. It is their choice whether they follow the rules... I am not making them do anything they do not want.. but there are direct consequences... something again addicts do not particularly care to be responsible for... I could go on....
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
Well, one answer is codependent thinking & the other is self-preservation. Which is of higher value to you right now? Protecting her feelings or yours?
There are sacrifices that need to be made... but if she is allowed to cross this boundary based on that thinking.. where does it stop?
And just to let you all know, this is not long term thinking... my plan is support her so she can get time under her belt and earn some trust... this is short term thinking to get thru the initial periods of rebuilding trust and the relationship. So for all those that are wonder.. yes, she will likely keep her phone without restrictions... and i will continue to pay for it... but that unfortunately sets back our relationship and builds in a resentment on my part which I will now have to add to the list of those to work to forgive...
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I'm not saying that - the opposite actually. I found that for me, the faster I broke codie habits/thinking, the faster *I* got healthy.
Spending this much time managing another grown person is too much for me - I won't do it. If I feel the need to check phone, bank, credit records then I'm enmeshing myself in bad habits. I don't WANT to parent my spouse - trust rebuilding is on him, not me.
Just my opinions Spence - this stuff is HARD & it sounds like it's all new for you?
Spending this much time managing another grown person is too much for me - I won't do it. If I feel the need to check phone, bank, credit records then I'm enmeshing myself in bad habits. I don't WANT to parent my spouse - trust rebuilding is on him, not me.
Just my opinions Spence - this stuff is HARD & it sounds like it's all new for you?
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It is all new FireSprite... and honestly, I have no issues with assigning rules to people who scream they want to be treated like an adult but skirt the responsibility to go with it. That type of behavior just burns me so badly... I have had to deal with it at work, and do not accept it at home... so you want to be part of the family.. you follow rules... whether you like them or not... there are rules in rehab for a reason...
And while I am new to being directly involved with addiction, I have been researching the hell out of it... hours upon hours... I understand what she is going thru, but she is and is not the victim here... she is a victim of her own doing... so playing the victim card also does not work well when there are truly others that have been victimized by the behavior.
And the whole point of restricting the phone was so i could not expend any effort on the phone... I do not want to police it... or any of it.. I am putting protections in place to protect me and my kids... she is free to do what she wants... and that includes follow the rules...
One thing I have realized from all this discussion is that her addicted behavior runs so hard against my core beliefs... and as such, any boundaries i set are already being pushed or crossed by her past behavior... and i have forgiven her for most of that past behavior as I do realize it was part of the addiction... but it is not forgotten, and will not be... that is imperitive to protect me.
And while I am new to being directly involved with addiction, I have been researching the hell out of it... hours upon hours... I understand what she is going thru, but she is and is not the victim here... she is a victim of her own doing... so playing the victim card also does not work well when there are truly others that have been victimized by the behavior.
And the whole point of restricting the phone was so i could not expend any effort on the phone... I do not want to police it... or any of it.. I am putting protections in place to protect me and my kids... she is free to do what she wants... and that includes follow the rules...
One thing I have realized from all this discussion is that her addicted behavior runs so hard against my core beliefs... and as such, any boundaries i set are already being pushed or crossed by her past behavior... and i have forgiven her for most of that past behavior as I do realize it was part of the addiction... but it is not forgotten, and will not be... that is imperitive to protect me.
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I think an addict who has "sobered up some" may be even less capable of rational thought than an addict who hasn't sobered up at all.
During this period of time I would fully expect rules & boundaries to be broken.
The first few days, weeks, and / or months of new sobriety for a drug addict are a very rough period of time for numerous reasons. Especially if it has been longer term drug use & addiction.
Thanks
During this period of time I would fully expect rules & boundaries to be broken.
The first few days, weeks, and / or months of new sobriety for a drug addict are a very rough period of time for numerous reasons. Especially if it has been longer term drug use & addiction.
Thanks
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Originally Posted by Spence7471
To me trust is something that can be built back up.. takes time tho... and to give it to someone who pissed it away without conditions in my opinion is foolish. And OpheliaKatz, you are correct, I should be able to trust my spouse... but she proved otherwise... now she must work to prove it once again.
My husband is an addict and I have been there with the trust/control/feeling used cycle. I totally get it and it's hard to get out of. But from, what you said, you want her to earn the trust but by having a pin or not allowing her to have money this isn't achievable - how can she prove to you that she won't use you again if she isn't given anything to be trusted with? I found, I had to either give a phone or money (I chose a phone with itemized bills- he is free to call or text whoever whenever but I can check up, which I do to help rebuild the trust). I have found this is the only way to rebuild trust. I hope this helps.
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Sorry, forgot to add...
I have a similar boundary to you that I will no longer tolerate being used and manipulated. I set this boundary by saying (to myself and once to him) that if the phone is used for drugs or he uses drugs (really its irrelevant whether he uses the phone to pick up as drugs are the issue) then he will no longer be welcome in our family home. It is then his choice/responsibility how he acts and what he does and is accountable for his own behaviour.
I have a similar boundary to you that I will no longer tolerate being used and manipulated. I set this boundary by saying (to myself and once to him) that if the phone is used for drugs or he uses drugs (really its irrelevant whether he uses the phone to pick up as drugs are the issue) then he will no longer be welcome in our family home. It is then his choice/responsibility how he acts and what he does and is accountable for his own behaviour.
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Princessofhope, 
Much of what you said resonated with me... however, i was checking the phone billing before, and that just became too tiresome asking who those numbers were and cross-checking against deleted/missing messages, etc...
So what it boiled down to was the PIN on the phone... it was a small step to building trust... and that is following the rules... it is a small step in the right direction IMO and was only to last while she was at the facility. Trust is an evolutionary process... give a little, let them earn a little... But really in the end, it is about me redefining my boundary to her... making sure she understands why things are, and will be, the way they are.
The kids and I went to visit her this weekend, it was a very good visit. She was even willing to let me put the PIN back on the phone as she understood the reasoning and wanted to show that she was willing to work within the rules. I did not put the PIN back on. Like your husband, she will either use it for good, or bad... the choice is hers. Problem is that i have no desire to check-up on it, so it is really not building much trust. Her willingness to have the PIN put back on was a good gesture on her part and went a good ways to rebuilding some of what was lost.
T
Much of what you said resonated with me... however, i was checking the phone billing before, and that just became too tiresome asking who those numbers were and cross-checking against deleted/missing messages, etc...
So what it boiled down to was the PIN on the phone... it was a small step to building trust... and that is following the rules... it is a small step in the right direction IMO and was only to last while she was at the facility. Trust is an evolutionary process... give a little, let them earn a little... But really in the end, it is about me redefining my boundary to her... making sure she understands why things are, and will be, the way they are.
The kids and I went to visit her this weekend, it was a very good visit. She was even willing to let me put the PIN back on the phone as she understood the reasoning and wanted to show that she was willing to work within the rules. I did not put the PIN back on. Like your husband, she will either use it for good, or bad... the choice is hers. Problem is that i have no desire to check-up on it, so it is really not building much trust. Her willingness to have the PIN put back on was a good gesture on her part and went a good ways to rebuilding some of what was lost.
T
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Originally Posted by Spence7471
It is all new FireSprite... and honestly, I have no issues with assigning rules to people who scream they want to be treated like an adult but skirt the responsibility to go with it. That type of behavior just burns me so badly... I have had to deal with it at work, and do not accept it at home... so you want to be part of the family.. you follow rules... whether you like them or not... there are rules in rehab for a reason...
And while I am new to being directly involved with addiction, I have been researching the hell out of it... hours upon hours... I understand what she is going thru, but she is and is not the victim here... she is a victim of her own doing... so playing the victim card also does not work well when there are truly others that have been victimized by the behavior.
And the whole point of restricting the phone was so i could not expend any effort on the phone... I do not want to police it... or any of it.. I am putting protections in place to protect me and my kids... she is free to do what she wants... and that includes follow the rules...
And while I am new to being directly involved with addiction, I have been researching the hell out of it... hours upon hours... I understand what she is going thru, but she is and is not the victim here... she is a victim of her own doing... so playing the victim card also does not work well when there are truly others that have been victimized by the behavior.
And the whole point of restricting the phone was so i could not expend any effort on the phone... I do not want to police it... or any of it.. I am putting protections in place to protect me and my kids... she is free to do what she wants... and that includes follow the rules...
There is no part of my definition of a marriage that allows for such a Parent-Child dynamic between husband & wife - I DETEST the idea of treating a grown man like a child. I'd rather be alone than raise my husband up as a man-child.
I'm not saying I haven't been there-done that because I have - it was my natural reaction to attempt to control his actions & force accountability. It never worked - he had to see the need for the "rules" on his own & have the ability to hold himself accountable to them otherwise it only ever gave BOTH of us an illusion to live under & gave resentments a lot of breeding ground.
This thread might not be up your alley exactly, but it was a big AHA moment for me in understanding the true limits of our control:
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...rol-scary.html (What can you control? Letting go of control is scary.)
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Thanks FireSprite, feel free to disagree anytime... 
You are correct that that is no way to have a marriage, and I do not plan on continuing one under such conditions indefinitely. However, we all have rules to follow by in any relationship... most are simply a given and do not need to be voiced as it is part of showing respect (i.e call if you are going to be late, etc...). I want to get back to such a place with my wife.. a partnership where mutual respect and trust are given. However, we are not there yet and if she expects to get said respect and trust, it is doing little things like following rules that will help get us there. Time will tell whether we get there...
Will have a look at that link you provided.
You are correct that that is no way to have a marriage, and I do not plan on continuing one under such conditions indefinitely. However, we all have rules to follow by in any relationship... most are simply a given and do not need to be voiced as it is part of showing respect (i.e call if you are going to be late, etc...). I want to get back to such a place with my wife.. a partnership where mutual respect and trust are given. However, we are not there yet and if she expects to get said respect and trust, it is doing little things like following rules that will help get us there. Time will tell whether we get there...
Will have a look at that link you provided.
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actually TRUST is kind of a funny thing......we SAY that people have to EARN our trust, but in truth, we simply make the decision to GRANT it.......or not. we see it all the time when one party is doing UNtrustworthy things, but the other party continues to blindly believe "they'd never do that" (......to me!).
it's the same with DIStrust.
example, bear with me....even tho our last two coffee pots had the delayed timer thingie so you can "set it and forget it" - i do not TRUST the coffee pot to turn on reliably, nor do i even trust myself to remember to get it ready to go the night before. instead i have the alarm set for "get up and make coffee time".
do i have any reason NOT to trust the coffee pot? NOPE.
has it ever "let me down" or failed in it's assigned task? nope.
i just choose not to. and there is NOTHING the coffee pot can do to change my mind. i MAY in the future "grant" the coffee pot the opportunity to use the set time for later function, and i may even come to find out that i've been an idiot all this time. OR it may work perfectly fine but i may still choose NOT to trust it.
it will still be MY decision, either way.
it's the same with DIStrust.
example, bear with me....even tho our last two coffee pots had the delayed timer thingie so you can "set it and forget it" - i do not TRUST the coffee pot to turn on reliably, nor do i even trust myself to remember to get it ready to go the night before. instead i have the alarm set for "get up and make coffee time".
do i have any reason NOT to trust the coffee pot? NOPE.
has it ever "let me down" or failed in it's assigned task? nope.
i just choose not to. and there is NOTHING the coffee pot can do to change my mind. i MAY in the future "grant" the coffee pot the opportunity to use the set time for later function, and i may even come to find out that i've been an idiot all this time. OR it may work perfectly fine but i may still choose NOT to trust it.
it will still be MY decision, either way.
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Spence,
I understand that checking bills is tiresome and I don't do it religiously, only if I have a gut feeling. In all honesty I don't need to check- trust is earnt/regained by him staying clean and I know whether he's used or not without the proof. if he uses, it's irrelevant how he got it- what's important is that he has betrayed my trust.
Take small steps, give trust each day it is deserved and enforce your boundary of not being used, if necessary. I try to live in today. I have a plan for the future no matter what he does and I know what he did in the past. But for my sanity I focus on today, as much as I can!!!
I understand that checking bills is tiresome and I don't do it religiously, only if I have a gut feeling. In all honesty I don't need to check- trust is earnt/regained by him staying clean and I know whether he's used or not without the proof. if he uses, it's irrelevant how he got it- what's important is that he has betrayed my trust.
Take small steps, give trust each day it is deserved and enforce your boundary of not being used, if necessary. I try to live in today. I have a plan for the future no matter what he does and I know what he did in the past. But for my sanity I focus on today, as much as I can!!!
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I have heard here on SR the term so many times, more will be revealed. Wow, that drove me NUTS when people said that to me. Thing is, it's so very true. Addict behavior is pretty easy to spot once you know what you are looking for. When I had finally broken out of my codie ways for the most part (no more bank account checking, no more looking for hiddens, reading texts, etc), it was still easy for me to spot. Because addict behavior is not respectful. It's not trustworthy. It's a gut feeling, and learning to trust your gut. Keep moving forward Spence. I hope you are taking the time to get support for the hurts you have suffered yourself. More will be revealed.
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