Today's Lesson
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It's good you posted about this, Zoso. We say over and over on the forum that addicts loop back again, and again, and unless we have got our recovery uppermost in our priorities, we are so vulnerable to the emotional manipulation that follows.
So many here have lost a relationship with an addicted person and wished with heart and soul to have, somehow, a second chance to try to make things work. So when newcomers hear that addicts "usually come back again", they hold out hope it will be so. They still hold an illusion about who the person is, they have romantic longings and they know "there's a good person underneath the addiction." They do not face who the person is today, how that person operates today. But instead think that with just the right sponsor/rehab/group, the person will transform and become the "amazing" man or woman the newcomer always hoped for. Within six months or so.
So when the addict shows up again--still rolling a ton of baggage and crap behind him/her but remembering just how to say "you were the one," "I really messed up when I lost someone like you," "you were the only good thing in my life," "I want to be the man/woman you deserve"......the newbie codependent with a minimum of recovery jumps right back in.
So thank you for your post. I remember way back when, telling you she'd be back. And she's come around a few times since. Toby Rice Drews has that famous line, "It's hard to lose an alcoholic." It applies to your situation, too. And probably what is saving you from leaping into the cauldron again (as in, "she must be unhappy with him and maybe we can get together again") is all the work you have done in therapy. We get back what we put into recovery work.
If we keep saying "It was the addict" who was all messed up and "I'll just wait here and avoid therapy and meetings and solitude while I wait for him/her to clean up"....well, what we get is another very very painful ride on the addiction merry-go-round the moment the sweet-talking addict rings the bell.
Thanks for letting us know. It helps with the clarity so very much needed in these situations.
So many here have lost a relationship with an addicted person and wished with heart and soul to have, somehow, a second chance to try to make things work. So when newcomers hear that addicts "usually come back again", they hold out hope it will be so. They still hold an illusion about who the person is, they have romantic longings and they know "there's a good person underneath the addiction." They do not face who the person is today, how that person operates today. But instead think that with just the right sponsor/rehab/group, the person will transform and become the "amazing" man or woman the newcomer always hoped for. Within six months or so.
So when the addict shows up again--still rolling a ton of baggage and crap behind him/her but remembering just how to say "you were the one," "I really messed up when I lost someone like you," "you were the only good thing in my life," "I want to be the man/woman you deserve"......the newbie codependent with a minimum of recovery jumps right back in.
So thank you for your post. I remember way back when, telling you she'd be back. And she's come around a few times since. Toby Rice Drews has that famous line, "It's hard to lose an alcoholic." It applies to your situation, too. And probably what is saving you from leaping into the cauldron again (as in, "she must be unhappy with him and maybe we can get together again") is all the work you have done in therapy. We get back what we put into recovery work.
If we keep saying "It was the addict" who was all messed up and "I'll just wait here and avoid therapy and meetings and solitude while I wait for him/her to clean up"....well, what we get is another very very painful ride on the addiction merry-go-round the moment the sweet-talking addict rings the bell.
Thanks for letting us know. It helps with the clarity so very much needed in these situations.
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Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 65
Maybe I suck for not closing off all avenues of contact, but I don't reply, so I have that going for me.
My "ping's" are usually, " hey, how's it going? I miss you.", followed a few weeks later by sexy talk, whatever it takes to get me talking again. All of which have failed.
While I'm proud of my non-responsiveness, I do hold out hope that one day she'll get her act together, maybe that makes me stupid. I don't know.
They are like an effing boomerang though. Hell, if my dog came back this often, I'd be stoked.
My "ping's" are usually, " hey, how's it going? I miss you.", followed a few weeks later by sexy talk, whatever it takes to get me talking again. All of which have failed.
While I'm proud of my non-responsiveness, I do hold out hope that one day she'll get her act together, maybe that makes me stupid. I don't know.
They are like an effing boomerang though. Hell, if my dog came back this often, I'd be stoked.
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Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 65
Thank you for your response to my post zoso. I in now way meant to invalidate the pain she has caused you. I do have much background in mental disorders, and bpd is a disorder, not a defect. The behavior an untreated bpd exhibits can seem like a character disorder...and you said you feel more sympathy towardsbipolars because they did not choose it. NEither do borderlines. They can however choose to recover. I will stop now, I understand this is not a forum for this discussion. But I am speaking from a space of knowledge, training and extensive experience, starting in 1992, before most people even knew bpd existed. On another note, I have read many of your posts and I am glad you broke free of the horror that is a relationship with an active addict and untreated borderline. It is hell.
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Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by zoso77 
Bipolar is a chemical disorder, a real chemical imbalance in the brain that can make it difficult to regulate moods. Addicts will turn to alcohol, drugs, or both in order to self medicate.
BPD, on the other hand, is cognitive carnage going on between the ears. Those afflicted with it really have to go through intense cognitive behavioral therapy if they want to get better.
Combine either with addiction, and look out. That said, I feel more empathy for someone who's Bipolar. They didn't ask for it, and without the proper medication, they really can't regulate their own moods (assuming meds have any effect at all)...
BPD, on the other hand, is cognitive carnage going on between the ears. Those afflicted with it really have to go through intense cognitive behavioral therapy if they want to get better.
Combine either with addiction, and look out. That said, I feel more empathy for someone who's Bipolar. They didn't ask for it, and without the proper medication, they really can't regulate their own moods (assuming meds have any effect at all)...
Curmudgeon, Electrical Engineer, Guitar God Wannabe
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Jend719,
I am intimately familiar with BPD. Intimately, based on reading books, discussions with my own clincian, and empirical evidence.
My empirical evidence strongly suggests that when you give someone with BPD empathy, they're not only incapble of absorbing it, they will often throw it back in your face. My AXGF, in the time I was with her, had multiple psych hospitalizations, one near fatal overdose, and a very dramatic suicide threat that was stopped by the state police. And at each opportunity to look back at what brought her to where she currently was, she chose to keep behaving the way she always behaved: poorly.
I've known her for three years, been broken up with her for two, and instead of making better, healthier decisions, she continues to do stuff like this.
So allow me to be direct: I have no empathy for her. None. Opiates masked what she is: a duplicitous, narcissistic, manipulative, sadistic harlot. She's had opportunity after opportunity to make better choices for herself and she has chosen not to do the hard work required to get healthier. Is it easy to do that? No. But it's also not easy to learn how to keep your sanity when you're involved with an addict and/or a Borderline, or to gain it back after things blow up in your face. That's what I had to do. And that's what I did.
We've got one shot in this life, Jend719. Only one. My AXGF chooses to snipe at me from a distance two years after we broke up. I've chosen to continue moving forward with my life, having achieved my academic goals and focusing on my professional and musical goals.
My hope for your daughter is she, too, comes to the realization there is a better way to live than the way she currently is. And she is capable of making that choice. But unless she does, she simply won't get better and will take whatever love, empathy and support she receives and throw it back in the faces of those who give it. Because that's what Borderlines do.
ZoSo
I am intimately familiar with BPD. Intimately, based on reading books, discussions with my own clincian, and empirical evidence.
My empirical evidence strongly suggests that when you give someone with BPD empathy, they're not only incapble of absorbing it, they will often throw it back in your face. My AXGF, in the time I was with her, had multiple psych hospitalizations, one near fatal overdose, and a very dramatic suicide threat that was stopped by the state police. And at each opportunity to look back at what brought her to where she currently was, she chose to keep behaving the way she always behaved: poorly.
I've known her for three years, been broken up with her for two, and instead of making better, healthier decisions, she continues to do stuff like this.
So allow me to be direct: I have no empathy for her. None. Opiates masked what she is: a duplicitous, narcissistic, manipulative, sadistic harlot. She's had opportunity after opportunity to make better choices for herself and she has chosen not to do the hard work required to get healthier. Is it easy to do that? No. But it's also not easy to learn how to keep your sanity when you're involved with an addict and/or a Borderline, or to gain it back after things blow up in your face. That's what I had to do. And that's what I did.
We've got one shot in this life, Jend719. Only one. My AXGF chooses to snipe at me from a distance two years after we broke up. I've chosen to continue moving forward with my life, having achieved my academic goals and focusing on my professional and musical goals.
My hope for your daughter is she, too, comes to the realization there is a better way to live than the way she currently is. And she is capable of making that choice. But unless she does, she simply won't get better and will take whatever love, empathy and support she receives and throw it back in the faces of those who give it. Because that's what Borderlines do.
ZoSo
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Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 32
Hi zoso,
thanks for your posts. This one made me think of my situation. My exabf also wants to get to me by always doing appalling things to attract my attention. He does not have my mobile phone num anymore cos I changed it so many times, however he still finds ways to disturb me, tho we have been no contact for 2 years now! It is very annoying because I was/am still recovering from his abuse and the only thing I wanted was to be left alone,be ignored by him. I even managed to go away from my city and we don't meet anymore. What I feel is a lot of regret and anger but I am managing wonderfully.
However when I go back to my city cos my family is still there, he "sends" me his friends to bully me. They say lots of things about things only he could know cos it s about our intimacy and things I shared only with him about my relationship with my father. Everything that should have stayed a secret has been manipulated by him and his friends and they come to me and bully me, even heavily. I wanted to do something to speak up for my self but I would not know how to do it, so I just ignore them tho I feel crap and very much offended by them. When he got involved with a new girlfriend, about a year ago, they both used to bully me with facebook, last time that happened was last summer. I don't have facebook anymore now... sometimes I feel like he compromised my life a lot. My actions are influenced by him. I m conforted by the fact that most of these ppl, his firends, are users of drugs, if not addicts. However I don't find it healty nor fair anymore to always justify these horrible ppl just because they do what they do (drugs). I mean it has been a long time now, we never see each other etc... I wish he would go on with his new life since he is very much in love and just forget about me. Forget about all the things he says STILL NOW I could not do to him, OR all my faults, all my limits. I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE but he/they won't leave me alone!!!! Would you classify this as bullying? Should I report this behaviour to the police?
thanks for your posts. This one made me think of my situation. My exabf also wants to get to me by always doing appalling things to attract my attention. He does not have my mobile phone num anymore cos I changed it so many times, however he still finds ways to disturb me, tho we have been no contact for 2 years now! It is very annoying because I was/am still recovering from his abuse and the only thing I wanted was to be left alone,be ignored by him. I even managed to go away from my city and we don't meet anymore. What I feel is a lot of regret and anger but I am managing wonderfully.
However when I go back to my city cos my family is still there, he "sends" me his friends to bully me. They say lots of things about things only he could know cos it s about our intimacy and things I shared only with him about my relationship with my father. Everything that should have stayed a secret has been manipulated by him and his friends and they come to me and bully me, even heavily. I wanted to do something to speak up for my self but I would not know how to do it, so I just ignore them tho I feel crap and very much offended by them. When he got involved with a new girlfriend, about a year ago, they both used to bully me with facebook, last time that happened was last summer. I don't have facebook anymore now... sometimes I feel like he compromised my life a lot. My actions are influenced by him. I m conforted by the fact that most of these ppl, his firends, are users of drugs, if not addicts. However I don't find it healty nor fair anymore to always justify these horrible ppl just because they do what they do (drugs). I mean it has been a long time now, we never see each other etc... I wish he would go on with his new life since he is very much in love and just forget about me. Forget about all the things he says STILL NOW I could not do to him, OR all my faults, all my limits. I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE but he/they won't leave me alone!!!! Would you classify this as bullying? Should I report this behaviour to the police?
Curmudgeon, Electrical Engineer, Guitar God Wannabe
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Originally Posted by mely86
Hi zoso,
thanks for your posts. This one made me think of my situation. My exabf also wants to get to me by always doing appalling things to attract my attention. He does not have my mobile phone num anymore cos I changed it so many times, however he still finds ways to disturb me, tho we have been no contact for 2 years now! It is very annoying because I was/am still recovering from his abuse and the only thing I wanted was to be left alone,be ignored by him. I even managed to go away from my city and we don't meet anymore. What I feel is a lot of regret and anger but I am managing wonderfully.
However when I go back to my city cos my family is still there, he "sends" me his friends to bully me. They say lots of things about things only he could know cos it s about our intimacy and things I shared only with him about my relationship with my father. Everything that should have stayed a secret has been manipulated by him and his friends and they come to me and bully me, even heavily. I wanted to do something to speak up for my self but I would not know how to do it, so I just ignore them tho I feel crap and very much offended by them. When he got involved with a new girlfriend, about a year ago, they both used to bully me with facebook, last time that happened was last summer. I don't have facebook anymore now... sometimes I feel like he compromised my life a lot. My actions are influenced by him. I m conforted by the fact that most of these ppl, his firends, are users of drugs, if not addicts. However I don't find it healty nor fair anymore to always justify these horrible ppl just because they do what they do (drugs). I mean it has been a long time now, we never see each other etc... I wish he would go on with his new life since he is very much in love and just forget about me. Forget about all the things he says STILL NOW I could not do to him, OR all my faults, all my limits. I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE but he/they won't leave me alone!!!! Would you classify this as bullying? Should I report this behaviour to the police?
thanks for your posts. This one made me think of my situation. My exabf also wants to get to me by always doing appalling things to attract my attention. He does not have my mobile phone num anymore cos I changed it so many times, however he still finds ways to disturb me, tho we have been no contact for 2 years now! It is very annoying because I was/am still recovering from his abuse and the only thing I wanted was to be left alone,be ignored by him. I even managed to go away from my city and we don't meet anymore. What I feel is a lot of regret and anger but I am managing wonderfully.
However when I go back to my city cos my family is still there, he "sends" me his friends to bully me. They say lots of things about things only he could know cos it s about our intimacy and things I shared only with him about my relationship with my father. Everything that should have stayed a secret has been manipulated by him and his friends and they come to me and bully me, even heavily. I wanted to do something to speak up for my self but I would not know how to do it, so I just ignore them tho I feel crap and very much offended by them. When he got involved with a new girlfriend, about a year ago, they both used to bully me with facebook, last time that happened was last summer. I don't have facebook anymore now... sometimes I feel like he compromised my life a lot. My actions are influenced by him. I m conforted by the fact that most of these ppl, his firends, are users of drugs, if not addicts. However I don't find it healty nor fair anymore to always justify these horrible ppl just because they do what they do (drugs). I mean it has been a long time now, we never see each other etc... I wish he would go on with his new life since he is very much in love and just forget about me. Forget about all the things he says STILL NOW I could not do to him, OR all my faults, all my limits. I WANT TO BE LEFT ALONE but he/they won't leave me alone!!!! Would you classify this as bullying? Should I report this behaviour to the police?
Protect yourself.
ZoSo
Engineer Things; LOVE People
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 3,707
Originally Posted by tangerinepuddle
Thank you for your response to my post zoso. I in now way meant to invalidate the pain she has caused you. I do have much background in mental disorders, and bpd is a disorder, not a defect. The behavior an untreated bpd exhibits can seem like a character disorder...and you said you feel more sympathy towardsbipolars because they did not choose it. NEither do borderlines. They can however choose to recover. I will stop now, I understand this is not a forum for this discussion. But I am speaking from a space of knowledge, training and extensive experience, starting in 1992, before most people even knew bpd existed. On another note, I have read many of your posts and I am glad you broke free of the horror that is a relationship with an active addict and untreated borderline. It is hell.
The actual title goes back over a century to 1890's.
Wiki does a fair coverage >>>
Borderline personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DSM-5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What Z appears to be experiencing may be attempts at what are called a "recycle." She likely wants to cheat on the new husband by recycling Z. Lotta drama and self-validation for her if she were to re-bag and dump Z again, as it were.
For more common discussion on how to deal with this and most of the other delightful aspects, BPD Family does a fair job >>>
Borderline Personality Disorder - Support group for families and relationship partners
And we have a thread on the Mental Health Section here on the topic.
Includes details on the actual, measurable, observable brain dysfunction.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...er-thread.html
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And since they're capable of anything, we always need to be on guard.
this really resonates with me. as a former crack addict, I have to take the same approach to drugs, to even THINKING for a moment that might somehow be a good idea. I have to always be on guard. ok not vigilant every moment of every day, but I have to watch my thinking, my attitude, my actions. the beast never sleeps.
this really resonates with me. as a former crack addict, I have to take the same approach to drugs, to even THINKING for a moment that might somehow be a good idea. I have to always be on guard. ok not vigilant every moment of every day, but I have to watch my thinking, my attitude, my actions. the beast never sleeps.
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