HardLessons

When I first started reading on the internet about methadone, I came across a blog article about accepting crumbs from people we love.

After reading that article, this notion "acceptance of crumbs" has not left my mind. I clearly saw it in my relationship with my addict. I also see it as a common element in various posted stories.

In my relationship, my words (except when I got angry) expressed daily love, caring, compassion, hope, & support. My actions were totally consistence with my words but spoke 100 times louder than my words.

Her words (except when she was angry) expressed love, caring, my importance to her life & family, hope, & support for me. Not at all times, but often enough to cause major problems her actions were not consistent with her words. At those times her actions equated to an offering of crumbs from her plate. I too often accepted those crumbs. I wanted & needed those crumbs.

So my question is (if this is dumb please excuse me) what is wrong with me? Why did I accept crumbs from her on so many occasions. Why do so many on this & other forums accept crumbs from our addicts.

Again, if this is a silly question, I apologize in advance. This notion of crumbs has been bothering me for the past couple days.

Thanks

Ariesagain

Have you researched intermittent reinforcement? It's immensely powerful and for some reasons addicts know instinctively and unconsciously how to do it expertly. I'll see if I can add a link...

ETA: Found this...have I posted this in your thread before? If I'm repeating myself, it wouldn't be the first time! It wouldbe the first time!

http://psychopathsandlove.com/interm...reinforcement/

Ariesagain

See, now if stupid autocorrect hadn't changed that from wouldn't be the first time, that would have been funny. A little anyway!

Sending you a hug.

HardLessons

You may have posted that link for me before I cant remember. I will read it carefully this time & remember the article going forward.

Thank you for taking time to respond

AnvilheadII

there's a thread about the intermittent chicken, posted on the F&F Alcoholics side.....let me see if i can find it.

eureka! http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ittent+chicken

HardLessons

Ariesagain

Please forgive me. You did post that article for me previously. I did read it previously. With all the BS in my head I completely forgot

I just read it again slowly & carefully

It's an excellent article & makes a lot of sense

The only part that didn't fit My relationship was having fear that I would lose her. It was always very different than that. When things got stressful between us & we had words or would fight She told me numerous times that I'm stuck with her. & her crazy life Like it or not. Your stuck with me. I would tease her back & say I went before the judge & got a life sentence

Other than that part. Everything else fit to a tee

Thank you so much for bringing that article back to my attention.

HardLessons

Anvilhead

That was also a great link to a forum post. I don't read much in the alcoholics family forum. But that was a great read &. Made a lot of sense

My addict did dole out intermittent (erratic) rewards. No question.

I never would even think to do that to her. If I was angry with her & didn't talk to her for a few days. She knew why because I told her

Maybe I'm just plain stupid but I would never have thought she would do something like that on purpose to gain control over me &. manipulate me. I'd be f-ing pissed if it was on purpose.

Thank you for the information. Your the best

Ariesagain

No apology necessary...I just couldn't remember where I'd posted the link lately.

I admit I'm confused by your relationship with this woman. It seems to have been a romantic relationship in your mind but it was not sexual (and there was the reality of her boyfriend)...but then you mention a few things where you sound more paternal toward her than anything?

Can you categorize it? The reason I'm asking is that if it is mostly a deep need you might have to be a father figure, there are other, healthy ways to be that person to a child in need.

If it's in fact a romantic attachment, it's worth exploring why you were so drawn to someone you could not have, especially since you did have a partner in your life until she left you over this toxic attachment.

You don't answer to me, don't misunderstand. But why this woman and all her problems? Just the physical beauty? Does she remind you of another woman you could never "have"....your mother? A sister?

Was it her child-like qualities? The neediness?

Again, not expecting you to answer here but it's something you and your therapist might discuss?

As I look back over my life, every serious relationship I had was either a copy of my father or his antithesis. Every one. And all save one ended ugly.

Hope you're having a good day...

HardLessons

I typed a big response to your questions above on my cell phone. It took a while to type went to hit submit reply & got a message that I wasn't logged in - poof gone.

I don't mind your questions. I came to SR for help with a crazy situation. I want that help & don't mind answering your questions. I appreciate your time to think of my problems & formulate questions.

I fully recognize that my story is very unusual. As I think back to day one in my relationship I think to myself WTF did you do here. I understand its difficult for someone else (an outsider) to understand it. I don't understand it myself.

I think I did answer a lot of this in my initial thread. It is a long thread so I will try to clarify as best I can now. Please understand I did not tell my entire story. I purposely left out certain information which I am not comfortable providing. I posted a lot of personal information enough so you could possibly understand & provide me with assistance. I did not nor do I intend to tell all.

Her ABF: he was not uncovered until about a year into the relationship. From the start until I found out about him, I was led to believe by her it was just her & her daughter struggling to get by in life. Her ABF was uncovered by my GF. She found him on my addict's social media sites. From pictures it was clear he was in the picture from the start. When I confronted my addict about the BF it was a traumatic couple of weeks. She told me she didn't tell me about him because of his terrible past with prison felony's & IV heroine use since his late teens. It is a horrible past. She lied to me by omission. She begged me not to abandon her over it.

Her ABF is not capable to provide her with intellectual emotional or stable financial support. They have been together with the exception of separation by prison & rehab since they were teens. She cant trust him to have his own car or trust him with money. She rules the house hold. He does what she tells him to do. Whatever stability they have she provides it. He adds little to that mix. He is an active IV heroine user. I've personally seen all the signs.

I am not nor ever was her father, her brother, her uncle. She was never the daughter I never had. It wasn't like that at all

Our relationship developed over time. It was not a love at first sight type of thing. She had significant needs I was willing to help. Initially the money it took to help mean nothing to me - it meant everything to her.

Love developed. We spent a great deal of time with each other. We talked for countless hours. Phone text emails - countless. We did things together dining out, going for walks, bowling, miniature golf, sporting events, we disagreed & fought, etc. I enjoyed spending time with her. I loved being in her company,

My love for her went way beyond simply external beauty. She has a lot of great qualities which I love. Yes I came to learn she also has horrendous liabilities.

This all continued even after the discovery of ABF. She gave me gifts pictures & thoughtful cards. I did the same for her. I love her deeply. We would often be alone together. Sometimes me her & daughter. Sometimes all four of us. She didn't hesitate to tell me she loved me hug me kiss me or hold my hand in front of her BF & daughter. There was nothing going on to hide from. Her entire life was an open book to me including all the pictures from way back when she was a baby. I wanted to know her & understand her life. She was more than happy to show & tell me.

I would say it was about two years into this relationship that I started to fully understand the notion of addiction & all that goes along with it. From the start her life was full of drama & crisis. One crisis after another. But I didn't understand it. Two years later ok she's an addict he's an addict - & guess what I'm in over my head in my own denial & addiction.

From the start I tried hard to talk sense with her about BS crap that was happening. I yelled at her fought with her. She cried I cried we cried together. It was all very intensely emotional unlike anything I have ever experienced over a long period of time. Her & I had an intensely emotional relationship.

After I gained knowledge about addiction I started to stay out of her business. I no longer stuck my nose in things. I was more letting her deal with life. She brought problems to my attention when needed.

Yes she has lied to me. Yes she has at times manipulated me. Yes she has at times used me. Do I love her yes deeply Do I care about her yes deeply Has she ever made me happy in our relationship yes too many times to count Is my relationship with her toxic for me Yes that's why I am here

I hope above helps you to understand. If you don't its ok its really all such a mess. My head is spinning badly from having to type this info twice.

SmallButMighty

Why not?

There really is no difference if your loved one is a drinker or a drugger.

My main qualifier, my exhusband,an alcoholic, is what brought me to SoberRecovery.... the things I learned here made me examine many other aspects and relationships in my life as well... some with alcoholics, some with other types of addicts... some co-morbids ( mixed mental illnesses and substance)...and most importantly I learned that I was a codependent, who had been raised by a codependent. The fog lifted and my life improved ( with a lot of growing pains) 10fold.

Friends and family of alcoholics or friends and family of drug addicts... or for that matter gambling..porn.. whatever.. it doesn't matter. Those of us who love people who are destroying themselves with WHATEVER addiction are facing the same kind of pain. The SUBSTANCE they use is not the qualifying thing that brings us to these pages.

Of course everybody's life circumstance is unique... but the pain brought into our lives, that we ALLOW into our lives, is something people on all F&F boards here at SR have in common.

I have often wondered why there wasn't more cross over between the F&F support boards. After all, we are all in the same life-boat....

I truly hope you, and other friends and family of addicts feel welcome on the friends and family of alcoholics side, and vice versa!

*hugs*

HardLessons

Hi SBM

I do read newer posts in the F&F of alcoholics. Forum. I haven't gotten to older posts

I am however. Reading through the entire F&F substance abuse. Forum. Start to finish. I am also reading other similar forums

Yes I do realize there are similarities. I also see the great pain suffering of F&F. Your point is well taken

Thank you for your reply