atalose

Who was she completely dependent on for all her financial needs prior to you?

How did she support herself prior to you?

What’s been her work and financial history prior to you?

cynical one

Instead of allowing her to be completely dependent on you, and not wanting to do the complete financial cut-off, how about telling her starting the first of the year she will need to be responsible for say the electric bill or something equivalent. She could probably pay that by working just 10 hours a week. Then in a few months tell her she will now have to pay her own phone or food bills. And, progressively allow her to take on more adult responsibilities.

Hawkeye13

I think cynical one has a good plan here.

She, as an adult, must learn to accept that making money is part of independence and freedom.

If you don't want to cut her totally off, slowly parse out your increasing financial expectations, but eventually the outcome is that she must take charge of herself and her life. Your continued financial support of her is simply harmful to both of you, not least of which is that it emphasizes the power-differential in your relationship. You have the economic power and that makes it pretty tempting to control, or attempt to control, her actions.

Obviously, this is not healthy for either one of you. It is good you are re-engaging in your community and participating in the play, etc. and that you are aware of your inner compulsion to be in a relationship. I agree with other posters that until you learn to be happily alone, you will never be able to truly have the happiness a relationship of free association, as opposed to necessary dependence, can bring you.

I also want to gently point out that while Amy has the potential for greatness and "normal" growth and maturity as a human being, she also sounds like she is still quite early in her development which has been greatly (and perhaps permanently) impeded by her drug addiction.

You, on the other hand, appear to be already financially successful, mature, and educated. You have grown children and several relationships behind you. There is an inherent issue of interpersonal inequality here which might make the "logic" of your trying to manage and control her nearly impossible to resist. In fact, this kind of caretaking may be part of the attraction for you--only you can honestly evaluate that and see if there is truth in it.

But if you are codependent, this is particularly dangerous for both of you. You can lose yourself caring for her and she can give up ever becoming mature and taking control of her life by letting you do it.

In short, she deserves the right to try and manage her life even if she fails. You, as the older and wiser person who is not addicted, may need to take the lead here and make the right choices for you, and in some sense both of you by giving her that space and not enabling her in the name of love. It isn't easy, but I think based on the obvious love and concern you have shown for her Andy, you will do you best in the situation.
All of us wish you both well.

zoso77

The bonds we form with other men have a different form of emotional intimacy. That does not make it any less powerful than the bonds we form with our wives or our girlfriends. It's just different. The relationships I have with my buddies are extremely rewarding. Because we can tell each other the way it is, even when it's difficult or uncomfortable to do so.

It's been almost 3 years since the relationship ended with my AXGF. And I can tell you straight up that I'm in no rush to get back into the dating world. See, over this 3 year period, I've become very comfortable in my own skin. I've become very, very independent. In order for me to be in a romantic relationship, I would have to give up a little bit of that independence. And frankly, I don't want to.

Will that change? Perhaps. But in order for that to change, the woman in question would have to share my morals and values. I think it's safe to say, Andy, that your girlfriend probably doesn't share your morals and values. And yet you've made a tremendous sacrifice in order to try to "fix" her.

If you have to try to fix someone, you probably shouldn't be in a relationship with that someone.

If the only way you feel complete is in a romantic relationship, then you will always feel empty.

9111111

Sounds like you are in a bit of a fork in the road situation:

(1) You can figure out baby-steps to hopefully turn your friend into a functional adult, that lives up to your standards.

(2) You can figure out baby-steps to remove the guilt that you feel, when trying to set two adults (as in you and your friend) free.

hopeful4

So, she is lazy and shallow and you are supporting her. Why should she go look for a job or anything else since she can sit around and do nothing and you support her.

Just saying....

Carlotta

I don't think you are crazy but since you are able to know everything she does (not do) while on a break and not seeing her you obviously are gifted with remote vision and would probably be able to make excellent money as a psychic.
Maybe you could start that as a second job? It would fill up time spent obsessing on what she does and does not do and also help pay for her bills

NJandy

Thanks again for another insightful post, and thanks to everyone who tried to post something helpful. I really appreciate your ideas.

Given that there are about 8 billion people in the world (I haven't done an exact count), it stands to reason that there is going to be some diversity among the human race. So what works for one person and leads to happiness might not work for another, and vice versa. The fact that I might find happiness in a different way is not a sign of an internal defect, nor does it follow that I can "never" be happy.

I'm a social animal. I like being around people. I like coming home to a house where there are other people there who are close to me, as opposed to just coming home to my cats. (No offense to my cats. Hopefully they don't surf this forum.) I don't think it's troubling that I want to live with another person. (And for what it's worth, right now is a tough time for me because my youngest started college, so I'm at the proverbial empty next part of life.) I've tried living alone (I'm living alone now) (except for my cats!). I much prefer living with other people with whom I am close. It's fine if someone else so values their independence that they want to live alone, but that does not mean it's the right choice for me.

I also prefer the company of women. I always have. I relate to them better. A lot of the things a lot of guys do I find completely baffling. I have guy friends, but I've always felt more comfortable and closer to women. My "best man" at my first wedding was, in fact, a woman (who has remained a dear friend for decadesd). It's just who I am.

Last but not least, I love the emotional and physical intimacy of a romantic relationship. Again, I don't think that's a sign of trouble or emotional defect. I think it's perfectly natural (again, for me). I would not want to live without it; I tried it for three years and it was not a good time. I don't mind anyone else being celibate, but it's not for me. And casual sex does not work for me either. It leaves me feeling empty. So I could not just ditch relationships for an extended period of time. That does not mean I will "always" be "empty." Words like "always" and "never" are excessively strong when you are trying to apply them to the entire human race.

None of which is to say that I know what I'm doing in terms of developing relationships, or that I know what I'm doing with Amy. Plainly not. I would not be here, or go to Al-Anon meetings, or be seeing a therapist, or be taking a 7 week break, if I knew what I was doing. But I do know myself well enough to know that I crave the warmth and companionship of romantic love, and I cannot get the same thing in any other fashion.

One last thing. I don't agree that Amy has poor morals or values. I think she has very good morals, and one of the things I love about her is her character. I think she is dealing with a dangerous and devilishly complicated disease, which usually claims most of its victims. How exactly she fell into this disease is probably something no one can ever establish with certainty, but I will say knowing what I do about her family and upbringing, I don't envy her, and I'm not sure how I would have dealt with such a life. Also, I think there is some scientific evidence that some people are just biologically designed to be easy prey to addiction, and if that's true, then it's not a reflection on Amy's character either. This really is a disease, in every sense of the word.

My reason for bringing up her poor lifestyle habits was not to castigate her but rather because I firmly believe that it will undermine her recovery in the long run. And it seems to me that the professionals at her treatment facility should be pressuring her (in whatever is the most effective fashion possible) to change her habits of daily living so that she has something to live for. I think she could handle it, and far from causing a relapse, I think it would make her recovery more solid. My number one concern is for her to stay in recovery, because if she relapses there is the ever present danger of overdose and death. I think that danger is actually extremely high given what she's said recently about shooting up again. I don't want to be one of the people who has to report that his loved one died from drugs.

hopeful4

Good luck to you! No matter what you try, you cannot "save" someone or change them, no matter how hard you try.

Hawkeye13

Hi Andy;

I noticed you haven't responded to the idea of power difference or possible codependent issues that I posted earlier--any thoughts on these things?

I do think they are significant factors in what you are feeling / dealing with.

waitingforhope

Right now, things are really unequal and your carrying the load. I have the feeling you like a go-getter. Someone who has goals, initiative, a plan for their life, drive and focus and the motivation to follow through. That is someone you can offer your respect and admiration to and I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with wanting characteristics in someone that either balances you or has a lot in common with you. That's something you need to have in your life and that's just the way it is. Personally I think at 70 days clean, she should be accomplishing something or at least planning for some of the things you mentioned even if it's just baby steps because it shows effort, initiative and at least some goal in mind even if it's not totally defined yet. But what you got and your describing is a shell of a person you thought you knew. You knew a person who used drugs. You don't know her to be anything other than that person and that must be quite the shock to find out this is who she is. Who can say she'll stay this way? How long can you wait to find out? What will you do if this really is who she really is? I don't know that I contributed anything of value but I think you did get some good advice here. I do think your slowly bringing things to a head where a decision is in your future potentially sooner than you anticipated, that you are going to have to decide whether or not you can maintain your needs not being met anytime soon possibly. Venting this and working it all out to reconcile what your thinking with your actions is good I think. It means your working towards accepting and moving on and personally I see progress in you when I read your posts. This is your process, how you are going to get where you need to go. Your own path your finding so you don't really need to validate to anyone how your getting there. Maybe you need to start working on handing the reins over to her now and work with your therapist into slowly pulling back on the financial assistance your giving Amy so she can find and take the initiative to get life started again.

zoso77

Yeah...getting laid. It's important to some guys. I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with that.

In my situation, my AXGF f*cked my socks off. And man, it was awesome. Mind blowing. And it was constant. But she was also f*cking other guys behind my back. One of my first actions after we broke up was getting tested for STDs, which (for me) was a somewhat humiliating experience. My views on physical intimacy, inevitably, have been shaped a bit by that experience. Because physical intimacy is only intimate when you're only with her, and she's only with you.

Since my AXGF, I haven't been with anyone. By choice. In the days and weeks after we split, it was a time for me to take stock, to really think about what was important to me. And what I learned was I did not have to be in a physically intimate relationship with a woman in order to feel whole or complete. That doesn't mean that I'm not attracted to women. Quite the contrary. But if I'm going to be in an emotionally and physically intimate relationship with one of them, I want to be in a situation where I have something to give to her. At this moment in time, I have nothing to give. I take care of me, because I come first.

Andy, I don't know her from a hole in the wall. But what I can tell you with a high degree of confidence is you don't know her either. The person you know as Amy has been under the influence of opiates and alcohol for the majority of the time you've known her. Amy has been under the influence of opiates and alcohol for most of her adult life. F*ck, Andy, Amy doesn't know Amy because she's been numbing and poisoning herself for forever. Her core is unknown and remains to be seen. So if she doesn't know herself, you don't know her, either.

Her morals and values have been in stasis for as long as she's been using. What you flipping the bill for her rehab did was interrupt years of abuse. The only thing she valued before that interruption was the next high and the next drink. And from what I've learned from reading your posts, what you want is someone you can form a partnership with, and some reciprocity. Dude, at this moment in time (which is really the only moment that should matter), she ain't it.

Respectfully (as always)...
Z

AnvilheadII

so you pay for EVERYTHING? and she doesn't HAVE to do one darn thing? how long has that arrangement been going on? and HOW did you arrive at that being a solution?

her character isn't SO sterling that she isn't willing to LET someone else take care of her like she's incapable. if i recall she never once said thank you or kiss my patoot....and now you are on BREAK....so she gets her rent paid for, her bills, her FOOD, and doesn't even have to SPEAK to her......um....provider? dang....well done Amy!

Fandy

Andy, I know upper Montclair, it's a very nice section....living there is not cheap, I am more south near Princeton.

You are obviously an intelligent (clairvoyant too) man who likes cats...a real relationship with a real normal woman is possible for you.

You do not have to support this person hook line and sinker. You might want to give her a schedule of what you expect her to start doing....in the REAL world people (like myself) work, pay our own bills and mortgages WHILE working recovery....it feels good to take care of yourself, it's an accomplishment. You know how to work hard and long hours.

Your GF? EGF? is probably capable of doing a lot more for herself if you don't do it for her....her lack of involvement with the world obviously bothers you, maybe this arrangement is stale....maybe this relationship is too?

I don't have much experience with opiates, except for a 7-8 week period where I had an accident and had a broken shoulder in a sling...I remember feeling dehydrated and extra grouchy, but knew enough to not like the dead feeling.

all I am saying is don't settle for less. Good that you started a thread to get opinions and talk it out. wish you the best.

AnvilheadII

i could also be jealous....cuz nobody took care of my @ss 110% when i sobered up the first time. i had a 5 year old and got a new job within the first couple weeks. and even when hank and i were doing crack, i was the majority supporter, paid all my bills AND went to work (altho not with much efficiency) and a month after we quit WE BOUGHT A HOUSE. nobody has ever come racing in to my rescue.....since the day my mom kicked me out at 19 i've been on my own. i don't see where treating someone like they are some fragile 10 year old and doing everything FOR them is healthy....i don't see where she is learning about living life on life's terms and being a responsible productive human being under the current arrangement. however i have doubts she really wants to. she's got it made..........

you can't buy her a new life. you can't buy her recovery. and you can't pay enough to make her into someone else.

Vale

It took me a very long time for me to figure
out that the message I was ACTUALLY sending
had nothing to do with the message I THOUGHT
I was sending.

I thought I was this great white knight----
riding into battle to help a great person get
enough traction to beat this thing.

What my actions actually DID SAY was:
"You are a weak, ineffectual chronic screwup that
cannot survive in the world without theft or
charity."

If we truly care-----then we can find the
strength to remove ourselves from their lives as
the true nature of the ghastly
yin/yang dance of addiction/codependency

........is revealed.

Lead,follow,or get out of the way.
Option 3 has great utility in this regard.

NJandy

I think this is a great idea. It's so simple, I don't know why I never thought of it.

NJandy

Sure, I think you're correct. Part of what I'm trying to figure out is whether it's possible to have a non-codependent relationship (assuming she stays in recovery) or not.

NJandy

I have to confess that your posts do make me chuckle a little. It is ridiculous. To answer your question, it sort of happened gradually over time. At this point, it's difficult to imagine her showing up for work on time and holding down a job, but I agree (with everyone) that's got to move back toward independence somehow.

NJandy

I agree with all your points.

I'm sorry I wasn't available to be your Enable-In-Chief back in the day. I guess it would have been rather posh. On the other hand, aren't you better off?