Chino

Codependency is not a recognized disorder (yet). It's a learned set of behavioral traits that everyone exhibits to an extent, from time to time. When it's out of control and causes problems (social, work, personal relationships) then it's crossing a threshold into disorders/diseases. That's why it's often being recognized these days as addiction all by itself.

KariSue

Now I'm more confused than ever after reading that list. My husband is an ACA. He is very uncomfortable with yelling. To me yelling is not ideal but it is just a raised voice and doesn't mean anything further except that the yeller is frustrated and angry at that moment. He is also a workaholic. Other than that, the list doesn't seem to fit him. It is possible that maybe he has other things on the list but I can't tell.

He does seem to have more trouble dealing with our AS though. It takes him longer to get on the same page with me but he does get there. Just slower.

Who knows?

Kari

KariSue

I read the sticky and even had the book by Melodie Beattie. I couldn't relate except I 'sometimes' do those things. I know I enabled and for too long but feel I have done less and less of it as time goes on. Many times I have been a very slow learner and sometimes I was just weak but, overall, I can't relate to the list.

I was going to do another thread on it but realized I'm not that interested in discussing it after all.

Thanks for your explanation!

Kari

pravchaw

Codependency as I understand is addiction to a person who in turn is addicted to a substance (or porn, gambling etc). Being affected by the addiction of a loved one, sadness and trying to do something about it (even if ineffective) is not an addiction (codependency). I think that term is bandied about too much here. I see my feelings more like the stages of grief.

bluebelle

When I think of the stages of grief, I think of the Kubler-Ross model: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

pravchaw

The point is not all grief and coping is co-dependency just like not all habits are addictions. The key difference is compulsive behavior + long term negative consequences.

chicory

by Kindeyes.

My Kindeyes, this takes me back to my childhood, when I learned to 'help' my parents, in order to relieve the pain of the situation. How sad, to have to take care of the ones who were supposed to be taking care of me.

I learned to deny my needs, stuff any feelings of discontent, to pretend nothing was wrong, and that I did not need anything....just to make it easier on them. I guess it helps me to remember, they did the best THEY could do, being sick people. Pretending sick people are not sick,,,, that is just insane. but it was the only way we could survive the terribleness of it. denial.

ugh. there is no real excuse for me to live that way now. I fight to recognize my weaknesses and when I am in denial. it is so hard.

bluebelle

I noticed that the picture did not list denial as a stage of grief.

Denial is a big one for me. For a long time I was in denial that my bf had a problem. I was also in denial that I was having any ill effects from his drug use. Once I started to realize he was an addict, I started to think it was somehow my duty to convince him that he had a drug problem. That's how I ended up at SR. Like many people, when I first reached out at SR it was so that I could find help for my bf. Instead, I found help for myself. It's funny how that works!!

bluebelle

Thank you for explaining Kindeyes' statement in a way so that I better understand it. I did the same thing. I "helped" my parents, and that was to make my life more manageable for myself. This goes beyond the "good feelings" that you get when you are giving to others. My "helping" had to do with control of the situation and control of others.

February13

My mom sometimes talked about how I had an eye infection when I was 2 and she would try to get my dad to help by holding my eye open while she squirted ointment in. Basically he had better things to do and I would tell her that it was okay that I could hold my little eye open myself. I remember my sister was always having tantrums and my mom didn't know how to handle it,like she must have been feeling that her life was unmanageable, and it was scary for me. By being helpful I felt that things would be better.Easier. Less scary. I don't think I ever asked for anything, even when we went shopping and saw a bunch of toys. I don't think I ever had a tantrum. This is kind of shocking to think that even at 2 years old I was so focused on others. I don't think I ever knew what I wanted. Other that wanting for things to be better.

Come to think of it even in preschool/kindergarden/grade 1 my one friend was very possibly a codependent as were most of my friends as a teenager. I don't think we truly knew how to play even.

For many years I lived like I didn't need ANYTHING. I was even homeless at times and though I sometimes felt like a failure, I really didn't believe I deserved any better.

This stuff goes way back.

Kindeyes

Bingo.

I won't point the finger at anyone else regarding codependency. It doesn't matter to me whether someone is codependent or not. Not my issue to deal with. With that said I will state (without care of what anyone else thinks about it) that I am a codependent. I believe that codependence is addiction for the very reason highlighted in the above quote by Pravchaw. My compulsive, obsessive focus on trying to fix (control) my son's addiction (and the resulting negative consequences) to the detriment of myself and others who love me was not "normal". It was addiction at it's finest.

It's ok for someone to believe that they are not codependent. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are in denial. People can be negatively impacted by someone else's drug or alcohol addiction without being codependent. However, I was in denial for many years because of a lack of education and understanding on the topic. It was a huge lightbulb moment for me when I was finally able to say "I am obsessed to a seriously unhealthy degree by my son's addiction (and life). I am codependent." Because once I had that realization, I could begin the very important task of taking the focus off of him and beginning to focus on fixing me.

gentle hugs
ke

pravchaw

Good build, Kindeyes.

The key here is self-recognition of compulsive behaviors and the negative consequences.

My intense concern for my son is not yet pathological. Its a natural emotion one has for one's beloved child. I am not suffering any long term health consequences . I have to stay self aware that my concern does not turn into an obsession that starts to negatively to impact my health, relationships, work etc.

LoveMeNow

Thank you KE for sharing your ES&H. You are so right. The only thing that matters is that I know I am codependent. The only person I can change is me and that in itself is a difficult task.

Healthy people have healthy relationships. Your son is very blessed to have such a smart and healthy mother. It's amazing when we stop playing our own part in the dance of addiction (including codependency) and work on ourselves - how many things and circumstances change for the better.

Thanks for the reminder. i hope you have a wonderful day.

OneNightAWeek

I don’t consider myself to be codependent, not to the degree that it has allowed long term negative consequences into my life, but in the beginning of my husbands addiction I did allow short term negative consequences. A learning curve, or a process of grief makes sense to me though. When something happens like your husband becomes addicted and starts acting completely different, it throws you off, and it takes a while to get on that learning curve. I think its good to make people aware, and I think I first became aware when I was watching a Dr Phil show that was about an abusive husband and wife. Neither one seemed to see how far out there things had got for them, and he simply asked the wife why she put up with his treating her bad, and why she kept calling him back for more mistreatment. A lightbulb moment for me, and I said to myself wake up, this is not you, something is off here. And since then I think Im aware, and Ive started along that learning or acceptance curve with my situation. I think there are some mixed up ideas on codependency, its associated with too many normal behaviors, and I think in some cases worrying about it can become its own unhealthy obsession.

Chino

A perfectly acceptable synonym for co-dependency is co-addiction.

Addiction with short term consequences is still addiction. A drug addict who bottoms early yet safely is still a drug addict. I don't see how it's any different for a co-addict

Me too.

Serenity began for me when I was finally able to say "I'm a recovering co-dependent"

OneNightAWeek

But where do you draw the line with short term consequences? Is it only the fact that your compulsively drawn to behaving in ways that are unhealthy, controlling, addictive? It seems like it has lot to do with the way a person thinks. Like if I feel I dont deserve better, or I need to fix this because I feel like its my job, or this is what I was raised to do and dont know any different.
(Just trying to understand).

In my case, when I talk of short term negative consequences it is really about the negative feelings I experienced, after I gave in to what I feel was basically bullying by my husband. It happened over a matter of couple months, and like my username one night a week, although not every week during that time. My husband has always been kind and loving, but when he would binge over Friday and Saturday then he would get loving but aggressive is the best way I can describe it. I don’t think of my giving in to his bullying as being a co-addiction, or codependency issue that I need to work on, or recover from. I think I realized I was allowing myself to be put into a situation where I felt minimized by my husband and it was unacceptable. Sort of like the person who goes out with friends and gets drunk on the weekends, and then feels like crap. After a few weeks the person looks at them-self and says I like my friends, but this is making me feel lousy, and Im going to stop. I don’t think that person is necessarily an addict, because they quickly recognize negative consequences to their behavior and they stop repeating the behavior. Or even a person that gets one DUI, it doesn’t always mean they are an alcoholic.

In my case, I asked about codependency when I talked to the addiction specialist and he didn’t seem to think it was an issue for me after we talked, but said it was more of an enabling problem because I was not being honest with my husband about my feelings, and how his behavior was impacting me, and our relationship. That part made sense to me. He is also the one that said it was good for me to talk to my husband about his drug use, let him share his feelings with me, learn about addiction, and try to make his getting help something that was acceptable, and comfortable. None of that is bad for me unless I become OCD about it.

chickaree777

Kindeyes, you summed up how I function perfectly. I am always concerned about how others feel and if anyone is upset I am the one to try to make them feel better. Their discomfort makes me uncomfortable. It is very hard for me to allow another person (especially someone I care about) to be with their own discomfort. I'm sure I do this with my own son.... sigh....

Kindeyes

When I was young, I was out partying with my friends (with relative frequency). I was sowing my wild oats a bit.....but when I had trouble waking up due to a night of excess or didn't feel too good.......or was embarrassed by my own behavior the night before.....I realized that perhaps drinking too much wasn't such a good idea. And I curtailed that behavior. I could control it. I could stop it. I wasn't an alcoholic.

My obsessiveness with my son's addiction WAS pathological. I couldn't stop it. I couldn't control it. It controlled ME. It kept me up at night. I couldn't concentrate. I had terrible gut problems (that resulted in the loss of 1/2 of my colon--therefore I also refer to myself as a semi-colon). I got sick. Very very very sick....physically, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually. I was a "low bottom" codependent. lol.

If someone is able to see that the effects of another's drinking/drugging is having a negative impact on them and they can quickly and easily detach (emotionally and psychologically) from the situation......and deal with it in a rational manner....that's not what codependence looks like. Codependence (like addiction) is non-discriminatory. It doesn't care what sex you are, what color your skin is, what your IQ is, how educated you are, your religion, how much money you have, or anything else. It isn't a matter of lack of intelligence or lack of anything.

Codependence (just like addiction) is not an issue of morality.

Just like addiction or alcoholism.....and just as Pravchaw mentioned.....self realization is the key. Is it possible to be codependent and not know it? Absolutely. Is it possible to be codependent and in denial? Absolutely.

There is no shame in being codependent (there's no joy in it either)....it just "is". There is no useful purpose in making judgments about who is or who is not codependent (unless that is a self assessment). It isn't my job to make someone else aware of their codependent behaviors......that would be oh so codependent of me. lol. I share my own codependence for those who want to understand codependent tendencies. If someone else can relate to it, great. If not, that's great too!

This is a great thread....and there have been many great threads on codependence because it is so common when alcoholism or drug addiction is affecting loved ones. When someone has an AHA! moment and recognizes their own codependent behaviors and begins to do the work to correct those behaviors......that's just cool.

Love you guys!

gentle hugs
ke

LoveMeNow

I agree with you Kindeyes but.....lol

When I first joined here, I was in such denial, I was so enmeshed with my husbands addiction, believed drugs were the whole problem and if he just stopped, our life's would wonderful again.

There were many long time, wise posters at the time who pointed out how my own thinking had become distorted. They challenged every post I made, often times made me angry and confused the heck out of me. I don't believe that was codependent of them. They knew I needed to be shook out of denial and thankfully many deemed me teachable (as I was told later) to help me find the truth about me. I am forever grateful that I stuck around because there were many times I wanted to leave. Lol. I am forever grateful they helped me see what I couldn't but was so obvious.

jerect

Same here LMN... I'm so grateful for people like Anvil who gave me the toughest love out there.. She was so instrumental in the early part of my recovery.. There were others too that gave very strong advice..

My ex's drug use was only part of the problem.. The biggest part of my problem was myself because I was choosing to stay in a situation that did not serve me.. It took several very hard landings for me to see the light of day... I'm so grateful that my HP led me to this board when I was googling ways to fix my addict