Blogs


Notices

Nobody's doormat.

Old 08-18-2016, 11:48 AM
  # 61 (permalink)  
Forum Leader
 
cece1960's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Burgh
Posts: 1,989
Originally Posted by Yours Truly View Post
In other thoughts, I want to mention again that it would be nice if there were a forum for addicts and previous addicts who are co-dependent. I mean, addicts and previous addicts have developed behaviors which have caused them become reliant on different sources to support their habits, no?
Hi Yours Truly,
I will bring your request to the admins, but I also wanted to mention that from my experience, the more you divide the group, the less feedback. You night want to first try out a thread in the addict sections.
cece1960 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to cece1960 For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-19-2016)
Old 08-18-2016, 10:34 PM
  # 62 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by cece1960 View Post
Hi Yours Truly,
I will bring your request to the admins, but I also wanted to mention that from my experience, the more you divide the group, the less feedback. You night want to first try out a thread in the addict sections.
Hi Cece. That's very nice of you! Thanks. What you said does make sense, but I don't see anything geared toward co-dependency for addicts, just for friends and family of addicts. I think co-dependency for addicts is a pretty big issue in and of itself. That's just my two cents. :-)

There are some other things I want to explore on the other threads, such as alternative recovery methods and mental health. I can use some brushing up in some areas. Thanks a lot for your comment darlin'.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
cece1960 (08-22-2016)
Old 08-18-2016, 10:39 PM
  # 63 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Well, my Dad sent me an email today, but I'll get to that.

I also had a therapy session with a new therapist today. Not the most recently mentioned individual; this was a person I thought I would be meeting with every 5-6 weeks or so to touch base. It turned out that I didn't find out until the end of the session that since I will be receiving outside services within the same provider that I will no longer be meeting with her.

Anyway, the session went well. She was a young woman, which is fine; some people are focused and knowledgeable. There were some things I didn't know and some things she didn't know, so we guided one another as we went along. She was very engaged; however, I think that if I didn't know the things that I do, that it would have taken many sessions to have made the progress that we did today. I was able to get her up to speed pretty quickly on the situation, although I had to reiterate several times that my Dad is a sociopath because she kept wanting to coerce me into these "what if" scenarios as far as establishing a mutually healthy relationship with him. I had to be so blunt about his pathology as to rattle off DSM criteria and many very severe forms of punishment that I endured before I got my point across. So then we discussed where I wanted to go with this. I told her I was at a crossroad between choosing between learning boundaries or acceptance as far as just deciding to let go (because I wasn't sure I could work on both), but leaning toward the latter. I told her that if he contacted me that I wanted to support him through this difficult time because I don't know how sociopaths handle grief, but that afterward I wanted to sever ties. At the end of the session I was pleased, because as I am so communicative, I realized that with a talented and experienced therapist I will progress very quickly.

Then I came home to an email from my Dad.

The subject line was: NO SUBJECT.

The body of the email read: "WIG DAY!" And that was it.

Attached were several lovely photos of my stepmom wearing a new wig.

She recently started her 3rd round of chemotherapy treatments and apparently has begun to lose her hair. Otherwise she looked really good.

I have not responded to the email, and I did not receive it without some disappointment, actually. Emotionally, I was already halfway to the outer limits. I was really, really prepared to begin moving on. All things considered - and although I get anxious, depressed, angry, and aggravated at times - I'm relatively happy with where I am emotionally. I'm at a good place to set some boundaries.

But I don't even know what to say or how I should say it. I'm glad to hear from you? Thanks for writing? Stay in touch? I'm a little angry, too. Last time I heard from him he made it seem like she was really, really sick, so I had no idea what kind of condition she has been in all this time. God forbid I should ASK lest I be ostracized. I don't need to be walking on eggshells with this man or have what little of the fragile serenity I have reestablished disrupted, seriously.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-19-2016)
Old 08-19-2016, 11:51 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
I still haven't replied to my Dad's email. After having slept on it, it occurred to me that if I do, essentially I will be allowing him back onto my turf and it still doesn't sit well with me.

When I posted about that book passage that I thought advocated passiveness, there was one constructive message - or word - I took away, that being "noncommittal". I can use that. I don't want him to glean a single emotion I am feeling. Even a delay in sending the email is an emotional message of sorts.

There needs to be a book titled: How to Think Like a Sociopath. Lol! Maybe there is one.

The primary emotion I feel is anger, but I also want to say things like "Gee, I thought you rode off into the sunset. . . ." or something along those lines, which really isn't far from the truth. Thankfully, it's easier to conceal one's emotions behind an email. At the same time, it's also easier to read too much between the lines. So noncommittal is probably the best approach. Noncommittal isn't noncommittal enough though. It won't reinforce my aspiring satellite status. I guess I could interpret satellite status as sending signals back and forth. Like I'm here, but I'm not really here.

As I've been attempting to unravel this mess, I often find myself waking up for 10-15 minute stints throughout the night to read and then fall back to sleep with my tablet in my hands. I found a very interesting article by Willem Martens, MD, PhD, Director of W. Kahn Institute of Theoretical Psychiatry and Neuroscience, titled Emotional Capacities of Sensitivity in Psychopaths. He wrote:

"Normal, healthy sensitivity may be brought about by:

Grief. Death of a friend, relative or partner (Martens, 1997) or other beloved persons may bring about by the psychopath guilt, self-reflection, and social-emotional and moral maturation. For example, the author observed this development in a forensic psychiatric patient who was divorced from his wife because of his irresponsible and unreliable behavior. This man lost his 14 year old son who died in a traffic accident. As a reaction to this event he felt for the first time since his forensic psychiatric residence guilty for his selfish and irresponsible life-style and he realize that could never redeem his errors for his son. As a response he became very motivated to change his attitude and he gradually recovered and demonstrated remarkable emotional, and associated social and moral maturation."


I'm not sure what to think of this, because this is all news to me. Surely it beats all the blogging opinions and anecdotal evidence I have seen (which is all to the contrary), but the words "may" and "a" noted in the article did not escape my attention.

So much of what I have read reminds me of picking up one of those nonsense tabloids near the checkout at the grocery store, junk science or FOX NEWS which have turned the general American population into zombies; eventually you can't separate fact from fiction. It does read as a very scholarly article, but it's really, really hard to ferret out well-referenced information with citations.

So, I guess I'll be on the hunt for another book - this one on boundaries. Ring sent me a nice list of books. I had another "a ha" moment when it also occurred to me that I probably decided not to make any more so-called "friends" because I never really learned how to turn them away. I got tired of trying to weed out the vampires anyway, and really, I'm very content in my little bubble and I virtually never get bored.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-19-2016)
Old 08-19-2016, 12:55 PM
  # 65 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by cece1960 View Post
Hi Yours Truly,
I will bring your request to the admins, but I also wanted to mention that from my experience, the more you divide the group, the less feedback. You night want to first try out a thread in the addict sections.
Cece, I just want to emphasize my opinion a bit. Addiction to inanimate substances and co-dependency to people are difficult to reconcile in the mind of an addict.

It's enough for an addict to recover from an addiction to alcohol or other substances without the additional obstacle of severing ties with the provider(s). An opportunity for the addict to resolve these co-dependency issues would also relieve a great deal of burden on the provider.

And sometimes that provider - for whatever convoluted reason - needs that addict to remain dependent on him or her as well. It could be the pusher, it could be family, etc. That's a lot of additional pressure for the addict to overcome.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-19-2016)
Old 08-19-2016, 01:51 PM
  # 66 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
I should write my Dad back and say, "Nice wig. I want a Harley."

Hahahaha! Oh, I am wicked.
Yours Truly is offline  
Old 08-19-2016, 02:25 PM
  # 67 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Another thing that I failed to mention is that after all these threats of disowning me again, just about a week before he dropped "the bomb" about my stepmom's 2nd round of treatments failing, he told me "I'll always be here for you." Hmm. Well, I thought it was peculiar, naturally. In all my remaining gullibleness, I just decided to roll with it and gave him the benefit of the doubt as he hadn't yet become really verbally abusive. Then a couple of days later he excitedly told me that he had made me the sole beneficiary of his will. Then a few days after that he told me that my stepmom's 2nd round of treatments failed and he requested my presence. When I told him I couldn't be present, that's when he started becoming belligerent. I realized then that those gestures were not sincere and that he was looking for a tradeoff. I told him I wasn't interested in a monetary tradeoff. Aside from that, he could remarry or use all of his assets as he grows into old age. I'm not stupid.

I feel like demanding an apology! Wig day. Pffft.


Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-19-2016)
Old 08-19-2016, 04:43 PM
  # 68 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by cece1960 View Post
Hi Yours Truly,
I will bring your request to the admins, but I also wanted to mention that from my experience, the more you divide the group, the less feedback. You night want to first try out a thread in the addict sections.
So I guess the bottom line is this:

If codependents / friends / family (i.e., ENABLERS) don't have the wherewithal to take control of the situation, addicts need a place where they can go to learn the skills needed to get away from them.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-19-2016)
Old 08-19-2016, 05:40 PM
  # 69 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Addicts and Alcoholics of Enablers. I like it. I'd better be careful. I've been known to start riots around here. Lol!
Yours Truly is offline  
Old 08-19-2016, 05:58 PM
  # 70 (permalink)  
Ann
Nature Girl
 
Ann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
YT, we have many many people here on this forum, and the other friends and family forums who are what we call "double winners", recovering from both substance addiction and also codependency.

They treat each separately and work two separate programs and do very well with things just as they are here.

We also have many forums for secular recovery, both for the addicts and for the codependents.

I think if you read around you will find a place, or places, that work both sides for your recovery.

Personally, I find that most of us come to recovery from different paths but once we begin working and living recovery and healing, we are walking together on this journey, toward the same end...serenity and peaceful, healthy living.
Ann is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Ann For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-22-2016), cece1960 (08-22-2016), Opivotal (08-22-2016)
Old 08-20-2016, 10:08 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by Ann View Post
YT, we have many many people here on this forum, and the other friends and family forums who are what we call "double winners", recovering from both substance addiction and also codependency.

They treat each separately and work two separate programs and do very well with things just as they are here.

We also have many forums for secular recovery, both for the addicts and for the codependents.

I think if you read around you will find a place, or places, that work both sides for your recovery.

Personally, I find that most of us come to recovery from different paths but once we begin working and living recovery and healing, we are walking together on this journey, toward the same end...serenity and peaceful, healthy living.
Well, you've been here for a long, long time, Ann, and Cece has too. I s'pose I've been a bit angry over the past couple of days.

I'm all thumbs when it comes to boundaries and codependency. For me, "enabling" is a much plainer term. For an addict, it might be simpler to view an enabler as someone who is fueling their addiction as opposed to a codependent.

For example, it's easier for me to think that if I respond to my Dad's email that I'll be enabling (or accepting) his behavior by his not apologizing to me, and he will be enabling my behavior just by accepting my response. I don't see how codependency plays into that.

Well, I'll just respond neutrally and noncommittally and take it from there. I just don't like it - mostly because I don't know the right way to handle it. I'll hold off for a while. If you can offer any suggestions I would be really appreciative. Thanks a bunch.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-22-2016)
Old 08-20-2016, 10:58 AM
  # 72 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Well, I think I need to confront my inner skeptic.

I was wrong about some things, but not without good reason. I assumed that my stepmom was attempting to push me out of my Dad's life again (or vice versa).

If he was attempting to manipulate me in this way by his silence. . . .I don't know. It has left me very confused. Maybe he was manipulating me by making me thinking he would ostracize me without actually saying it. Maybe his contacting me is manipulating me into believing he won't ostracize me again. All I can do is predict his future behaviors based on his past behaviors and take his personality into account. I'll rely on my therapist's final opinion on that note.

I just have to try to be cautious because my intuitiveness at times sometimes borders on being overly suspicious. He just hasn't proven himself trustworthy. . . .it's as simple as that. At the end of the day, I just don't believe that it's safe to form a deep emotional attachment to him. Or maybe any emotional attachment at all. I just don't see how that's possible.

How to think like a sociopath.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-22-2016)
Old 08-20-2016, 11:13 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
I just went to Amazon and did a search for that title and there was none. I'm kind of surprised. I'll probably be on the FBI watch list now though, lol.
Yours Truly is offline  
Old 08-20-2016, 11:52 AM
  # 74 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Well, I just decided to go with my instincts and reply to the email, being careful not to use the word "I" or "love" or "sorry" or "keep in touch" or "thank you". Just pleasant, perfunctory and noncommittal:

"It's a very classy wig, and as expected, she looks very, very lovely wearing it."

And it was sincere.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-22-2016)
Old 08-20-2016, 12:21 PM
  # 75 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Speaking of "I's" and "me's" (and being too lazy to go to Grammar Girl to find out if the punctuation is correct), I want to apologize for all the I's and me's used in this thread.

I haven't taken the time to ask what brings anyone else here, and I haven't gone to explore anyone else's profile (the latter because I really feel like it's kind of a private thing and it even feels like being nosy).

But, there's also that fear of getting too close thing, too, and not wanting to wear out my welcome or make a pest of myself.

So, just know that my lack of reciprocity isn't for a lack of concern, curiosity, interest or even love. I have more than an inkling why Ann is here and what she shares. We're not on the same page spiritually and I imagine I'm not a very healthy person for her. Probably energy draining. And, I don't even know about poor Ring or anyone else. I feel so selfish. I'm sorry.

Being here has already brought about a lot of changes in the way I think, speak, and my overall attitude (even if I still have to check myself) and I'm very grateful for that. I hope to pay it forward sometime. . . .
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-22-2016)
Old 08-21-2016, 11:03 AM
  # 76 (permalink)  
1 bite&all resistance crumbles
 
Cathy31's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: IRELAND
Posts: 2,207
I am so sorry to hear of your difficulties. Only you know what will bring you peace. Nowhere in your situation I would probably want closure and would honestly share that I am sick of the threats and the emotional abuse and the drama and I would wish both your stepmom and your dad on their way with love. And each day pray for them but stay away. If you per dad wants to make amends to you after your stepmom dies let him put in the effort. Personally I have never liked the silent treatment and would prefer to close off and say thanks but no thanks to these people that you find damaging ungrateful and quite awful. To pray for the, that they both be blessed with their hearts' desires is also helpful whether on believes in God or not.
Good luck-if you so choose to re engage you probably need to consider doing it without an expectations...
Cath
Cathy31 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Cathy31 For This Useful Post:
Ann (08-23-2016), Belier (08-22-2016)
Old 08-21-2016, 11:40 AM
  # 77 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by Cathy31 View Post
I am so sorry to hear of your difficulties. Only you know what will bring you peace. Nowhere in your situation I would probably want closure and would honestly share that I am sick of the threats and the emotional abuse and the drama and I would wish both your stepmom and your dad on their way with love. And each day pray for them but stay away. If you per dad wants to make amends to you after your stepmom dies let him put in the effort. Personally I have never liked the silent treatment and would prefer to close off and say thanks but no thanks to these people that you find damaging ungrateful and quite awful. To pray for the, that they both be blessed with their hearts' desires is also helpful whether on believes in God or not.
Good luck-if you so choose to re engage you probably need to consider doing it without an expectations...
Cath
Thank you for your thoughtful post Cathy. I wholeheartedly agree and I wish you'd been here a week ago. He contacted me a few days ago. I chose to reply and the pity party has begun. Not really, but I'm so angry that I've shut down and am unable to rationalize at the moment.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Ann (08-23-2016), Belier (08-22-2016)
Old 08-21-2016, 11:47 AM
  # 78 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Before I copy and paste the below comment, I want to start by saying that this particular topic about addicts and enablers may or may not have been precipitated by my Dad's recent contact. I don't know. I do know that I'm not happy that he contacted me. I do know that I think I have made some valid points though. I would post this in another relevant thread but at this time don't have the energy to take the heat from those - at this point in their recovery - still feel like they are being victimized by the addict and haven't taken their power back (kind of like me). Maybe I'll post it elsewhere in the future.

After giving it some more thought, I decided that it is appropriate - and important - to stand ground regarding my opinion on addicts needing a place to go to deal with entanglements related to enablement issues. Feel free to agree to disagree. Or not.

There are certain words in the English language we use for emphasis. The titles of the forums here that are geared toward codependency are welcoming of friends and family, not the other way around. They aren't even neutral. And there's no need to pussyfoot around the term "codependent"; active enablers are what they are, just as active addicts are what they are. I doubt there's a "recovered" codependent on the planet who would go to the grave strapped with the label "enabler", but yet you see a lot of previous addicts dependent on inaccurately labeling themselves addicts and alcoholics for the rest of their lives ("recovered" in quotes due to the implication of illness or disease). Ironically, one doesn't see a whole lot of recovered codependents dissuading the dependent behavior of previous addicts who continue to inaccurately label themselves. How can an active addict shake codependency to people when they enter a program that encourages them to be dependent on a label for the rest of their lives? I bet those double winners are very, very far and few in between. Seems kind of paradoxical with all that contradictory labeling and whatnot, actually. Maybe they actually chose not to continue to label themselves as addicts.

There is a lot of misuse and / or disuse of the English language in the recovery community - pivotal terms at that. . . .and people who want to get clean need THEIR OWN specific place to go to learn how to break the chains that bind them to the people who fuel their addictions and continue to believe those people are keeping them safe. Even if it didn't turn out to be a very active place, at least the door would still be open (one would hope). It could be a prime place to offer another jumping-off point for additional resources as well. I don't think that's too much to ask of an addiction recovery community.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Ann (08-23-2016)
Old 08-21-2016, 12:19 PM
  # 79 (permalink)  
Ann
Nature Girl
 
Ann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
After giving it some more thought, I decided that it is appropriate - and important - to stand ground regarding my opinion on addicts needing a place to go to deal with entanglements related to enablement issues. Feel free to agree to disagree. Or not.
Okay, since you invited a response....I think you are micro-analyzing people here, people you don't even know and whose stories are unknown to you. You are throwing labels and behaviour generalizations unfairly at people who have been working a program of recovery for many years and who have found serenity, peace, a healthier way of living, and the ability to choose what is and is not a healthy relationship and make a choice to detach or not.

You have a whole bunch of choices where to post here, many many double winners post on several forums.

I just can't see dividing us further when our diversity has always been embraced and handled by fair and supportive responses, no matter what our specific circumstance.

I say the above respectfully, you asked and I answered honestly and from my own years of experience here.
Ann is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Ann For This Useful Post:
Belier (08-22-2016), Cathy31 (08-28-2016), cece1960 (08-22-2016), hopepraylove (08-24-2016), Opivotal (08-22-2016)
Old 08-21-2016, 11:48 PM
  # 80 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by Ann View Post
Okay, since you invited a response....I think you are micro-analyzing people here, people you don't even know and whose stories are unknown to you.
I'm sorry you took my post personally.

You are throwing labels and behaviour generalizations unfairly at people who have been working a program of recovery for many years and who have found serenity, peace, a healthier way of living, and the ability to choose what is and is not a healthy relationship and make a choice to detach or not.
Yes, I was generalizing. Just that. Generalizing. And it's not unfair. It's not one bit unfair. I wasn't suggesting snatching the rug from under friends and family.

You have a whole bunch of choices where to post here, many many double winners post on several forums.
I appreciate diverse opinions, and we'll avoid getting into statistics which for this recovery website would be impossible to prove anyway. Overall estimated abstinence statistics for addicts working traditional programs just for substance abuse are grim.

I just can't see dividing us further when our diversity has always been embraced and handled by fair and supportive responses, no matter what our specific circumstance.
I don't see evidence of diversity in the titles of the codependency forums. If I didn't know there had already been a plainly titled codependency forum here previously, I would have never posted this thread. I already hedged because I didn't know where I fit. My Dad isn't addicted to any substance, and I ended my addiction approximately 10 years ago.

As far as division, I see a men's forum marked "private" and I see a women's forum marked "private". I think a similar approach would avoid a lot of hurt feelings in the event that a forum was created for Addicts and Alcoholics of Enablers and Friends and Families of Addicts and Alcoholics as well. Division sometimes has its place.

I say the above respectfully, you asked and I answered honestly and from my own years of experience here.
Sorry to disturb your comfort zone my dear. Please don't take my post personally - it wasn't intended to single out any one individual as different people work their programs in different ways. It's just base reality.

Personally, I have drawn ideas and concepts from many different programs in achieving my abstinence, including 12-step programs, and will do so in this situation as well. It's that "take what you can use and leave the rest" concept.

As an aside, I have a passing interest in sociology. The other day I went to Wikipedia to read their sociology page. There are 103 branches of sociology listed. Today it dawned on me that there is not a single one on recovery communities. It is a fascinating avenue.
Yours Truly is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Yours Truly For This Useful Post:
Ann (08-23-2016)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:19 PM.