New to this side - any experience?
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 786
New to this side - any experience?
So I've been reading over here for a while, though historically I've been on the friends and family of alcoholics side.
I know addiction is addiction. I have a friend whose ex has addictions to non-substances, but his abusive/addictive behavior strikingly mirrors my ex. I think there isn't much difference.
I've been divorced a year after 20 years with XAH. I have two boys in their early teens. I was independent, strong, and self-supportive when I met XAH.
A few years ago he "needed a change" and we moved across the country away from family and friends. (Note that we moved every 5 years or so, as soon as I'd developed networks.) His behavior became increasingly volatile and scary during the last year we were together, and his historic emotional and verbal abuse that had mostly come my way expanded in some disturbing incidents with the kids. This is during the time he finally admitted alcoholism and was "quitting", along with finding God. (This could be anyone's story, I recognize that in hindsight.)
I of course believed it and tried to support him, believing all along that the new volatility could be attributed to his newly sober brain. He knew just what to do, blaming me for things, telling me the ways I needed to change, gaslighting, manipulating, the whole ball of wax. Keeping me believing that there was a chance because he was finally working on it. But his behavior didn't seem to support true sobriety, and was frightening. The kids and I are still terrified of him and I know it's illogical. I also know that's part of this game and needs to be worked through.
I realized my kids were losing themselves. They couldn't attend school. One lost too much weight (as did I), one gained too much, none of us were doing very well. So when he refused to make a real effort as a father (I told him he needed to do 'x' or I wanted a divorce), I filed for divorce and moved back home. (The kids are doing very well, which makes my heart smile. When I'm hard on myself I remind myself where they were a year ago.) He is a plane ride away, remarried to his affair days post divorce because he "wasn't going to be alone". I believe she introduced him to the drugs he has been using, so I assume his current environment supports continual use. I am virtually no contact for my own emotional health.
He texts the kids periodically, often manipulating and subtly abusive, and saw them 3 times in the past year. They traveled to see him once and were very uncomfortable, not wanting to go back. I didn't "know" about the drugs at that time (thank you PTSD!?), but now that I have "remembered" several in incidents, coupled with reports from concerned friends still in the neighboring city, I can't believe I sent the kids there. I won't again. I am working on revising our custody to reflect that, though it's not something easy to do with my belligerent, angry, defensive, denying ex. But I can't send my kids into that situation. In his denial, XAH doesn't know we know, and we aren't telling him. (It was scary how the kids knew the drug use and didn't blink an eye when I discussed it with them. I'm still wondering what they may have seen that I didn't.)
I have a few big questions.
One, as the kids and I heal, is there anything different I should be thinking since it's drugs and not "just" alcohol? (Yes, I hear the ridiculousness in that. It's been alcohol, sleeping pills, sex, lots of things...but only recently pain pills and likely heroin.)
Two, any experience on how best to help kids with this outside of the typical counseling/Alateen approach to codependent/addict dysfunction they've learned? Specifically, they were open with their friends about the alcoholism, but the drugs...they have a harder time with that because while alcohol is common and in stores, we don't hang around people who casually use drugs. They struggle with something here...maybe more shame? I've shared it with my friends because I need help staying grounded in reality and not allowing denial or secrets. I told them they can share what they want. (They also have a stronger fear that he will die. They are probably right given his current path.)
Three, when dealing with a smart, clever ex who can manipulate anyone...if he chooses to fight me, has anyone had luck in the courts proving anything? How can I protect my kids if he forces this (even if only to control them or hurt me), without making my kids admit they don't want to see him (which they are terrified of doing)? I know there isn't an easy answer. If he won't agree I won't send them and willingly risk contempt. I have a good job and don't have an expensive habit...so I am willing to try to outlast him financially in the courts. I'm just really disappointed in the precedence I see. An abusive father appears better than a safe upbringing in the courts' eyes.
Thanks for anything you can share!
I know addiction is addiction. I have a friend whose ex has addictions to non-substances, but his abusive/addictive behavior strikingly mirrors my ex. I think there isn't much difference.
I've been divorced a year after 20 years with XAH. I have two boys in their early teens. I was independent, strong, and self-supportive when I met XAH.
A few years ago he "needed a change" and we moved across the country away from family and friends. (Note that we moved every 5 years or so, as soon as I'd developed networks.) His behavior became increasingly volatile and scary during the last year we were together, and his historic emotional and verbal abuse that had mostly come my way expanded in some disturbing incidents with the kids. This is during the time he finally admitted alcoholism and was "quitting", along with finding God. (This could be anyone's story, I recognize that in hindsight.)
I of course believed it and tried to support him, believing all along that the new volatility could be attributed to his newly sober brain. He knew just what to do, blaming me for things, telling me the ways I needed to change, gaslighting, manipulating, the whole ball of wax. Keeping me believing that there was a chance because he was finally working on it. But his behavior didn't seem to support true sobriety, and was frightening. The kids and I are still terrified of him and I know it's illogical. I also know that's part of this game and needs to be worked through.
I realized my kids were losing themselves. They couldn't attend school. One lost too much weight (as did I), one gained too much, none of us were doing very well. So when he refused to make a real effort as a father (I told him he needed to do 'x' or I wanted a divorce), I filed for divorce and moved back home. (The kids are doing very well, which makes my heart smile. When I'm hard on myself I remind myself where they were a year ago.) He is a plane ride away, remarried to his affair days post divorce because he "wasn't going to be alone". I believe she introduced him to the drugs he has been using, so I assume his current environment supports continual use. I am virtually no contact for my own emotional health.
He texts the kids periodically, often manipulating and subtly abusive, and saw them 3 times in the past year. They traveled to see him once and were very uncomfortable, not wanting to go back. I didn't "know" about the drugs at that time (thank you PTSD!?), but now that I have "remembered" several in incidents, coupled with reports from concerned friends still in the neighboring city, I can't believe I sent the kids there. I won't again. I am working on revising our custody to reflect that, though it's not something easy to do with my belligerent, angry, defensive, denying ex. But I can't send my kids into that situation. In his denial, XAH doesn't know we know, and we aren't telling him. (It was scary how the kids knew the drug use and didn't blink an eye when I discussed it with them. I'm still wondering what they may have seen that I didn't.)
I have a few big questions.
One, as the kids and I heal, is there anything different I should be thinking since it's drugs and not "just" alcohol? (Yes, I hear the ridiculousness in that. It's been alcohol, sleeping pills, sex, lots of things...but only recently pain pills and likely heroin.)
Two, any experience on how best to help kids with this outside of the typical counseling/Alateen approach to codependent/addict dysfunction they've learned? Specifically, they were open with their friends about the alcoholism, but the drugs...they have a harder time with that because while alcohol is common and in stores, we don't hang around people who casually use drugs. They struggle with something here...maybe more shame? I've shared it with my friends because I need help staying grounded in reality and not allowing denial or secrets. I told them they can share what they want. (They also have a stronger fear that he will die. They are probably right given his current path.)
Three, when dealing with a smart, clever ex who can manipulate anyone...if he chooses to fight me, has anyone had luck in the courts proving anything? How can I protect my kids if he forces this (even if only to control them or hurt me), without making my kids admit they don't want to see him (which they are terrified of doing)? I know there isn't an easy answer. If he won't agree I won't send them and willingly risk contempt. I have a good job and don't have an expensive habit...so I am willing to try to outlast him financially in the courts. I'm just really disappointed in the precedence I see. An abusive father appears better than a safe upbringing in the courts' eyes.
Thanks for anything you can share!
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: new moon road
Posts: 1,545
My divorce was from a severe alcoholic, not a drug addict, but, oh, how I relate to your experience of the addict spouse who wants to sever you from your support system by moving you far away because he "needs a change" (Toby Rice Drews writes of this common scenario in her book "Getting Them Sober). I also saw my alcoholic ex marry again right away, to someone much younger he could control and also, if things went according to his plan, get pregnant so to tether in one more anchor to keep her at his mercy.
I think you have done remarkable things in your fight to protect your children and yourself from being destroyed, and I'm glad you posted your story in detail. It helps others.
As for your questions, the question about help for your children apart from the usual counseling/Alateen....
Most people do not understand addiction (as most of us here did not until we were forced by drastic circumstances to educate ourselves) and it is a risk to discuss the addiction of one's family member with people who are not knowledgeable about addicts nor about the mental effects we experience from living with addiction.
If your kids have a good counselor, and if you can afford to give them a year of weekly or bi-weekly sessions (individually, if you can, because every child of an addict has secrets he or she will not share in the presence of another person), I think containing the discussions and the processing of intense emotions in a counselor's office is safest.
Others here have much experience with your other concerns and can offer useful insight. Since it is a weekend, there might be fewer responses than on a weekday, but eventually, there will be more posts.
I just also want to say: when you think about the past years with the alcoholic/addict husband, when you think about things you accepted, when you think about what your children experienced, when you wonder at how you missed so many important signs, please try to have some compassion for yourself. Alcoholics and addicts will always be ten steps ahead of us. They will always outwit us, outmaneuver us, always lie with finesse, always degrade by hitting the most vulnerable part of us, always inflate themselves and make us look crazy and cold. Addiction can create individuals who excel at ruthless and devious tactics which most honest people are incapable of seeing. Your normal brain and your decent heart prevented you, for a long time, from seeing what he is.
Give yourself credit: when the fog finally cleared, you took decisive action and are continuing to do so. That takes courage.
I think you have done remarkable things in your fight to protect your children and yourself from being destroyed, and I'm glad you posted your story in detail. It helps others.
As for your questions, the question about help for your children apart from the usual counseling/Alateen....
Most people do not understand addiction (as most of us here did not until we were forced by drastic circumstances to educate ourselves) and it is a risk to discuss the addiction of one's family member with people who are not knowledgeable about addicts nor about the mental effects we experience from living with addiction.
If your kids have a good counselor, and if you can afford to give them a year of weekly or bi-weekly sessions (individually, if you can, because every child of an addict has secrets he or she will not share in the presence of another person), I think containing the discussions and the processing of intense emotions in a counselor's office is safest.
Others here have much experience with your other concerns and can offer useful insight. Since it is a weekend, there might be fewer responses than on a weekday, but eventually, there will be more posts.
I just also want to say: when you think about the past years with the alcoholic/addict husband, when you think about things you accepted, when you think about what your children experienced, when you wonder at how you missed so many important signs, please try to have some compassion for yourself. Alcoholics and addicts will always be ten steps ahead of us. They will always outwit us, outmaneuver us, always lie with finesse, always degrade by hitting the most vulnerable part of us, always inflate themselves and make us look crazy and cold. Addiction can create individuals who excel at ruthless and devious tactics which most honest people are incapable of seeing. Your normal brain and your decent heart prevented you, for a long time, from seeing what he is.
Give yourself credit: when the fog finally cleared, you took decisive action and are continuing to do so. That takes courage.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
EG wrote:
I also saw my alcoholic ex marry again right away, to someone much younger he could control and also, if things went according to his plan, get pregnant so to tether in one more anchor to keep her at his mercy.
================================================== ===============
Wow.
Listen up, ladies.
================================================== ===============
then EG writes....
Alcoholics and addicts will always be ten steps ahead of us. They will always outwit us, outmaneuver us, always lie with finesse, always degrade by hitting the most vulnerable part of us, always inflate themselves and make us look crazy and cold. Addiction can create individuals who excel at ruthless and devious tactics which most honest people are incapable of seeing. Your normal brain and your decent heart prevented you, for a long time, from seeing what he is.
================================================== ===============
Wow again!
EG you are a poet and we are lucky to have you!
Vale
I also saw my alcoholic ex marry again right away, to someone much younger he could control and also, if things went according to his plan, get pregnant so to tether in one more anchor to keep her at his mercy.
================================================== ===============
Wow.
Listen up, ladies.
================================================== ===============
then EG writes....
Alcoholics and addicts will always be ten steps ahead of us. They will always outwit us, outmaneuver us, always lie with finesse, always degrade by hitting the most vulnerable part of us, always inflate themselves and make us look crazy and cold. Addiction can create individuals who excel at ruthless and devious tactics which most honest people are incapable of seeing. Your normal brain and your decent heart prevented you, for a long time, from seeing what he is.
================================================== ===============
Wow again!
EG you are a poet and we are lucky to have you!
Vale
Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 98
Since he is a plane ride away, ISTM that simply requiring him to pay to visit or to have the kids visit him would go a long way to limiting his visitation. If he is truly an addict, the addiction will come first and any money he can beg borrow or steal would go to the addiction and not to visitation.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 786
Stucco- you are right. Unfortunately when I left, I was so elated to get to move and still thinking "he can be a good father, it's best for the kids", I agreed to pay for it. On paper. I need to change that. Ahhh...even as the denial lifts, it is slowly, layer by layer...
EG wrote:
________________________
I just also want to say: when you think about the past years with the alcoholic/addict husband, when you think about things you accepted, when you think about what your children experienced, when you wonder at how you missed so many important signs, please try to have some compassion for yourself. Alcoholics and addicts will always be ten steps ahead of us. They will always outwit us, outmaneuver us, always lie with finesse, always degrade by hitting the most vulnerable part of us, always inflate themselves and make us look crazy and cold. Addiction can create individuals who excel at ruthless and devious tactics which most honest people are incapable of seeing. Your normal brain and your decent heart prevented you, for a long time, from seeing what he is.
Give yourself credit: when the fog finally cleared, you took decisive action and are continuing to do so. That takes courage.
____________________________
Can I just say THANK YOU? I try to remind myself of that. The voices in my head go back 5 years, 10 years and berate me for letting my kids grow up in a worsening dysfunction. Realistically I KNOW it was slow and insidious, and if I knew then what I knew now...sigh. We were "successful", he had a great front, he managed it all on the outside flawlessly.
It's so helpful to hear this. Somewhere I KNOW I've done my best. I'm just still sad that this is my children's reality, and I never would have chosen it. And it's so interesting to think- I'm not unique. He's not unique. We all think we are, but it's usually another version of the same story.
Thank you.
EG wrote:
________________________
I just also want to say: when you think about the past years with the alcoholic/addict husband, when you think about things you accepted, when you think about what your children experienced, when you wonder at how you missed so many important signs, please try to have some compassion for yourself. Alcoholics and addicts will always be ten steps ahead of us. They will always outwit us, outmaneuver us, always lie with finesse, always degrade by hitting the most vulnerable part of us, always inflate themselves and make us look crazy and cold. Addiction can create individuals who excel at ruthless and devious tactics which most honest people are incapable of seeing. Your normal brain and your decent heart prevented you, for a long time, from seeing what he is.
Give yourself credit: when the fog finally cleared, you took decisive action and are continuing to do so. That takes courage.
____________________________
Can I just say THANK YOU? I try to remind myself of that. The voices in my head go back 5 years, 10 years and berate me for letting my kids grow up in a worsening dysfunction. Realistically I KNOW it was slow and insidious, and if I knew then what I knew now...sigh. We were "successful", he had a great front, he managed it all on the outside flawlessly.
It's so helpful to hear this. Somewhere I KNOW I've done my best. I'm just still sad that this is my children's reality, and I never would have chosen it. And it's so interesting to think- I'm not unique. He's not unique. We all think we are, but it's usually another version of the same story.
Thank you.
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