Nobody's doormat.
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Originally Posted by Ann 
What's important is that you came back and can find some support and comfort with the people here.
It's a lovely Saturday, I hope the sun is shining in your corner of the world.
Hugs
It's a lovely Saturday, I hope the sun is shining in your corner of the world.
Hugs
xoxo
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Update. Firstly, I have somewhat avoiding this thread. A lot has happened. At first I was too heartbroken to post, and I had to get through that and apply some logic to make sense of it all before I posted. Then, I realize the sensitivity of the situation and that it's difficult for for folks to offer advice. Although intellectually I have a grip on what's happening, I need to hold myself accountable and keep from slipping into denial and folding. Having said that, I have decided to keep this thread alive if for no other reason than to journal and hopefully help someone else who comes along finds him/herself in a similarly unfortunate situation. Finally, I decided to remove the signature "Vic, hand me the remote"; the main reason being they're my dad's words - not mine. But as I further describe the current situation, it will become clear how eerily true the phrase really is.
So here's the deal. My Dad and stepmom returned the rosary beads, and my stepmom enclosed a lovely card thank you card with the sentiment "I love you, Vicki." Naturally I was very touched, and of course wept. I decided to stick my neck out (all the while respecting my father as a separate individual than my stepmom) and send him an email. I did the unthinkable: I CONFRONTED him. That's right. But it was a very, very diplomatic - and I thought - inoffensive confrontation.
Well, that backfired, and having read about confrontations, I was expecting that. He sent me a very nasty, abusive and accusatory email in return on behalf of both himself of him AND Vicki, blaming me for behaviors I exhibited when I was 15 years old - things that culminated from being raised by abusive and neglectful parents, things that neither one of them have ever taken responsibility for. As I was a child, I will not take responsibility for behaviors that they created in me and which they never took steps to resolve. I needed help at a very, very young age. And so, after having read this email, I then realized that Vicki's card was disingenuous.
After I wrote the above "confrontation" (which I'd hoped would come across as a polite request) - and within the same email - I offered to buy a round trip flight to come out and visit for a few days, at which time my Dad informed me that Vicki wasn't feeling well, that she had been in bed for days, etc., etc. This may or may not be true, but I found it a little peculiar since they had just had guests the previous week and had just spent several days showing them around town, participating in various activities. Vic, hand me the remote. Once again, she's playing the victim, pushing me out of his life and he's going along with it. He's using any excuse he can, blaming me for petty things like teenage growing pains (granted, it was more like smoking pot and running away from home, but big whoop, right)? And he got rid of me then. She pushed me out of his life, and I went to live in a group home. And that was fine by me. For the first time in my life I felt safe, I felt cared for and often felt loved. 15 ended up being a pretty damned good year.
Running away from home was like escaping from prison. It was EXHILARATING. And when I made the decision a week or so not to respond his initial email I posted about I had that same feeling.
I've been reading a bit about narcissistic sociopaths, how manipulative they are and the webs they weave. The parallels to my Dad just blows my mind. It's possible that they're both sociopaths. My stepmom never, ever expressed the least amount of compassion or love when I was growing up. She used to just stand aside when my Dad beat me. When I flew out to visit last year, I made the mistake of briefly locking eyes with her. Her eyes were like two black voids; soulless, cold, stony, insensitive. Maybe evil. I'll never forget it. It was like facing off with Nosferatu.
I think that when my Dad figures out that I'm not going to cave to his manipulation and apologize for being such a "rotten kid" that he's 1) going to become more abusive or 2) wait until she dies and bribe me back into his life with money, or make all kinds of excuses about how he was just so distraught about her dying or how he's so sorry for being uncommunicative or any number of tactics to weasel his way into my life.
Here's how I see it right now: It's unforgivable to me that he would allow her to push me out of his life again. I've always been second-rate. Always. Granted, she will die a bitter, jealous, hateful woman with a guilty conscience - or not, if she's a sociopath - but that is not enough solace to reestablish communications with him. He will never, ever hold himself accountable for the way he has treated me. If he does, it will be a trick. And THAT'S where it will get hard. THAT'S how narcissists keep reeling their victims back in over and over and over. They're masters of deception.
Wait until they go to the mailbox day after day and there are no more sunshiny cards from me, no more loving emails, no more encouragement, love or support of any kind. Then Vicki can start thinking about where my Dad is going to go next - to some other poor woman with low self-esteem that he can order around and floss his butt crack. I give him two years tops. She can ask herself if that's her preferred tradeoff. She knows he can't take care of himself. One thing is certain; my ultimate silence will definitely send a message in and of itself - that she can take her hateful, spiteful feelings to her grave and that I will not validate them or take responsibility for any of her failures that damaged me.
P.S. Wow....this was really long. Sorry pallies. I'll try to update more often.
So here's the deal. My Dad and stepmom returned the rosary beads, and my stepmom enclosed a lovely card thank you card with the sentiment "I love you, Vicki." Naturally I was very touched, and of course wept. I decided to stick my neck out (all the while respecting my father as a separate individual than my stepmom) and send him an email. I did the unthinkable: I CONFRONTED him. That's right. But it was a very, very diplomatic - and I thought - inoffensive confrontation.
Well, that backfired, and having read about confrontations, I was expecting that. He sent me a very nasty, abusive and accusatory email in return on behalf of both himself of him AND Vicki, blaming me for behaviors I exhibited when I was 15 years old - things that culminated from being raised by abusive and neglectful parents, things that neither one of them have ever taken responsibility for. As I was a child, I will not take responsibility for behaviors that they created in me and which they never took steps to resolve. I needed help at a very, very young age. And so, after having read this email, I then realized that Vicki's card was disingenuous.
After I wrote the above "confrontation" (which I'd hoped would come across as a polite request) - and within the same email - I offered to buy a round trip flight to come out and visit for a few days, at which time my Dad informed me that Vicki wasn't feeling well, that she had been in bed for days, etc., etc. This may or may not be true, but I found it a little peculiar since they had just had guests the previous week and had just spent several days showing them around town, participating in various activities. Vic, hand me the remote. Once again, she's playing the victim, pushing me out of his life and he's going along with it. He's using any excuse he can, blaming me for petty things like teenage growing pains (granted, it was more like smoking pot and running away from home, but big whoop, right)? And he got rid of me then. She pushed me out of his life, and I went to live in a group home. And that was fine by me. For the first time in my life I felt safe, I felt cared for and often felt loved. 15 ended up being a pretty damned good year.
Running away from home was like escaping from prison. It was EXHILARATING. And when I made the decision a week or so not to respond his initial email I posted about I had that same feeling.
I've been reading a bit about narcissistic sociopaths, how manipulative they are and the webs they weave. The parallels to my Dad just blows my mind. It's possible that they're both sociopaths. My stepmom never, ever expressed the least amount of compassion or love when I was growing up. She used to just stand aside when my Dad beat me. When I flew out to visit last year, I made the mistake of briefly locking eyes with her. Her eyes were like two black voids; soulless, cold, stony, insensitive. Maybe evil. I'll never forget it. It was like facing off with Nosferatu.
I think that when my Dad figures out that I'm not going to cave to his manipulation and apologize for being such a "rotten kid" that he's 1) going to become more abusive or 2) wait until she dies and bribe me back into his life with money, or make all kinds of excuses about how he was just so distraught about her dying or how he's so sorry for being uncommunicative or any number of tactics to weasel his way into my life.
Here's how I see it right now: It's unforgivable to me that he would allow her to push me out of his life again. I've always been second-rate. Always. Granted, she will die a bitter, jealous, hateful woman with a guilty conscience - or not, if she's a sociopath - but that is not enough solace to reestablish communications with him. He will never, ever hold himself accountable for the way he has treated me. If he does, it will be a trick. And THAT'S where it will get hard. THAT'S how narcissists keep reeling their victims back in over and over and over. They're masters of deception.
Wait until they go to the mailbox day after day and there are no more sunshiny cards from me, no more loving emails, no more encouragement, love or support of any kind. Then Vicki can start thinking about where my Dad is going to go next - to some other poor woman with low self-esteem that he can order around and floss his butt crack. I give him two years tops. She can ask herself if that's her preferred tradeoff. She knows he can't take care of himself. One thing is certain; my ultimate silence will definitely send a message in and of itself - that she can take her hateful, spiteful feelings to her grave and that I will not validate them or take responsibility for any of her failures that damaged me.
P.S. Wow....this was really long. Sorry pallies. I'll try to update more often.
Last edited by cece1960; 08-30-2016 at 07:51 AM.
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Wait until they go to the mailbox day after day and there are no more sunshiny cards from me, no more loving emails, no more encouragement, love or support of any kind. Then Vicki can start thinking about where my Dad is going to go next - to some other poor woman with low self-esteem that he can order around and floss his butt crack. I give him two years tops. She can ask herself if that's her preferred tradeoff. She knows he can't take care of himself. One thing is certain; my ultimate silence will definitely send a message in and of itself - that she can take her hateful, spiteful feelings to her grave and that I will not validate them or take responsibility for any of her failures that damaged me.
You have made yourself available to talk, now maybe start taking very good care of yourself and healing because the dialogue may or may not ever come. YOU are a good person, worthy of love and respect. Nobody else needs to validate that once you believe it in your heart. You are "enough" to validate yourself and your feelings and you are worth so much better than all this.
We cannot change one moment of our past, we cannot make anyone give what they don't have to give....but we CAN claim ownership of our own lives and make something wonderful out of it,
Don't get me wrong, talking this through here is therapeutic for you, as it would be to talk to a therapist. It's a good thing. My response is just that, a, hopefully, supportive response to your pain. Keep talking but maybe add something wonderful that you can do for yourself to help you along this path of recovery.
Cheering you on with my hugs.
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Originally Posted by Ann
YT, I can really feel your pain over all this and it's a sad situation for everyone concerned. The thing is, I feel really bad for you that no matter how hard to try...by doing something like the confrontation, or not doing something to let your silence speak...you can't play it out what "they" will do or not do. He will do this and then she will do that... none of this serves you well because in the end, they don't change, they don't "see the light". and that hurts a lot.
You have made yourself available to talk, now maybe start taking very good care of yourself and healing because the dialogue may or may not ever come. YOU are a good person, worthy of love and respect. Nobody else needs to validate that once you believe it in your heart. You are "enough" to validate yourself and your feelings and you are worth so much better than all this.
We cannot change one moment of our past, we cannot make anyone give what they don't have to give....but we CAN claim ownership of our own lives and make something wonderful out of it,
Don't get me wrong, talking this through here is therapeutic for you, as it would be to talk to a therapist. It's a good thing. My response is just that, a, hopefully, supportive response to your pain. Keep talking but maybe add something wonderful that you can do for yourself to help you along this path of recovery.
Cheering you on with my hugs.
You have made yourself available to talk, now maybe start taking very good care of yourself and healing because the dialogue may or may not ever come. YOU are a good person, worthy of love and respect. Nobody else needs to validate that once you believe it in your heart. You are "enough" to validate yourself and your feelings and you are worth so much better than all this.
We cannot change one moment of our past, we cannot make anyone give what they don't have to give....but we CAN claim ownership of our own lives and make something wonderful out of it,
Don't get me wrong, talking this through here is therapeutic for you, as it would be to talk to a therapist. It's a good thing. My response is just that, a, hopefully, supportive response to your pain. Keep talking but maybe add something wonderful that you can do for yourself to help you along this path of recovery.
Cheering you on with my hugs.
This morning I have been focused on REVENGE. I used to believe in astrology. My sun and 4 other planets are in Scorpio, yet as 3 different Myers-Briggs tests taken several years apart have indicated, I'm an INFJ (read: SUCKER). Lol! How does that rate??
Bipolar I, that's how that rates. Fun times. But all jokes aside - and even though the parallels really are uncanny - astrology is nonsense. I lean toward the latter (Myers-Briggs) as being an accurate and reliable personality questionnaire. As compassionate and forgiving to a default as I am, I've been a magnet for narcissists and sociopaths all my life and he won't be the first one I've kicked to the curb. It's never been an easy task though, and he is my Dad. It's still difficult to come to grips with who he is. Very, very difficult. And I'll always wonder how and if he will be different with her gone. It's going to torment me when she dies and he's all alone, which will probably be before the holidays. I don't want him to suffer alone. He'll never seek professional help, and since he told me my stepmom had cancer in January of 2015, he has expressed no emotions about it to me. Maybe he'll blow his brains out. I can't be with him physically. . . .his reactions have always been unpredictable. Maybe he'll blow my brains out. But then, he's a coward and prison isn't his gig. He'll find another wife to floss his butt rather than stoop to pick up the soap.
I am in between therapists, by the way. My previous therapist has moved to a different division within my current provider's company and I am meeting with a new one on the 18th. Fortunately I had only one session with my previous therapist, therefore we hadn't established a long-term relationship so there are no separation anxiety issues there. Anger management group went swimmingly last night. I'll probably request a different kind of weekly group session from my new therapist that is more geared toward my current issues.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6xU_CPE310
Hi Yours Truly, watch this, it is funny but has a real message that took me a while to learn. I have experienced similar to you and things started to become clear that knowing what I was dealing with, with them, I then realised I had work to do on me with the co-dependency ( I only realised that this is what I am recently, a ahah moment you could say, it changed the landscape in a good way. I wanted to stop giving my power away. I see you are very loving and caring, have a look into this co-dependency I think it could help. You can not change them but you can arm yourself with knowledge and boundaries. Maybe watch this video every time you find yourself wavering. Hugs to you dear one.
Hi Yours Truly, watch this, it is funny but has a real message that took me a while to learn. I have experienced similar to you and things started to become clear that knowing what I was dealing with, with them, I then realised I had work to do on me with the co-dependency ( I only realised that this is what I am recently, a ahah moment you could say, it changed the landscape in a good way. I wanted to stop giving my power away. I see you are very loving and caring, have a look into this co-dependency I think it could help. You can not change them but you can arm yourself with knowledge and boundaries. Maybe watch this video every time you find yourself wavering. Hugs to you dear one.
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Originally Posted by ring
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6xU_CPE310
Hi Yours Truly, watch this, it is funny but has a real message that took me a while to learn. I have experienced similar to you and things started to become clear that knowing what I was dealing with, with them, I then realised I had work to do on me with the co-dependency ( I only realised that this is what I am recently, a ahah moment you could say, it changed the landscape in a good way. I wanted to stop giving my power away. I see you are very loving and caring, have a look into this co-dependency I think it could help. You can not change them but you can arm yourself with knowledge and boundaries. Maybe watch this video every time you find yourself wavering. Hugs to you dear one.
Hi Yours Truly, watch this, it is funny but has a real message that took me a while to learn. I have experienced similar to you and things started to become clear that knowing what I was dealing with, with them, I then realised I had work to do on me with the co-dependency ( I only realised that this is what I am recently, a ahah moment you could say, it changed the landscape in a good way. I wanted to stop giving my power away. I see you are very loving and caring, have a look into this co-dependency I think it could help. You can not change them but you can arm yourself with knowledge and boundaries. Maybe watch this video every time you find yourself wavering. Hugs to you dear one.
When I came here tonight I was going to say that as I find myself needing to detach from the situation it gets more and more difficult for me to come here to post. Also, I am a very private person by nature. The video was uncomplicated, to the point and didn't leave me in a puddle of tears. I will create a YouTube folder titled Narcissistic Sociopaths and add that video right away. I thank you very much for planting the idea. I hadn't yet considered videos - only books. But as is customary for me, I think too much, and this is what I came to post from a philosophical standpoint:
Say he is a sociopath. If he is - and after much reading and searching through my memory archives I am quite certain that he is - then like any other mental illness, he can't help it, and even worse, he most likely won't seek help. But GOD would know that he was mentally ill and FORGIVE him. From an ethical atheist's humane perspective, it would render him forgiveness from an earthly standpoint as well. It's easy to sympathize with the unmedicated, homeless, barefoot schizophrenic crossing the street in the cold, pouring rain, but why not the sociopath? Diagnosing mental illness is still in its infancy. I went from one psychiatrist directly to another who have COMPLETELY different treatment perspectives. Polar opposites. Our prisons our full of mentally ill individuals due to these conflicting opinions and lack of definitive diagnoses. So in our courtrooms, sociopaths are just remorseless criminals - biology, heredity and social influence rarely being taken into serious consideration. We haven't DEVELOPED the technology to definitively determine an individual's psychiatric diagnosis/diagnoses. So that's a point I think is worth considering. It boils down to a moral and ethical dilemma when it comes down to deciding what to do with these folks, and really, that should be all the answer the court systems need. I mean, really - what "normal" person wakes up with a smile on their face and says "I'm going to go knock off Grandma today."
I realize that sociopaths are unable to empathize. They can be taught that other people have feelings and learn right from wrong from an intellectual perspective and we can learn boundaries, but do they really work? Maybe they only work to fend off the sociopaths who do seek help, but those who seek help usually only do it when they become institutionalized.
I ought to just write the old man an email, tell him I love him, that I'll leave the light on for him and leave it at that. With no expectations that he'll ever meet me halfway. . . .because most likely he won't. I won't act on that email right away, though; he hasn't been specific about how long she has left - only that it could be weeks or months. And I presume that the fact that there have been no updates on her condition is intended to manipulate me into feeling guilty as well. Every day I'm concerned about how she is doing. I do care. And he is well aware of that.
I may never send that email. I know what is going on here. I know what both his and her m.o. is - that being that she is pushing me out of his life again and he is allowing it. I'm adamant about that and I just can't get past it. When they met 40 years ago I became history. But I never was spiteful or jealous of her. . . .not ever. I really wanted and tried so desperately to love her, and up until recent events I still did. She just never wanted me around. Ultimately she took my Dad away from me and he allowed it to happen. So I'm angry with both of them. And that just might not be the right mentality.
Revenge wasn't so much the dominating emotion of the day today. It was guilt. I thought about her dying, I thought about her card (as insincere as I suspected it was), and I thought all of the communications I have initiated - all of them - were sincere and full of love, right up until the end when all my Dad did was spew back hate. I ask myself that if I still have more to give, is it right to withhold it just because I'm jaded by his (and her) recent behavior? Is it selfish? Are my intentions to disconnect out of spite or to preserve my own mental health? Surely it's both. I'm not really expecting answers here; writing the questions just kind of puts them front and center so they don't get lost in the shuffle with all the other questions swirling through my brain, and hopefully I'll gain some perspective.
She's dying. That's incredibly deep. For all I know they could be huddled on the floor together in the fetal position just sobbing uncontrollably. All they have is one another. It's so tragic. But they just won't let anyone else in.
There's more, but it would require another marathon post so I'll save it for another time.
Love to all.
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Ring, last night when I posted that I was wondering if boundaries really work with these folks it led me to think more about your video. At the end, it shows the one neighbor as being unable to meet the other neighbor halfway. As we all know, narcissists and sociopaths are crafty. They might just meet you halfway and then some, but it will only be to their benefit. The kicker is that they will trick you into thinking it's all for you and succeed. So that's why I'm wondering if boundaries really work with these folks. Boundaries might work with someone who's addicted to alcohol or drugs and/or some other co-morbid disorder, but just a plain narcissist or sociopath? I have never implemented those strategies but it would seem awfully fatiguing (not to mention pointless).
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Originally Posted by D122y
Back to you....I would not keep a light on for my Dad, but I might turn it on if he shows up. That will be up to you.
I know that I agreed with your statement previously. I have thought about it over and over and I have wavered a lot.
If it were any other time in life I would undoubtedly still agree, but I think at the end of the day I would regret it forever if I deserted him at a time like this.
Given the opportunity to support him, there are ramifications to consider and I haven't sorted through those. Time for a cost/benefit analysis. I haven't done one of those in so long. I can arbitrarily assume that the short-term benefits will be rewarding to both of us but the long-term ones will not.
And, there's some likelihood that he has already deserted me. He has done it several times previously and seemingly without conscience. As I'm not a mind reader, I'm in a jam. He probably knows it, too.
He's such a dick.
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Originally Posted by Yours Truly
So that's why I'm wondering if boundaries really work with these folks. Boundaries might work with someone who's addicted to alcohol or drugs and/or some other co-morbid disorder, but just a plain narcissist or sociopath? I have never implemented those strategies but it would seem awfully fatiguing (not to mention pointless).
For example, when my addicted son lived at home here are a couple of boundaries I had...
I will not allow drugs in my home. Should I suspect that there are drugs there will be no privacy issues, it's my home and I will search them out. Should I find drugs in my home, the person bringing them there must leave immediately. Clothes and belongings will be on the front porch within an hour.
The above is about me and what I will tolerate or not, and the consequence for anyone stepping on that boundary. It was not negotiable. I told my son that should he cross this boundary I would love him just as much when he was living any place else.
Another that I had was...
I will not tolerate being spoken to in anger or disrespectfully. Should a conversation escalate and become heated and nasty, that conversation is over right then and right there. If that happens I will either ask the offending person to leave or I will remove myself from the room, the home, or wherever I am when it happens. If it's an important conversation, it may continue some other time when tempers have cooled, but I will choose the time and place.
Nobody can argue with me or debate these boundaries, they are MINE, they are about ME and what I will allow in my life.
It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees or doesn't agree, if they cannot respect my boundaries, they are not allowed in my home/space/life.
I no longer worry about changing anyone else. Nor do I worry about them intruding disrespectfully in my life. The short version is "love me or leave me". I don't do conflict, I don't raise my voice in anger, I live my life in peace and really really like it that way.
Hope this helps.
Hugs
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I just decided that I was not going to give my self worth and power away to anyone and that meant working out my own boundaries. And I started focussing on self coupling. I read and studied and reviewed information until I found what worked for me. This took a while and it was tough at first, but I pushed through. I suppose you can have limited contact, no contact but the most important thing is once you have established something is not quite right you put boundaries in place to protect yourself. I only have one life and I am not going to waste it trying to seek validation and approval from people who unfortunately are sick and set in there ways such as my family. Hugs to you.
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Originally Posted by Ann
YoursTruly, boundaries are about us, not them. It's about what we will or will not allow in our lives and how we will handle a situation that pushes these boundaries. They aren't rules, rules are quite different.
For example, when my addicted son lived at home here are a couple of boundaries I had...
I will not allow drugs in my home. Should I suspect that there are drugs there will be no privacy issues, it's my home and I will search them out. Should I find drugs in my home, the person bringing them there must leave immediately. Clothes and belongings will be on the front porch within an hour.
The above is about me and what I will tolerate or not, and the consequence for anyone stepping on that boundary. It was not negotiable. I told my son that should he cross this boundary I would love him just as much when he was living any place else.
Another that I had was...
I will not tolerate being spoken to in anger or disrespectfully. Should a conversation escalate and become heated and nasty, that conversation is over right then and right there. If that happens I will either ask the offending person to leave or I will remove myself from the room, the home, or wherever I am when it happens. If it's an important conversation, it may continue some other time when tempers have cooled, but I will choose the time and place.
Nobody can argue with me or debate these boundaries, they are MINE, they are about ME and what I will allow in my life.
It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees or doesn't agree, if they cannot respect my boundaries, they are not allowed in my home/space/life.
I no longer worry about changing anyone else. Nor do I worry about them intruding disrespectfully in my life. The short version is "love me or leave me". I don't do conflict, I don't raise my voice in anger, I live my life in peace and really really like it that way.
Hope this helps.
Hugs
For example, when my addicted son lived at home here are a couple of boundaries I had...
I will not allow drugs in my home. Should I suspect that there are drugs there will be no privacy issues, it's my home and I will search them out. Should I find drugs in my home, the person bringing them there must leave immediately. Clothes and belongings will be on the front porch within an hour.
The above is about me and what I will tolerate or not, and the consequence for anyone stepping on that boundary. It was not negotiable. I told my son that should he cross this boundary I would love him just as much when he was living any place else.
Another that I had was...
I will not tolerate being spoken to in anger or disrespectfully. Should a conversation escalate and become heated and nasty, that conversation is over right then and right there. If that happens I will either ask the offending person to leave or I will remove myself from the room, the home, or wherever I am when it happens. If it's an important conversation, it may continue some other time when tempers have cooled, but I will choose the time and place.
Nobody can argue with me or debate these boundaries, they are MINE, they are about ME and what I will allow in my life.
It doesn't matter if anyone else agrees or doesn't agree, if they cannot respect my boundaries, they are not allowed in my home/space/life.
I no longer worry about changing anyone else. Nor do I worry about them intruding disrespectfully in my life. The short version is "love me or leave me". I don't do conflict, I don't raise my voice in anger, I live my life in peace and really really like it that way.
Hope this helps.
Hugs
I am going to assimilate what you wrote and reply in greater detail later. It took a long time for you to think about and type all of that out and I appreciate it.
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Originally Posted by ring
I just decided that I was not going to give my self worth and power away to anyone and that meant working out my own boundaries. And I started focussing on self coupling. I read and studied and reviewed information until I found what worked for me. This took a while and it was tough at first, but I pushed through. I suppose you can have limited contact, no contact but the most important thing is once you have established something is not quite right you put boundaries in place to protect yourself. I only have one life and I am not going to waste it trying to seek validation and approval from people who unfortunately are sick and set in there ways such as my family. Hugs to you.
The book appears to be geared more toward dealing with narcissistic parents one chooses to keep as part of his or her life. So far I have only read chapter 4. But I'll discuss more about the book later.
Thanks so much for your post. Yes, lots of studying and reviewing. I wonder what you mean by "self coupling"? Something else for me to research.
;-)
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Posts: 94
I was just thinking that I can't even set boundaries with my dog (his name is Buggy). I'm such a sucker for an adorable little face. Short of relieving himself in the house, he gets and does whatever else he wants. Very demanding and insecure - even downright pushy and ROOD! He becomes belligerent when my boyfriend and I are within 3 feet of one another. It's all very cute of course, but it's naughty behavior nonetheless and I do very little to dissuade it.
When Buggy is across the room and we are looking at one another, I often recite this poem to him:
"I see the Bug and the Bug sees me,
I love the Bug and the Bug loves me."
How codie is that? Lol! I just don't know what I would do without him.
Here's a photo of him with his meatloaf and gravy birthday cake:
When Buggy is across the room and we are looking at one another, I often recite this poem to him:
"I see the Bug and the Bug sees me,
I love the Bug and the Bug loves me."
How codie is that? Lol! I just don't know what I would do without him.
Here's a photo of him with his meatloaf and gravy birthday cake:
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Originally Posted by Yours Truly
Ann, thank you for your long and thoughtful post. I hope your son is healthy and thriving.
Bug is really cute, I'd be a sucker for those eyes too.
Hugs
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 574
Ann has written pretty much everything I would have ! and just so perfectly
My biggest feeling here is the boundaries thing - when coupled with vengeful thoughts - they are useless. We have all dabbled with them in the wrong ways which is what taught us how to lay them down FOR us not others. It's a blessed thing to take back our own control - of ourselves, and our feelings. To put a boundary up that protects our mind, body and heart.
You need to retrain people around you, to show them who you are and what your values are. Whether it's thru separation, no communication, no fighting, etc .... it causes us to stay focused on US. On what WE need. You no longer need to dance around your dad or step mom. They have chosen their path. It's terribly painful but being able to build your own life autonomous from them - will build your self esteem and personal strength. Not everyone is our lives will be there forever and some are just there for lessons. I'm not sure he can ever give you what you need, but you can hold your head high and not subject yourself to the continued rejection. Parent or not, you have done your duty.
My dad taught us when we were young: don't chase anyone or anything.
There was a teeny dog at my grandmas house, the dog would not come to any of us whom were more than anxious to pet and hold him. He hid under the sofa. My dad wasn't a Grinch but he wasn't overtly friendly towards animals. When the dog would come out, it would sit at his feet. If we made any move towards the dog, it retreated to the underbelly of the sofa once again. It was the dog's decision and personality. We had no choice but to let him have his peace.
May not be a great comparison, but it is always there when I begin to chase something that may not be meant for me.
Hugs to you as you grow,
Blessings
JOIE
My biggest feeling here is the boundaries thing - when coupled with vengeful thoughts - they are useless. We have all dabbled with them in the wrong ways which is what taught us how to lay them down FOR us not others. It's a blessed thing to take back our own control - of ourselves, and our feelings. To put a boundary up that protects our mind, body and heart.
You need to retrain people around you, to show them who you are and what your values are. Whether it's thru separation, no communication, no fighting, etc .... it causes us to stay focused on US. On what WE need. You no longer need to dance around your dad or step mom. They have chosen their path. It's terribly painful but being able to build your own life autonomous from them - will build your self esteem and personal strength. Not everyone is our lives will be there forever and some are just there for lessons. I'm not sure he can ever give you what you need, but you can hold your head high and not subject yourself to the continued rejection. Parent or not, you have done your duty.
My dad taught us when we were young: don't chase anyone or anything.
There was a teeny dog at my grandmas house, the dog would not come to any of us whom were more than anxious to pet and hold him. He hid under the sofa. My dad wasn't a Grinch but he wasn't overtly friendly towards animals. When the dog would come out, it would sit at his feet. If we made any move towards the dog, it retreated to the underbelly of the sofa once again. It was the dog's decision and personality. We had no choice but to let him have his peace.
May not be a great comparison, but it is always there when I begin to chase something that may not be meant for me.
Hugs to you as you grow,
Blessings
JOIE
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by Ann
He has been missing, lost in his addiction somewhere for over 10 years now, Yours Truly. Each morning I ask God to do for him what I cannot and then I live my day in faith that He will.
Bug is really cute, I'd be a sucker for those eyes too.
Hugs
Bug is really cute, I'd be a sucker for those eyes too.
Hugs
my friend. :-)
Thanks for the compliments about the Bug. He's a sweetheart.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
Originally Posted by JOIE12
Ann has written pretty much everything I would have ! and just so perfectly
My biggest feeling here is the boundaries thing - when coupled with vengeful thoughts - they are useless. We have all dabbled with them in the wrong ways which is what taught us how to lay them down FOR us not others. It's a blessed thing to take back our own control - of ourselves, and our feelings. To put a boundary up that protects our mind, body and heart.
You need to retrain people around you, to show them who you are and what your values are. Whether it's thru separation, no communication, no fighting, etc .... it causes us to stay focused on US. On what WE need. You no longer need to dance around your dad or step mom. They have chosen their path. It's terribly painful but being able to build your own life autonomous from them - will build your self esteem and personal strength. Not everyone is our lives will be there forever and some are just there for lessons. I'm not sure he can ever give you what you need, but you can hold your head high and not subject yourself to the continued rejection. Parent or not, you have done your duty.
My dad taught us when we were young: don't chase anyone or anything.
There was a teeny dog at my grandmas house, the dog would not come to any of us whom were more than anxious to pet and hold him. He hid under the sofa. My dad wasn't a Grinch but he wasn't overtly friendly towards animals. When the dog would come out, it would sit at his feet. If we made any move towards the dog, it retreated to the underbelly of the sofa once again. It was the dog's decision and personality. We had no choice but to let him have his peace.
May not be a great comparison, but it is always there when I begin to chase something that may not be meant for me.
Hugs to you as you grow,
Blessings
JOIE
My biggest feeling here is the boundaries thing - when coupled with vengeful thoughts - they are useless. We have all dabbled with them in the wrong ways which is what taught us how to lay them down FOR us not others. It's a blessed thing to take back our own control - of ourselves, and our feelings. To put a boundary up that protects our mind, body and heart.
You need to retrain people around you, to show them who you are and what your values are. Whether it's thru separation, no communication, no fighting, etc .... it causes us to stay focused on US. On what WE need. You no longer need to dance around your dad or step mom. They have chosen their path. It's terribly painful but being able to build your own life autonomous from them - will build your self esteem and personal strength. Not everyone is our lives will be there forever and some are just there for lessons. I'm not sure he can ever give you what you need, but you can hold your head high and not subject yourself to the continued rejection. Parent or not, you have done your duty.
My dad taught us when we were young: don't chase anyone or anything.
There was a teeny dog at my grandmas house, the dog would not come to any of us whom were more than anxious to pet and hold him. He hid under the sofa. My dad wasn't a Grinch but he wasn't overtly friendly towards animals. When the dog would come out, it would sit at his feet. If we made any move towards the dog, it retreated to the underbelly of the sofa once again. It was the dog's decision and personality. We had no choice but to let him have his peace.
May not be a great comparison, but it is always there when I begin to chase something that may not be meant for me.
Hugs to you as you grow,
Blessings
JOIE
I can assure you that I'm not chasing anything, though. Those days are long gone. Hope, yes. Chasing, no. I would like to support him, but I would prefer to do it from a position of detachment. I'm mourning more than anything else. And angry. As I retreat further back into the newly discovered acceptance I had begun to enjoy before he contacted me, hope is fading as just as the life end of a candle flame.
What were those 5 stages of grief? It's from that Kubler-Ross book. I know they're rough guidelines, but it might also be something else worth researching. I know I have a digital copy on one of my devices somewhere.
Thanks very much again for your post. I value your insights and relate to them strongly.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 94
It has been important to me to differentiate between narcissism and sociopathy because it will determine whether it is worth my while to continue an ongoing relationship with my Dad whether he feigns neediness or not.
So this morning before I replied to this morning’s posts I was vacillating and back to being angry again. I guess that should come as no surprise.
I found a valuable article at PsychCentral that outlines some of the differences between three personality disorder types and their capacity for guilt and empathy. Here is a screenshot:
Then I went to Wikipedia and read the black and white descriptions and DSM-5 / ICD-10 criteria for both narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders and he fit both. The one thing that stood out to me in the PsychCentral article about sociopaths is that they view – and treat – the people in their lives as chess pieces. This is clearly evident with the situation that both myself and my stepmom are in (and it’s probably no coincidence that the game of chess has been one of his lifelong pastimes).
It’s worth mentioning that my Dad belongs to a motorcycle “club” (and not the charitable kind). I’m not sure I would characterize them as a gang, but if not then they definitely mask themselves as ruffians and just bust beer bottles over other people’s heads once in a while. I think the older members just kind of hang out and and pass on their BS pseudo-thuggery wisdom to the younger ones (although as none of them are doing life, they must have mastered something). As he stays out of jail, I think the whole getup is just a toughguy veneer for my Dad. He’s a coward and I’ve never known him to take on anything bigger than himself. It’s also worth noting that he managed to retire from General Motors with a pretty impeccable track record. And see – that’s one of the things that makes me wonder if he’s merely narcissistic, but there ARE higher functioning sociopaths and I think it’s more of a sliding scale.
In one recent email – after having been warned several times not to discuss family under the threat of abandonment – I mentioned some other family difficulties and even though I hadn’t disclosed specific details or even named anyone specifically, he bluntly suggested cutting them all off forever. I wondered if he was trying to get a reaction or if he was serious, but I think he was serious because that is precisely what he has done.
He and my brother had a falling out a few years ago and have had no contact since that time. When my Dad and I spoke about it face-to-face during our visit last year, my Dad’s affect was very flat and he expressed no regrets, guilt, empathy, or desire to reconnect whatsoever. My poor brother struggles with issues much deeper and much more severe than mine and it saddens me very deeply that he might be a goner. At least he is aware of his issues, so perhaps there is hope. He is just a complete mess though. His issues stem from an inability to escape from his memories; in other words, imprisonment, where mine stem from detachment through forgiveness. There is a fine line between detachment / forgiveness and denial though. I wonder if what I thought was forgiveness was really denial, because I always readily accepted blame up until very recently (according to my parents, their poor behavior and neglect was because I was just a “bad kid”). When my Dad contacted me and informed me that my stepmom had cancer, I had JUST reached a place in my mind of true acceptance of his absence and freedom from responsibility for his actions. It took 30 years to get there. Fortunately, I don’t hold myself accountable for his current actions, not intellectually or emotionally. I’m struggling with my conscience as far as making myself available to support him through this crisis. Maybe Joie was right when she said that I have done my duty. I hope he never contacts me again.
Now then, where was I last night? I guess I was talking about some book I borrowed from the library. It’s rather enabling and often promotes dramatic passivity, such as in this passage:
“For example, let’s suppose that your parent has made a demeaning comment about your appearance, and you feel yourself becoming angry. Instead of staying with the anger and firing back at the parent or letting the anger move you to shame for disappointing the parent, it is at this point where you can mentally say that you don’t want to act out of anger. You are going to choose to push the anger away for the moment, just act out of annoyance (a milder form of anger), and not let your parent know that the comment really angered you. So, you decide to make a noncommittal response, such as “Really? I’ll need to pay better attention next time.” You can also ignore the comment, change the topic, or make a pleasant comment about the parent’s appearance.”
Nah.
So this morning before I replied to this morning’s posts I was vacillating and back to being angry again. I guess that should come as no surprise.
I found a valuable article at PsychCentral that outlines some of the differences between three personality disorder types and their capacity for guilt and empathy. Here is a screenshot:
Then I went to Wikipedia and read the black and white descriptions and DSM-5 / ICD-10 criteria for both narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders and he fit both. The one thing that stood out to me in the PsychCentral article about sociopaths is that they view – and treat – the people in their lives as chess pieces. This is clearly evident with the situation that both myself and my stepmom are in (and it’s probably no coincidence that the game of chess has been one of his lifelong pastimes).
It’s worth mentioning that my Dad belongs to a motorcycle “club” (and not the charitable kind). I’m not sure I would characterize them as a gang, but if not then they definitely mask themselves as ruffians and just bust beer bottles over other people’s heads once in a while. I think the older members just kind of hang out and and pass on their BS pseudo-thuggery wisdom to the younger ones (although as none of them are doing life, they must have mastered something). As he stays out of jail, I think the whole getup is just a toughguy veneer for my Dad. He’s a coward and I’ve never known him to take on anything bigger than himself. It’s also worth noting that he managed to retire from General Motors with a pretty impeccable track record. And see – that’s one of the things that makes me wonder if he’s merely narcissistic, but there ARE higher functioning sociopaths and I think it’s more of a sliding scale.
In one recent email – after having been warned several times not to discuss family under the threat of abandonment – I mentioned some other family difficulties and even though I hadn’t disclosed specific details or even named anyone specifically, he bluntly suggested cutting them all off forever. I wondered if he was trying to get a reaction or if he was serious, but I think he was serious because that is precisely what he has done.
He and my brother had a falling out a few years ago and have had no contact since that time. When my Dad and I spoke about it face-to-face during our visit last year, my Dad’s affect was very flat and he expressed no regrets, guilt, empathy, or desire to reconnect whatsoever. My poor brother struggles with issues much deeper and much more severe than mine and it saddens me very deeply that he might be a goner. At least he is aware of his issues, so perhaps there is hope. He is just a complete mess though. His issues stem from an inability to escape from his memories; in other words, imprisonment, where mine stem from detachment through forgiveness. There is a fine line between detachment / forgiveness and denial though. I wonder if what I thought was forgiveness was really denial, because I always readily accepted blame up until very recently (according to my parents, their poor behavior and neglect was because I was just a “bad kid”). When my Dad contacted me and informed me that my stepmom had cancer, I had JUST reached a place in my mind of true acceptance of his absence and freedom from responsibility for his actions. It took 30 years to get there. Fortunately, I don’t hold myself accountable for his current actions, not intellectually or emotionally. I’m struggling with my conscience as far as making myself available to support him through this crisis. Maybe Joie was right when she said that I have done my duty. I hope he never contacts me again.
Now then, where was I last night? I guess I was talking about some book I borrowed from the library. It’s rather enabling and often promotes dramatic passivity, such as in this passage:
“For example, let’s suppose that your parent has made a demeaning comment about your appearance, and you feel yourself becoming angry. Instead of staying with the anger and firing back at the parent or letting the anger move you to shame for disappointing the parent, it is at this point where you can mentally say that you don’t want to act out of anger. You are going to choose to push the anger away for the moment, just act out of annoyance (a milder form of anger), and not let your parent know that the comment really angered you. So, you decide to make a noncommittal response, such as “Really? I’ll need to pay better attention next time.” You can also ignore the comment, change the topic, or make a pleasant comment about the parent’s appearance.”
Nah.
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