Codependency vs. something else?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 19
Codependency vs. something else?
After reading a lot about codependency and admitting I have many of the qualifying symptoms, I can't find within myself that I have low self-esteem or hate myself.
I do not like some of my actions/reactions, or for staying in such a toxic relationship, but I feel pretty good about myself as a person, and have a hopeful & successful future. I've attempted to identify some reasons as to why I stayed with him - abandonment, being diagnosed with a permanent disease immediately preceeding finding out about my qualifier using/cheating, and my father's death. So I guess my question is, does codependency require low self-esteem or could this be something else?
Also, I find it ironic how people can react to the same situations so differently. The same situations can happen to different people, yet some fall into addiction while others become codependent.
Maybe those are all very naive views and it really doesn't work that way. But it was just a couple of thoughts that crossed my mind today and I wanted to express them.
I do not like some of my actions/reactions, or for staying in such a toxic relationship, but I feel pretty good about myself as a person, and have a hopeful & successful future. I've attempted to identify some reasons as to why I stayed with him - abandonment, being diagnosed with a permanent disease immediately preceeding finding out about my qualifier using/cheating, and my father's death. So I guess my question is, does codependency require low self-esteem or could this be something else?
Also, I find it ironic how people can react to the same situations so differently. The same situations can happen to different people, yet some fall into addiction while others become codependent.
Maybe those are all very naive views and it really doesn't work that way. But it was just a couple of thoughts that crossed my mind today and I wanted to express them.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Just as there are many causes of codependency, there are also many symptoms and none of us have them all.
This is from Melody Beattie's Codependent No More book, she is the best codependency writer I have ever found. It is a long list but well worth the read..
This is from Melody Beattie's Codependent No More book, she is the best codependency writer I have ever found. It is a long list but well worth the read..
Excerpted from Codependent No More: How to Stop Controlling Others and Start Caring for Yourself
Characteristics of Codependent People
by Melody Beattie
Caretaking: Codependents may:
think and feel responsible for other people for other people's feelings, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.
feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem.
feel compelled almost forced to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.
feel angry when their help isn't effective.
anticipate other people's needs.
wonder why others don't do the same for them.
find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
try to please others instead of themselves.
find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves.
feel safest when giving.
feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them.
feel sad because the spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
find themselves attracted to needy people.
find needy people attracted to them.
feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
overcommit themselves.
feel harried and pressured.
believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
blame others for the spot the codependents are in.
say other people make the codependents feel the way they do.
believe other people are making them crazy.
feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics.
Low Self-Worth: Codependents tend to:
come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families.
deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional.
blame themselves for everything.
pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel , look, act, and behave.
get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents something codependents regularly do to themselves.
reject compliments or praise.
get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation).
feel different than the rest of the world.
think they're not quite good enough.
feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves.
feel rejection.
take things personally.
have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism.
feel like victims.
tell themselves they can't do anything right.
be afraid of making mistakes.
wonder why they have a tough time making decisions.
expect themselves to do everything perfectly.
wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction.
have a lot of "shoulds."
feel a lot of guilt.
feel ashamed of who they are.
think their lives aren't worth living.
try to help other people live their lives instead.
artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others.
get strong feelings of low self-worth embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems.
wish good things would happen to them.
believe good things never will happen.
wish other people would like and love them.
believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them.
try to prove they're good enough for other people.
settle for being needed.
Repression: Many codependents:
push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt.
become afraid to let themselves be who they are.
appear rigid and controlled.
Obsession: Codependents tend to:
feel terribly anxious about problems and people.
worry about the silliest things.
think and talk a lot about other people.
lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior.
worry.
never find answers.
check on people.
try to catch people in acts of misbehavior.
feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems.
abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something.
focus all their energy on other people and problems.
wonder why they never have any energy.
wonder why they can't get things done.
Controlling: Many codependents:
have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment.
become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally.
don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control.
think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave.
try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination.
eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger.
get frustrated and angry.
feel controlled by events and people.
Denial: Codependents tend to:
ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening.
pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are.
tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
stay busy so they don't have to think about things.
get confused.
get depressed or sick.
go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
became workaholics.
spend money compulsively.
overeat.
pretend those things aren't happening, either.
watch problems get worse.
believe lies.
lie to themselves.
wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.
Dependency: Many codependents:
don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves.
look for happiness outside themselves.
latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness.
feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think provides their happiness.
didn't feel love and approval from their parents.
don't love themselves.
believe other people can't or don't love them.
desperately seek love and approval.
often seek love from people incapable of loving.
believe other people are never there for them.
equate love with pain.
feel they need people more than they want them.
try to prove they're good enough to be loved.
don't take time to see if other people are good for them.
worry whether other people love or like them.
don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people.
center their lives around other people.
look to relationships to provide all their good feelings.
lose interest in their own lives when they love.
worry other people will leave them.
don't believe they can take care of themselves.
stay in relationships that don't work.
tolerate abuse to keep people loving them.
feel trapped in relationships.
leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either.
wonder if they will ever find love.
Poor Communication: Codependents frequently:
blame
threaten.
coerce.
beg.
bribe.
advise.
don't say what they mean.
don't mean what they say.
don't know what they mean.
don't take themselves seriously.
think other people don't take the codependents seriously.
take themselves too seriously.
ask for what they want and need indirectly--sighing, for example
find it difficult to get to the point.
aren't sure what the point is.
gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
try to say what they think will please people.
try to say what they think will provoke people.
try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do.
eliminate the word "no" from their vocabulary
talk too much.
talk about other people.
avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts.
say everything is their fault.
say nothing is their fault.
believe their opinions don't matter.
wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions.
lie to protect and cover up for people they love.
lie to protect themselves.
have a difficult time asserting their rights.
have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately.
think most of what they have to say is unimportant.
begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways.
apologize for bothering people.
Weak Boundaries: Codependents frequently:
say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they never would.
let others hurt them.
keep letting people hurt them.
wonder why they hurt so badly.
complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
finally get angry.
become totally intolerant.
Lack Of Trust: Codependents:
don't trust themselves.
don't trust their feelings.
don't trust their decisions.
don't trust other people.
try to trust untrustworthy people.
think God has abandoned them.
lose faith and trust in God.
Anger: Many codependents:
feel very scared, hurt, and angry.
live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry.
are afraid of their own anger.
are frightened of other people's anger.
think people will go away if anger enters the picture.
think other people make them feel angry.
are afraid to make other people feel anger.
feel controlled by other people's anger.
repress their angry feelings.
cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts.
punish other people for making the codependents angry.
have been shamed for feeling angry.
place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry.
feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness.
feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings.
wonder if they'll ever not be angry.
Sex Problems: Some codependents:
are caretakers in the bedroom.
have sex when they don't want to.
have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved.
try to have sex when they're angry or hurt.
refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner.
are afraid of losing control.
have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed.
withdraw emotionally from their partner.
feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
don't talk about it.
force themselves to have sex, anyway.
reduce sex to a technical act.
wonder why they don't enjoy sex.
lose interest in sex.
make up reasons to abstain.
wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings.
have strong sexual fantasies about other people.
consider or have an extramarital affair.
Miscellaneous: Codependents tend to:
be extremely responsible.
be extremely irresponsible.
become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice.
find it difficult to feel close to people.
find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous.
have an overall passive response to codependency--crying, hurt, helplessness.
have and overall aggressive response to codependency--violence, anger, dominance.
combine passive and aggressive responses.
vacillate in decisions and emotions.
laugh when they feel like crying.
stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
be confused about the nature of the problem.
cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough.
wonder why the problem doesn't go away.
Progressive: In the later stages of codependency, codependents may:
feel lethargic.
feel depressed.
become withdrawn and isolated.
experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure.
abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities.
feel hopeless.
begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in.
think about suicide.
become violent.
become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill.
experience an eating disorder (over- or undereating).
become addicted to alcohol and other drugs.
The preceding checklist is long but not all-inclusive. Like other people, codependents do, feel, and think many things. There are not a certain number of traits that guarantees whether a person is or isn't codependent. Each person is different; each person has his or her way of doing things. I'm just trying to paint a picture. The interpretation, or decision, is up to you. What's most important is that you first identify behaviors or areas that cause you problems, and then decide what you want to do.
Characteristics of Codependent People
by Melody Beattie
Caretaking: Codependents may:
think and feel responsible for other people for other people's feelings, actions, choices, wants, needs, well-being, lack of well-being, and ultimate destiny.
feel anxiety, pity, and guilt when other people have a problem.
feel compelled almost forced to help that person solve the problem, such as offering unwanted advice, giving a rapid-fire series of suggestions, or fixing feelings.
feel angry when their help isn't effective.
anticipate other people's needs.
wonder why others don't do the same for them.
find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
not know what they want and need or, if they do, tell themselves what they want and need is not important.
try to please others instead of themselves.
find it easier to feel and express anger about injustices done to others, rather than injustices done to themselves.
feel safest when giving.
feel insecure and guilty when somebody gives to them.
feel sad because the spend their whole lives giving to other people and nobody gives to them.
find themselves attracted to needy people.
find needy people attracted to them.
feel bored, empty, and worthless if they don't have a crisis in their lives, a problem to solve, or someone to help.
abandon their routine to respond to or do something for somebody else.
overcommit themselves.
feel harried and pressured.
believe deep inside other people are somehow responsible for them.
blame others for the spot the codependents are in.
say other people make the codependents feel the way they do.
believe other people are making them crazy.
feel angry, victimized, unappreciated, and used.
find other people become impatient or angry with them for all the preceding characteristics.
Low Self-Worth: Codependents tend to:
come from troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional families.
deny their family was troubled, repressed, or dysfunctional.
blame themselves for everything.
pick on themselves for everything, including the way they think, feel , look, act, and behave.
get angry, defensive, self-righteous, and indignant when others blame and criticize the codependents something codependents regularly do to themselves.
reject compliments or praise.
get depressed from a lack of compliments and praise (stroke deprivation).
feel different than the rest of the world.
think they're not quite good enough.
feel guilty about spending money on themselves or doing unnecessary or fun things for themselves.
feel rejection.
take things personally.
have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, neglect, abandonment, or alcoholism.
feel like victims.
tell themselves they can't do anything right.
be afraid of making mistakes.
wonder why they have a tough time making decisions.
expect themselves to do everything perfectly.
wonder why they can't get anything done to their satisfaction.
have a lot of "shoulds."
feel a lot of guilt.
feel ashamed of who they are.
think their lives aren't worth living.
try to help other people live their lives instead.
artificial feelings of self-worth from helping others.
get strong feelings of low self-worth embarrassment, failure, etc. from other people's failures and problems.
wish good things would happen to them.
believe good things never will happen.
wish other people would like and love them.
believe other people couldn't possibly like and love them.
try to prove they're good enough for other people.
settle for being needed.
Repression: Many codependents:
push their thoughts and feelings out of their awareness because of fear and guilt.
become afraid to let themselves be who they are.
appear rigid and controlled.
Obsession: Codependents tend to:
feel terribly anxious about problems and people.
worry about the silliest things.
think and talk a lot about other people.
lose sleep over problems or other people's behavior.
worry.
never find answers.
check on people.
try to catch people in acts of misbehavior.
feel unable to quit talking, thinking, and worrying about other people or problems.
abandon their routine because they are so upset about somebody or something.
focus all their energy on other people and problems.
wonder why they never have any energy.
wonder why they can't get things done.
Controlling: Many codependents:
have lived through events and with people that were out of control, causing the codependents sorrow and disappointment.
become afraid to let other people be who they are and allow events to happen naturally.
don't see or deal with their fear of loss of control.
think they know best how things should turn out and how people should behave.
try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination.
eventually fail in their efforts or provoke people's anger.
get frustrated and angry.
feel controlled by events and people.
Denial: Codependents tend to:
ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening.
pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are.
tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.
stay busy so they don't have to think about things.
get confused.
get depressed or sick.
go to doctors and get tranquilizers.
became workaholics.
spend money compulsively.
overeat.
pretend those things aren't happening, either.
watch problems get worse.
believe lies.
lie to themselves.
wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.
Dependency: Many codependents:
don't feel happy, content, or peaceful with themselves.
look for happiness outside themselves.
latch onto whoever or whatever they think can provide happiness.
feel terribly threatened by the loss of any thing or person they think provides their happiness.
didn't feel love and approval from their parents.
don't love themselves.
believe other people can't or don't love them.
desperately seek love and approval.
often seek love from people incapable of loving.
believe other people are never there for them.
equate love with pain.
feel they need people more than they want them.
try to prove they're good enough to be loved.
don't take time to see if other people are good for them.
worry whether other people love or like them.
don't take time to figure out if they love or like other people.
center their lives around other people.
look to relationships to provide all their good feelings.
lose interest in their own lives when they love.
worry other people will leave them.
don't believe they can take care of themselves.
stay in relationships that don't work.
tolerate abuse to keep people loving them.
feel trapped in relationships.
leave bad relationships and form new ones that don't work either.
wonder if they will ever find love.
Poor Communication: Codependents frequently:
blame
threaten.
coerce.
beg.
bribe.
advise.
don't say what they mean.
don't mean what they say.
don't know what they mean.
don't take themselves seriously.
think other people don't take the codependents seriously.
take themselves too seriously.
ask for what they want and need indirectly--sighing, for example
find it difficult to get to the point.
aren't sure what the point is.
gauge their words carefully to achieve a desired effect.
try to say what they think will please people.
try to say what they think will provoke people.
try to say what they hope will make people do what they want them to do.
eliminate the word "no" from their vocabulary
talk too much.
talk about other people.
avoid talking about themselves, their problems, feelings, and thoughts.
say everything is their fault.
say nothing is their fault.
believe their opinions don't matter.
wait to express their opinions until they know other people's opinions.
lie to protect and cover up for people they love.
lie to protect themselves.
have a difficult time asserting their rights.
have a difficult time expressing their emotions honestly, openly, and appropriately.
think most of what they have to say is unimportant.
begin to talk in cynical, self-degrading, or hostile ways.
apologize for bothering people.
Weak Boundaries: Codependents frequently:
say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they never would.
let others hurt them.
keep letting people hurt them.
wonder why they hurt so badly.
complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
finally get angry.
become totally intolerant.
Lack Of Trust: Codependents:
don't trust themselves.
don't trust their feelings.
don't trust their decisions.
don't trust other people.
try to trust untrustworthy people.
think God has abandoned them.
lose faith and trust in God.
Anger: Many codependents:
feel very scared, hurt, and angry.
live with people who are very scared, hurt, and angry.
are afraid of their own anger.
are frightened of other people's anger.
think people will go away if anger enters the picture.
think other people make them feel angry.
are afraid to make other people feel anger.
feel controlled by other people's anger.
repress their angry feelings.
cry a lot, get depressed, overeat, get sick, do mean and nasty things to get even, act hostile, or have violent temper outbursts.
punish other people for making the codependents angry.
have been shamed for feeling angry.
place guilt and shame on themselves for feeling angry.
feel increasing amounts of anger, resentment, and bitterness.
feel safer with their anger than with hurt feelings.
wonder if they'll ever not be angry.
Sex Problems: Some codependents:
are caretakers in the bedroom.
have sex when they don't want to.
have sex when they'd rather be held, nurtured, and loved.
try to have sex when they're angry or hurt.
refuse to enjoy sex because they're so angry at their partner.
are afraid of losing control.
have a difficult time asking for what they need in bed.
withdraw emotionally from their partner.
feel sexual revulsion toward their partner.
don't talk about it.
force themselves to have sex, anyway.
reduce sex to a technical act.
wonder why they don't enjoy sex.
lose interest in sex.
make up reasons to abstain.
wish their sex partner would die, go away, or sense the codependent's feelings.
have strong sexual fantasies about other people.
consider or have an extramarital affair.
Miscellaneous: Codependents tend to:
be extremely responsible.
be extremely irresponsible.
become martyrs, sacrificing their happiness and that of others for causes that don't require sacrifice.
find it difficult to feel close to people.
find it difficult to have fun and be spontaneous.
have an overall passive response to codependency--crying, hurt, helplessness.
have and overall aggressive response to codependency--violence, anger, dominance.
combine passive and aggressive responses.
vacillate in decisions and emotions.
laugh when they feel like crying.
stay loyal to their compulsions and people even when it hurts.
be ashamed about family, personal, or relationship problems.
be confused about the nature of the problem.
cover up, lie, and protect the problem.
not seek help because they tell themselves the problem isn't bad enough, or they aren't important enough.
wonder why the problem doesn't go away.
Progressive: In the later stages of codependency, codependents may:
feel lethargic.
feel depressed.
become withdrawn and isolated.
experience a complete loss of daily routine and structure.
abuse or neglect their children and other responsibilities.
feel hopeless.
begin to plan their escape from a relationship they feel trapped in.
think about suicide.
become violent.
become seriously emotionally, mentally, or physically ill.
experience an eating disorder (over- or undereating).
become addicted to alcohol and other drugs.
The preceding checklist is long but not all-inclusive. Like other people, codependents do, feel, and think many things. There are not a certain number of traits that guarantees whether a person is or isn't codependent. Each person is different; each person has his or her way of doing things. I'm just trying to paint a picture. The interpretation, or decision, is up to you. What's most important is that you first identify behaviors or areas that cause you problems, and then decide what you want to do.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
When I first began my recovery, almost every item on that list described me. Not all, but indeed most. Other people only see some areas that may fit.
Keep in mind, not everyone is codependent. Some here come because they are in crisis but can soon find a better path and may move on. Much like a drinker who gets drunk too often but can moderate quickly because he/she isn't an alcoholic, just a drinker with a problem.
But my experience is, just like the drinker, many who come here for help are indeed codependent. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing and this is the place where we all can get help to find a better way to live.
Hope this all helps.
Keep in mind, not everyone is codependent. Some here come because they are in crisis but can soon find a better path and may move on. Much like a drinker who gets drunk too often but can moderate quickly because he/she isn't an alcoholic, just a drinker with a problem.
But my experience is, just like the drinker, many who come here for help are indeed codependent. It's not a bad thing, it's just a thing and this is the place where we all can get help to find a better way to live.
Hope this all helps.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 635
I don't see myself as codependent, but I announce myself as one every Friday night at Celebrate Recovery. It's just easier than saying, "My name is ___________ and I struggle with falling in love with psychopaths". Partially because the term "psychopath" gets thrown around an awful lot, and it also reeks of me not taking responsibility for my problems. But it's the truth. I mean, two bona fide psychopaths- one abused me and killed my dog, the other... oh, goodness I've written about that too much on here already. And then there was the narcissistic "rock star" I wasted a year on... Anyway, it doesn't matter to me what I call myself, because I know that working the program for codependency has helped me immensely. Do what works.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Codependency can be deceptive and often mistaken for being a helpful, "go to" person. It served me well in my career, the thing is it wasn't that I was dedicated, I was an obsessed people pleaser and worked harder and longer than anyone else to get the job done...and therefore approval.
My son's addiction did not cause it, it just unleashed the worst in me. I was obsessed with trying to save him at any cost to myself.
The first time I went down that list, I thought that Melody Beattie must be looking in my window because she was describing me and my behaviour so well. It was a real eye opener, the end of denial and the beginning of me taking responsibility for my own behaviour and issues...and letting go of my son's.
For those who haven't read it, Melody Beattie's Codependent No More is one of the best books ever written about codependency and many of us here read it over and over again.
The good news is that we don't have to remain stuck in codependency. We can get counseling, go to meetings, join other self-help groups and do the work we need to do to break free of our chains. It turns out we had the key all along, now we just need to learn how to use it.
Hugs
My son's addiction did not cause it, it just unleashed the worst in me. I was obsessed with trying to save him at any cost to myself.
The first time I went down that list, I thought that Melody Beattie must be looking in my window because she was describing me and my behaviour so well. It was a real eye opener, the end of denial and the beginning of me taking responsibility for my own behaviour and issues...and letting go of my son's.
For those who haven't read it, Melody Beattie's Codependent No More is one of the best books ever written about codependency and many of us here read it over and over again.
The good news is that we don't have to remain stuck in codependency. We can get counseling, go to meetings, join other self-help groups and do the work we need to do to break free of our chains. It turns out we had the key all along, now we just need to learn how to use it.
Hugs
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: NYC area
Posts: 856
I read the lists and I see a lot of conflicting statements, such as: "say everything is their fault" and "say nothing is their fault". Or "be extremely responsible" and "be extremely irresponsible".
When my son was in rehab and we'd attend the family sessions prior to visiting at the facility, people spit out the word co-dependent constantly. They'd use the word as a weapon:
"What's your son's living arrangement after rehab?"
"Coming home"
"CO DEPENDENT!"
I don't agree. I have learned a lot about codependency, and I understand that his recovery is his responsibility. Ultimately, I cannot "heal him" - he has to do that himself. he has to take the responsibility and have the determination. but it seems to me that some people consider every kindness toward someone in recovery to be enabling or codependency - -
When someone is making an honest effort in their recovery... willingly in rehab, attending meetings, working with a sponsor, attending therapy, working, etc. they deserve help and support. If he has a bad month financially but I've seen that he's met all of his goals, I don't mind putting $50 toward his student loan to keep him out of arrears. Until his deductible was met, I didn't mind paying his medical bills. I don't want rent money from my son, I want him to pay his other bills, begin to build up a savings account. Our mortgage/tax bill is what it is, regardless of whether he's in one of the bedrooms or not. What does he do to earn his keep? He does all the yard work, the heavy cleaning and cooks dinner a couple of nights per week. I think that's fair. Just him doing the yard work saves us $250/month on the landscaper's bill! He doesn't have a lot of money, but he's strong, has energy, and wants to be a contributing member of the household.
What good would turning our backs have done? What rent could he have afforded? I know what - inner city, crime/drug area. How does that support recovery?
I see my son every day, EVERY DAY, get up, go to work, go to a meeting/therapy/or/IOP depending on the day of the week, meet or talk to his sponsor, help around the house, have a good/responsible social life. That is a huge reward, and a tremendous source of pride. I tell him every day EVERY DAY that I love him, that I'm proud of him, that I admire how hard he is working and how strongly he's dedicated to being healthy. My husband tells him, his brother tells him...
Am I misunderstanding something?
When my son was in rehab and we'd attend the family sessions prior to visiting at the facility, people spit out the word co-dependent constantly. They'd use the word as a weapon:
"What's your son's living arrangement after rehab?"
"Coming home"
"CO DEPENDENT!"
I don't agree. I have learned a lot about codependency, and I understand that his recovery is his responsibility. Ultimately, I cannot "heal him" - he has to do that himself. he has to take the responsibility and have the determination. but it seems to me that some people consider every kindness toward someone in recovery to be enabling or codependency - -
When someone is making an honest effort in their recovery... willingly in rehab, attending meetings, working with a sponsor, attending therapy, working, etc. they deserve help and support. If he has a bad month financially but I've seen that he's met all of his goals, I don't mind putting $50 toward his student loan to keep him out of arrears. Until his deductible was met, I didn't mind paying his medical bills. I don't want rent money from my son, I want him to pay his other bills, begin to build up a savings account. Our mortgage/tax bill is what it is, regardless of whether he's in one of the bedrooms or not. What does he do to earn his keep? He does all the yard work, the heavy cleaning and cooks dinner a couple of nights per week. I think that's fair. Just him doing the yard work saves us $250/month on the landscaper's bill! He doesn't have a lot of money, but he's strong, has energy, and wants to be a contributing member of the household.
What good would turning our backs have done? What rent could he have afforded? I know what - inner city, crime/drug area. How does that support recovery?
I see my son every day, EVERY DAY, get up, go to work, go to a meeting/therapy/or/IOP depending on the day of the week, meet or talk to his sponsor, help around the house, have a good/responsible social life. That is a huge reward, and a tremendous source of pride. I tell him every day EVERY DAY that I love him, that I'm proud of him, that I admire how hard he is working and how strongly he's dedicated to being healthy. My husband tells him, his brother tells him...
Am I misunderstanding something?
Member
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Australia
Posts: 36
This is a really interesting conversation you've opened up. I think people experience co-dependence differently, depending on their own personality and circumstances.
For me personally, I definitely became co-dependent with my addict ex. But after a few months I realised what was happening and what I was doing to contribute to it, and was quick to put an end to my behaviours and take control, at least on my own end. So I don't think of co-dependency as a personality type, or a binary "you're either co-dependent by nature or you're not" kind of a thing. We can go through stages of our lives where we get sucked into other people's sh*t, and we do our best to save them - some people for longer than others. Almost because it's natural in a way - of course our first instinct is to "help" and try to "save" someone we love - we love them!
Where co-dependency becomes really hard, as far as I can see, is when it's really really difficult for people to get out of the situation. E.g. I can't even begin to imagine having a child in their 20s or 30s or even 40s who is battling addiction. I think many parents would subsequently be struggling with co-dependence because cutting ties with your own child in an effort to save them seems like one of the hardest things a parent could ever do. Similarly for people who marry and have children with their addicts - especially before realising their spouse is an addict - would find it extremely difficult to grapple with their co-dep thoughts & behaviour patterns...
Also, low self-esteem and negative core beliefs can often be dormant. Many people live successful, fulfilling lives - they have great careers, are high achievers, many friends etc. But while they think they have confidence and a good self-image, they are actually using protective behaviours and "rules" which cover up their low self-esteem, i.e. they don't ever have to face or experience their negative core beliefs, because they have organised their life in a way that does not allow them to be exposed to situations which open these up. Then, a life stressor or an addict loved one can come along and completely throw off a person's status quo, opening up their dormant low self-esteem and exposing them to the negative self-image that they have worked so hard to avoid... so to answer your question, I don't think you explicitly need to hate yourself or have low self esteem to find yourself in a co-dependent relationship
For me personally, I definitely became co-dependent with my addict ex. But after a few months I realised what was happening and what I was doing to contribute to it, and was quick to put an end to my behaviours and take control, at least on my own end. So I don't think of co-dependency as a personality type, or a binary "you're either co-dependent by nature or you're not" kind of a thing. We can go through stages of our lives where we get sucked into other people's sh*t, and we do our best to save them - some people for longer than others. Almost because it's natural in a way - of course our first instinct is to "help" and try to "save" someone we love - we love them!
Where co-dependency becomes really hard, as far as I can see, is when it's really really difficult for people to get out of the situation. E.g. I can't even begin to imagine having a child in their 20s or 30s or even 40s who is battling addiction. I think many parents would subsequently be struggling with co-dependence because cutting ties with your own child in an effort to save them seems like one of the hardest things a parent could ever do. Similarly for people who marry and have children with their addicts - especially before realising their spouse is an addict - would find it extremely difficult to grapple with their co-dep thoughts & behaviour patterns...
Also, low self-esteem and negative core beliefs can often be dormant. Many people live successful, fulfilling lives - they have great careers, are high achievers, many friends etc. But while they think they have confidence and a good self-image, they are actually using protective behaviours and "rules" which cover up their low self-esteem, i.e. they don't ever have to face or experience their negative core beliefs, because they have organised their life in a way that does not allow them to be exposed to situations which open these up. Then, a life stressor or an addict loved one can come along and completely throw off a person's status quo, opening up their dormant low self-esteem and exposing them to the negative self-image that they have worked so hard to avoid... so to answer your question, I don't think you explicitly need to hate yourself or have low self esteem to find yourself in a co-dependent relationship
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
When someone is making an honest effort in their recovery... willingly in rehab, attending meetings, working with a sponsor, attending therapy, working, etc. they deserve help and support.
Helping him with his rent when he is clean and working and trying to take care of his bills, and when I can afford to help..is a loving thing to do.
Helping him with his rent when he spends the money he makes working on drugs, or when he loses his job and cannot pay...is enabling him because the money I give him for rent will go straight to buying drugs and not pay the rent at all. Or it will pay the rent and the little money he does have can now be used to buy drugs.
Sometimes it is hard to see where the line is. For me, if I was doing something for him that he could and should be doing for himself, I was robbing him of the lesson of responsibility and learning to manage life on his own.
Clean, he got my support, encouragement and some help if it was really needed.
Using, he didn't get anything except for a coffee or lunch I might buy him. I say this but before I reached this place of not enabling, I had given him thousands of dollars over the years, money that one way or another always went toward drugs, not the prescriptions, tools for the job, rent, clothing, and necessities that he used to get me to give him money that would be spend elsewhere.
Hope this helps a little.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
No, old soul, for me I had to stop trying to manage my son's addiction and sobriety and take better care of myself...because trying to save him almost killed me.
For example...
Caretaking: Codependents may:
feel angry when their help isn't effective.
anticipate other people's needs.
wonder why others don't do the same for them.
find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
See the pattern? For me this was me interfering and trying to manipulate my sons life, doing so many things for him that he didn't have to do anything for himself...this robbed him of important lessons. He didn't ask for my help, and he certainly didn't reciprocate with helping me or gratitude. Continuing this kind of life made me sicker and sicker as time went by.
A healthy relationship is give and take, each person bringing something to the relationship and being responsible for their part in it. A healthy relationship is where each person respects the other person and their values, boundaries and needs.
A sick relationship is when one person is doing all the work and the other person is simply not carrying their share of the load. A sick relationship has no boundaries and puts up with verbal abuse and sometimes physical abuse, and mental abuse too.
The person who stays in a sick relationship usually needs help to find the courage and self esteem to escape, or to set and enforce boundaries that, if respected, will make staying a possibility and a choice...not as a victim but as a person who can manage their own lives responsibly...and also the lives of her young children.
For example...
Caretaking: Codependents may:
feel angry when their help isn't effective.
anticipate other people's needs.
wonder why others don't do the same for them.
find themselves saying yes when they mean no, doing things they don't really want to be doing, doing more than their fair share of the work, and doing things other people are capable of doing for themselves.
See the pattern? For me this was me interfering and trying to manipulate my sons life, doing so many things for him that he didn't have to do anything for himself...this robbed him of important lessons. He didn't ask for my help, and he certainly didn't reciprocate with helping me or gratitude. Continuing this kind of life made me sicker and sicker as time went by.
A healthy relationship is give and take, each person bringing something to the relationship and being responsible for their part in it. A healthy relationship is where each person respects the other person and their values, boundaries and needs.
A sick relationship is when one person is doing all the work and the other person is simply not carrying their share of the load. A sick relationship has no boundaries and puts up with verbal abuse and sometimes physical abuse, and mental abuse too.
The person who stays in a sick relationship usually needs help to find the courage and self esteem to escape, or to set and enforce boundaries that, if respected, will make staying a possibility and a choice...not as a victim but as a person who can manage their own lives responsibly...and also the lives of her young children.
Member
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: Sobriety date 7/15/2015
Posts: 13,350
I understand a lot about letting go of toxic people. I had to do this twice recently. One an abusive friend of many years who just had a stroke and got meaner and my abusive user son who is just divorced and has no where to go. It's tough I'm a very emotional person. I care about them but cannot care for them.
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