LoveMeNow

PS. Some posters continue to blame drugs for others actions and post all about the other persons journey BUT have yet taken any time to understand their own actions and behaviors. It's still about him/her still.

DragynLady

It takes time for that insight to come, LoveMeNow. Even if the addict is in recovery,that doesn't mean that we, the family and friends, are in recovery. I see people in Al Anon now who have been in the program longer than me who still cling to their attempts to fix their alcoholic/addict. They just haven't had the awakening; it will come, hopefully, with time.

Learning to detach is hard, especially when you've wrapped your entire life around this person for so long.

Ann

I was one of the "slow learners" that LMN refers to. It took me forever, even when I found my own recovery, to keep the focus on me.

When I knew better, I did better, but it was pretty hard to take my focus off of the fact my son was self-destructing before my eyes.

I try to remember that when I see people struggle with this, I didn't find my serenity overnight. It took years.

Hugs

Lily1918

I am No Contact with Ds mother, my sister, and two of my friends, all of whom are sober and "normal" because they refuse treatment.
I cannot stand them trying to control the way I live my life.
I get depressed when I think of how badly I abused D.
Stalking him, blowing up his phone, drugtesting him... yelling screaming and I hit him several times.
I miss him now.
I wonder what my DOC is.... opiates or my husband?

LoveMeNow

Oh trust me, I, too, have been a very slow learner. Change is hard for most people.

That said, I am grateful that I took the time to really look at me, my behaviors, and my choices. I am grateful that many took the time to show me a healthier way. I am still very much a work in progress and always will be.

MsPINKAcres

Slow learner here too!

which is why I love and often remind fellow friends in recovery - "Progress not perfection"

My journey with my exah was 10 yrs active addiction, then he went to rehab,
I started al-anon when he was 6 months sober
we lived a little over a year apart
we got back together when he was 15 months sober
he relapsed around a little before 3 yrs sober
it took almost 2 yrs before I found the peace and release to be able to leave

everyone is on their own path - the addict/alcoholic & the al-anon ~ I think the main thing is to remember it is a path, a journey - please don't give up on YOU and your quest for a life that is happy, joyous and free ~ you deserve it!

PINK HUGS!

BlueChair

Lot of activity while I was gone. I am going to have to think about some of the posts before I can reply, they are deep.

Its sort of hard for me. I didnt know he was using until he went missing. He had been using a couple months, but when he was around me at least, he seemed normal except like he was under stress, and I thought it was work related. I wasnt really worried about it.

I see the aftermath of all the things he did now. Its awful, but he hasnt been blaming drugs, or passing it off on anything but himself. He is taking responsibility for the things he did. I think that is what he needs to do, but its hard for me to see him express some of the very bad parts of himself that he feels have surfaced. Im not inserting myself to try to take away his feeling though, it things he has to work out to get well. All of this is part of our family sessions, and I think its healthy for both of us, or they would not want us to do it together.

Last night was the same, its emotional. It makes me cry afterward. We spend some time together just feeling our feelings. I get home and its empty without him, but at the same time Im nto ready for him to be there. Its my own feelings I have to work out. I go to counseling later in the week for myself. I want to get through it all, but its very slow.

I feel like he is getting better. Part of it has to be the drugs all leaving and his brain healing. The light is back again in his eyes and it was missing. His parents even noticed it, so I know its not only me. The doctor also told me he is doing good. I feel positive.

Ive not been reading from my book list. I thought I was reading too much maybe, so I have been focusing on non addiction things at home, and with friends, family in my off time. Feels good doing normal things, maybe some of the shock is starting to wear off ? maybe it will find its place soon?

findthelight

I'm not sure if I understand everything correctly due to ignorance, naivieness, whatever you want to call it. Codependency by definition is "the dependence on the needs of, or control of, another. It also often involves placing a lower priority on one's own needs, while being excessively preoccupied with the needs of others." The exact opposite of independence correct? I feel like there is a fine line though. When anyone willingly enters into a loving, healthy(key word I am guessing) relationship one gives up some of their independence to a degree. Falling in love with someone WITHOUT losing yourself is the key. However, I feel lots of loving people are getting a label of being codependent. I guess all the love talk changes when an addict enters?? Whether that person is an addict before the relationship or becomes one during... My opinion is that it is a true disease. A choice to start the use, but choice is gone once one starts-and then the disease of loss of control begins. I do feel they need LOVE without the loss of the other person's self. I feel they need support to get better. Separating the disease from the person is acceptable I feel. Not separating it is like saying a person with Alzheimer's who is acting childlike is just how the person is and always has been. Just my feelings on it-not saying I'm right of course. Am I a codependent having no contact with my ex bf but wanting and hoping he is doing everything to take care of himself and make himself healthy? And looking at the unknown future with an honest hope that he does and that maybe, just maybe we might work things out? And then maybe not. I think of both cases. All the while taking care of me and making sure and living my life. I guess my situation is different because I was unaware of his addiction, he broke up with me and made sure he was out of my life while he works on himself. I'm getting confused because while I went through the heartbreak of my relationship ending, I was very emotional and sad...Am I now a codependent??? I have definitely never been considered a controlling person I don't think-emotional, yes. I do feel like I get too attached to all my loved ones (family, the kids I teach, animals, friends, etc.). I've always thought I was just a softy but now I don't know. I have a strong sense of self and what I want. I also have a very strong faith and a belief in what will be will be. Just confused about this codependency label. I also have so much LOVE for all of the family/friends going through this. Codependent or not, it's hard to separate your love of self with the love you feel for someone in YOUR life-a human being that needs help and you can't do anything all the while seeing that person suffer. Not an easy road for sure.

Ann

This is from the sticky posts at the top of this forum. It's from Melody Beattie's book Codependent no More and is a self assessment to decide of you are codependent.

Personally, I didn't meet ALL the descriptions, but I resembled enough of them that I felt I was looking in a mirror.

Take a read...

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...dependent.html

Lily1918

I also think the "why people respond the way they do" is an excellent read.
I dont know how to post the link.

allforcnm

If your interested in a codependency book I would recommend this one:

Soaring Above Co-Addiction: Helping Your Loved One Get Clean, While Creating the Life of Your Dreams by Lisa Espich

allforcnm

I'm advance, sorry so long.... Im copying this from something I wrote before, don't have time to edit it down tonight:

One of the most difficult aspects of my husbands addiction was dealing with adultery. We had been separated about 5 months when he had an affair that lasted several months with a woman who used drugs. Prior to this, I never would have believed he would have cheated on me because he had always been very open about his personal beliefs on marriage, fidelity, and the values and morals that drove those beliefs.

When we were in marriage counseling, and both doing private therapy- he/we had to really examine actions, and what was underneath the behaviors.

For my husband, there was the added complexity of his using drugs, and specifically cocaine during this time. Medically speaking, cocaine is a sexual stimulant - it's well documented.

But there was more to it than the use of drugs, and he never used it as an excuse. There were also lots of thoughts and feelings going along with the drug use, and delusional thinking because he was often high.

In therapy he had to analyze himself and determine why he did what he did, forgive himself. Through this process of understanding I was able to forgive him also.

Did cheating change who he was at the core? No. His values and beliefs were still the same as the man I married. Drugs changed him, physically, emotionally, mentally while he was in active use.

I feel confident now he could be stranded on an island overnight with naked models, and he would not cheat on me. That's the man I married, he's back.

When we had been separated for about a year during that time of active addiction, I also had an affair. It was with an single man who was a friend of my husbands. He had therefore been in my life for years. He had therefore been in my life for years. When my husband left, they no longer associated. He continued to be a friend to me, helped out with house issues, loved my son, tried to be an emotional support for meOur affair lasted a few weeks.

Never thought I would cheat on my husband, even after a year separation. My beliefs, values went against this. It wasn't a moral failure as I see it, but a weakened emotional state that caused it.

Why did I do it? I was lonely, had a small infant, felt abandoned, felt betrayed by my husbands affair, unresolved anger, stupidly thought at the time he chose drugs over me, being ignorant of how addiction is a disease. I was hurt, scared, felt frumpy as I hadn't yet lost the baby weight.... And on and on.... And here was a really great guy who made it all go away, and also kept saying he wanted to take care of us, be there for my son, and wasnt shy about insisting my husband was a lowlife.

I was very screwed up in my own head.

I had to sort out my own feelings, look at myself, take responsibility for my actions and not make excuses. For a while I blamed my husband, if he hadn't done this, then I would never have done that....But really, it was still mine to own.

So I had to understand what drove my actions in order to forgive myself, and through that I grew stronger as a person.

And again in marriage counseling, We worked through it. My husband forgave me.

So this is what I mean when I say after going through all this, my husband is the same man now that I married (before drugs) same values and beliefs. Drug use and the sickness that goes with it did change him during the active phase. And now he is new and improved, because he has dug deep and looked at himself, knows himself better and is stronger.

It's the same way I feel about myself, I'm saddened by my own behavior during that time, but I learned a lot because of it, and it's now in the past. Im the same person at the core that I was prior to the affair, the work I did just solidified my already existing beliefs and values.

The rehab experience was actually good for me and my husband, through all the work we did - our marriage is much stronger now, healthier, and we don't take it for granted.

OneNightAWeek

When I first came to this site, I was confused about codependency also. First thing I was told was that because my husband has a drug problem, Im automatically codependent. Really? Some people think this, but its not the case. I read about it some and I didn’t fit the description. I had let some things happen that should not have happened in the beginning when I found out my husband was using. I didn’t know how to handle the way he was acting. Ive always been my own person, and although I deeply care about people, that doesn’t make me a codependent. Codependency is talked about so much with addiction because it is something that was defined by Alcoholics Anonymous: from Wikipedia (and there are other sources that verify this but its short and sweet through their explanations): “Historically, the concept of codependence "comes directly out of Alcoholics Anonymous, part of a dawning realization that the problem was not solely the addict, but also the family and friends who constitute a network for the alcoholic” and you have to remember this AA was created in 1935 ! Things were different then, and women’s role in the family was very different ! I think their lives revolved around their husbands a lot more because most women didn’t work outside the home, go to college, they were focused on their family, and their emotions were tied tight to their husband. Wikipedia again says:” Caring for an individual with a physical addiction is not necessarily synonymous with pathology” I feel autonomous from my husband, but I love him. I asked the addiction dr about it, and he said he didn’t see me as a codependent, but I did need to learn about not enabling when my husband was using drugs. He taught me about that instead. I think you have to be careful not to label yourself at random, or to let other people try to label you. I think it can become some kind of obsession of its own, this also from Wikipedia: “Sometimes an individual can, in attempts to recover from codependency, go from being overly passive or overly giving to being overly aggressive or excessively selfish. Many therapists maintain that finding a balance through healthy assertiveness (which leaves room for being a caring person and also engaging in healthy caring behavior) is true recovery from codependency and that becoming extremely selfish, a bully, or an otherwise conflict-addicted person is not”.

Lily1918

But people dont have to be codependent to be enablers. Its is enabling to let an addict be in your life and use. Trust me, I had a TON of enablers and they weren't all codependent but they helped me get high just the same

incitingsilence

As I said never say never. You so missed the point.

Oh and I have to add, a raise of the hand, in the slow learner department. UGH.

I do know your story. I saw that post before.

My opinion for the 2 cents it might be worth.

You are on an open forum, and how your posts have been written (and yes others do this as well) you are shifting everything to the drug as the reason. Even in that new/old post you had to mention the coke/sex connection and that it is documented. That doesn’t have a damn thing to do with anything. A lot of drugs have a sex connection some don‘t and that doesn‘t mean a person won’t in the moment do just what they want whether the drug accentuates some sexual component or not.

Let me be clear, it doesn’t have to do with staying, leaving, forgiving supporting, cheering on or moving on …. devaluing, demoralizing, and dehumanizing anyone, the addicts in the mix included.

You made the choices you did, and that is that. You own that, and it was your right. Just as I have made mine and everyone else makes theirs…thank god we can all change our minds if need be.

We all have to also or will have to in time make peace with all our decision and learn from them no matter if they are deemed good or bad by us or others. Nothing ever is really as it is assigned.

Compartmentalizing, if that is your gig and the way you could get over his actions, that is about you. Again this is an open forum. It is a good thing, but….

Accepting that a person did what they wanted in the moment removes the need to dissect and the need to explain or excuse the behavior away in some if they weren’t an addict….hmm are you so sure? You can not make sense of another’s addiction. The last thing any addict needs is someone to explain away their actions. You don’t understand this do you, at all…. The addict themselves has to make peace with their actions as a whole, not as a this was me using, this was me not, even knowing how uncharacteristic their behavior might have been. The shame can weigh heavy but with us unable to change our past we have to accept and move forward for any chance. You make amends as needed, forgive as you need to, you own your behavior and accept the consequences as your own It sucks, it truly does for so many who have lost it all, their sense of self the most but it is a huge reality of this disease as much as it is a huge part of the process in recovery, hell in just living life.

It is also ok to accept they are who they are. It is ok to heal, to forgive, to learn, to move forward, to stay if that is what you want, to leave…everyone has to live as they see fit. It is really hard to learn without living it your own way.

And yes I more than understand the complexity of the human mind, especially when you aren’t in your right mind. Somewhere along the line drugs aren’t the only easy excuse as to why one might be out of their mind and make decisions that are very uncharacteristic of them. I am sure there are many here who can share how being so wrapped up in the addict in their lives kept them so sick that they made decision or said things that shocked and sickened them, and were very dangerous, but still in the end is was them sadly. Again making peace with our own choices, not explaining away another’s.

Sharing in terms of splitting the addict in two is an unhealthy thing to teach.

You can’t make addiction pretty, can’t explain it with statistics that are motive driven, with research that says this drugs makes you want sex…It doesn’t work like that, it really can’t.

allforcnm

Oh my, yes I understand slow learning…..

Your response does not surprise me, nor does it offend me, please know this.

Since this is an open forum, which I too agree is a good thing….

My point is that I do understand the concepts and beliefs on addiction that you hold so dear, and Im glad they work for you. Its just that they don’t work for me. I openly reject them. Its like putting a square peg in a round hole, It will never work, and I don’t want it to.

My recovery was based on other ideas, and that is what works for me. And that is a good thing. In the end recovery is not about what program you use, or what concepts you believe, or if you compartmentalize, or use splitting techniques. What matters is what works for the individual.

My beliefs and the way I have dealt with addiction in my life, is just as acceptable as the way you have done it. Im pretty sure if I suggested you accept my version, you would reject it also. Ooops.. I think you did just say that. LOL

We should all be happy for each other ….when we see the other person is at peace with their own choices, and comfortable in their own skin. '

And I feel at peace, and my marriage is thriving and healthy.

And newcomers have a wonderful opportunity to define their own beliefs, not get caught in a battle between ideas, concepts, statistics or anything else… because this is an open forum. They can clearly see there is not just one correct thought process…. They should never think they are slow learners, or are not getting it, or are wrong. They are on their own journey.

Ryder731

This is one of the most prideful, smarmy, hubristic (if that is a word) posts I have ever read on this board -- and I do not mean that in a good way.

someoneswife

I don't know what all rehab centers teach. With the one my husband went to they made it clear that I shouldn't want or expect my exact old sober husband back. Basically his thinking was skewed when he starting using. Thinking it was ok to start at all. So trying to fix the things that made him think it was ok to start in the first place. Going way far back in his life and fixing the things that kind of guided the path that you have probably ignored. So it was not two different people. He is one person. He has to fix the things he did while using and work on the things that got him to that place to begin with. In family therapy they described it as him working towards to being version 2.0 of himself. He will always be an addict even while sober. The goal should be to come out as a better version of yourself not just like your old self. I really liked the way they approached it.

someoneswife

I should add that I have to do the same. I have to follow my own path and fix my thinking. While addiction is hard to deal with I've learned that recovery can be a struggle as well. I don't want to be like my old self. I want to be better. I want to fix my thinking. The bad things have shaped who I am and I wouldn't change that. Every hard obstacle is a chance for self discovery. A chance to grow. Everyone does things they regret using or not. Our journey is our own for us to discovery. The beautiful thing about al anon and these forums is you can take what you want and leave the rest. Although if you come with an open mind it really helps.

BlueChair

((ALLFOR)) I was going to reply tomorrow, but now I feel the need to say something. I read your post earlier today and have been thinking about it all day. It is exactly what I needed, and I think it took a lot of courage for you to write all that out for everyone to read. I cant believe anyone would insult your feelings on such a personal matter, and I wanted you to know I appreciated your sharing it with me. My husband cheated during his relapse, and out of everything he did, it’s the hardest for me to accept and forgive. I don’t care about the money he took out of our savings, because it can be replaced in time, what happened at work that was all his not mine, but breaking our vows really hurts. Ive been working on it with the counselor on my own, and my husband and the family counselor say its time we talk about it together, but I still cant do it because I don’t know what to say. It makes me hopeful to hear that you were able to work it out with your husband. I hope I can do it because its what I want, I just don’t know how.

(( SOMEONESWIFE )) Im sorry about before, I didnt mean it like it came out on the keyboard. Im sort of emotional about vows right now. I hope you can now mabybe understand. my husband is doing the same thing also, looking back in his past because there is something there, and he is taking responsibility, and Im trying to work on myself, i want to be better too.