Suggestions from the unpeturbed please.

Old 06-19-2013, 03:27 PM
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Suggestions from the unpeturbed please.

I go to a weekly Nar-Anon meeting and truly love it and the people who attend. This week we had a speaker who is an addiction specialist who specializes in family therapy.

He began with a story about the twelve steps. His story began talking about Dr. Bill and Bob and how AA and the twelve steps began back in 1930. He ended with telling us how his success rate with addicts is 65%.

For those who don't know, it was Dr. Bob and Bill. The twelve steps were not written in 1930. Lois didn't write the 'To wives' section of the Big Book - and no ones success rate is 65%.

I feel that some sort of action is necessary but I am perturbed that he gave a sales pitch for his practice under the guise of enlightening desperate people about recovery. That said, I am always wary of taking action when I am perturbed. So I would welcome some suggestions from the non-perturbed. Thanks.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:36 PM
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Hello legna

My personal experience is that the world is full of self-apointed experts. Not just in the field of recovery and mental health. Chasing them all down would take far longer than my entire lifetime... and what would I acomplish? I would just become a self-apointed expert and taking down self-apointed experts.

What I have learned is that the people who most impressed me during my recovery were not the experts. It was the quiet, dependable and gentle people who went about their life helping others without making any spectacle about it. Those are the people I try to emulate. I find that people that lead by example, instead of by proclamation, seem to last year after year. The experts tend to vanish rather quickly, without any help from me.

Mike
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:39 PM
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I know I pressed the 'thanks' button, but it didn't seem like enough. So...

*hugs*
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:39 PM
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well, this was an invited guest. by virtue of a committee or group conscience vote? it seems to me since his "message" was not only flawed in it's facts, but also skewed towards HIS addiction "cure" rate, perhaps this should be brought up for a group conscience, or at a business/committee meeting? no matter how much we may as individuals take umbrage with what someone else shares at a meeting, we are no greater than the group....but as a member OF the group we have the freedom to share our concerns WITH the group.

also demonstrates why we need to be so careful when inviting "outsiders" or professional to "speak" at meetings. it doesn't sound like he was sharing his ES&H. good for you for noticing the discrepancies and CARING about how that might impact your group.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:42 PM
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Bad information and faulty statistics are posted on this forum all the time. Heck, we even turn them into stickies. What can ya do? People are going to believe what they want to believe, and if it gives them hope (albeit false hope) no harm done. He will make some $$$ off of the families of loved ones. But that's why the target audience of interventionists, doctors with a cure, and rehabs IS the desperate families because they are the ones with the money. Sure, you can take him on as a cause and maybe win the battle, but one person isn't going to win the war on those who exploit the suffering.

Good luck. <said sincerely>
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:44 PM
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Nar-Anon in my town does not follow the close guidelines/suggestions carefully crafted by the Al-Anon Family Groups World Service office. In my attendance at the local Nar-Anon I, too, was surprised by the handling of the meetings and by what seemed to be inexperience or lack of education about meeting format, including the 12 Step traditions I always relied on: no outside professionals presenting to the group, no outside materials being brought in (this Nar-Anon group wanted to show a film about addiction which a member thought was good). One member ended a meeting with the reciting of the entire Serenity Prayer which, after the first four lines, becomes no longer just spiritual but concretely Christian.

I watched many diversions like this during the 6 months I attended. I asked myself if I wanted to take the responsibility to ask the group about a business meeting to discuss format, guidelines, etc. I decided I did not. The group had been meeting for 10 years and I'd been there a few months and likely would not become a longtime member of the group. I decided to take what helped me from the meetings, and leave the outcome of the group's format to the Higher Power of the group.

That was my own solution, legna, which may not work for you. I no longer attend the meeting, and part of the reason was, in fact, that I missed the emotional safety of the Al-Anon format, which protects members from outside influences, counselors making pitches, and specific religious tenets.
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
it seems to me since his "message" was not only flawed in it's facts, but also skewed towards HIS addiction "cure" rate, perhaps this should be brought up for a group conscience, or at a business/committee meeting?
*nods* I like this too... detach from him and the feelings he elicited with acceptance and love AND share my thoughts at the next business meeting. An excellent idea and thank you very much!
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:06 PM
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Only speaking in terms of codependency, perhaps it would be best to let it go, and assume all the members of the group are able to take in the information and assimilate it for themselves.
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Old 06-19-2013, 05:31 PM
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allfor, you are missing the point...not ALL members may KNOW the backstory. and may be given false hope hearing stuff like a 65% cure rate. many 'anon members arrive scared and trying still to FIX their partners. this was not another member sharing, this was an outside professional.... at the very least this touches on 5 of the first 6 Traditions....

1. Our common welfare should come first; personal progress for the greatest number depends upon unity.

2. For our group purpose there is but one authority - a loving God as he may express himself in our group conscience. Our leaders are but trusted servants; they do not govern.

3. The relatives and friends of addicts, when gathered together for mutual aid, may call themselves a Nar-Anon Family Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. The only requirement for membership is that there be a problem of addiction in a relative or friend.

4. Each group should be autonomous, except in matters affecting another group, Nar-Anon or Narcotics Anonymous as a whole.

5. Each Nar-Anon Family Group has but one purpose; to help families and friends of addicts. We do this by practising the twelve Steps, by encouraging and understanding the addict and by welcoming and giving comfort to families and friends of addicts.

6. Nar-Anon Family Groups ought never endorse, finance or lend our name to any outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property and prestige divert us from our primary spiritual aim. Although a separate entity, we should always co-operate with Narcotics Anonymous.

perhaps you haven't spent much time involved in a 12 step recovery group enough to understand the 12 steps, 12 traditions and 12 concepts that are the framework of AA, NA, NarAnon, etc.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:02 PM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
allfor, you are missing the point...not ALL members may KNOW the backstory. and may be given false hope hearing stuff like a 65% cure rate. many 'anon members arrive scared and trying still to FIX their partners. this was not another member sharing, this was an outside professional.... at the very least this touches on 5 of the first 6 Traditions....
Hi Anvil. When I wrote my post this is why I said " Only speaking in terms of codependency" and why I sent Legna a message suggesting he follow the protocol of his program if he thought it broke the rules.

But again, PERSONALLY I still think it is best to allow people the dignity to sort through information on their own. I don't know the whole story with what was presented, only Legna and those present do. So what if someone was curious and they actually made an appointment to talk to the addiction doctor about the program he offers? If they have the money, then it is their choice. There are in fact statistics that offer recovery rates (without relapse) at that level by following specific medical protocols. Heck, in fact the airline pilots association touts over a 90% rate of recovery for its pilots if they follow protocol. Some may not agree with these findings, and that is their choice. But that is what it is all about I think: choice.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:00 PM
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So what if someone was curious and they actually made an appointment to talk to the addiction doctor about the program he offers? If they have the money, then it is their choice.
It is absolutely their choice, and its their responsibility to research which programs they find credible, to research all their options, but unfortunately the reality often is that the loved ones of the addicted have been living in crisis mode for a long time and are desperate for answers, for help, for some relief....they are vulnerable. A Nar-anon meeting is not a place for presenting recovery options for the addicted, there are other venues for that if that's what one is seeking, but Nar-anon is not that place. Newcomers hearing that doctor speak at that meeting could certainly easily assume that Nar-anon endorses his practice. Why wouldn't they? He's speaking at the meeting. The Newcomer is not going to be well versed enough (or at all) on the traditions to understand that he/She must listen critically and that Nar-anon does not in fact endorse the doc, but they just had him as a guest speaker at the meeting (big head scratcher there anyway)...so yes, it is up to the group as a whole to ensure that the meeting is a neutral place for newcomers.

When my son was diagnosed with autism, I would have gladly cut off both my arms and legs if an "expert" told me it would help my son. Desperation for those we love can cloud our judgement, and unfortunately there are those who will prey on that.

Legna, for what my opinion is worth, being perturbed is an appropriate feeling to experience in this case. Being perturbed can drive us to take positive action toward solving a problem. Xo
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:18 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
A Nar-anon meeting is not a place for presenting recovery options for the addicted, there are other venues for that if that's what one is seeking, but Nar-anon is not that place.
Worth repeating, excellent point.
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Old 06-19-2013, 11:18 PM
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When I first started going to Nar-Anon, I thought some of the "rules" were just silly or overly-controlling; then, with time, I began to see the wisdom of the collective experience and began to understand how the traditions work together to create a safe place of (potential) recovery for its members.

I'm a pretty unconventional guy, but when it comes to my Nar-Anon group I now like things "by the book" – I would say that this is something to discuss in a meeting of group conscience (that what it's called in Argentina -- I'm not sure what it is in the States). There is a responsibility that the group has to itself, as a unit, to maintain its purpose and not turn into something else. Beyond his self-aggrandizing, a speaker who basically evangelizes substance addiction recovery isn't someone who *should* be speaking at a Nar-Anon group, in my opinion. That information might be important to many members, but it's not what Nar-Anon is about and only helps to put the focus on "the other" and not on oneself.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:00 AM
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No one likes people who take advantage of people when they are hurting.
Self-aggrandizing sales pitches seem to fall in that category.

If someone had a 65% cure (or a car that REALLY runs on water alone)---you
wouldn't have to sell it.

Robert Ringer (noted author of the 70s/80s) coined a term I liked:

SHMEXPERTS

(I'm no expert but I suspect he was trying to combine 'schmuck' & 'expert')
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:25 AM
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This is a topic that would be brought up in a business meeting and a group concscience would address the matter in retrospect so that this type of speaker could be avoided in the future. We don't bring in any speakers who are there to speak as a representative of a recovery center or touting a method of recovery for addiction as that is contradictory to our purpose (focus on ourselves rather than the addict). Most of our speakers are from NA simply telling their story. We did have a speaker from drug court but we specifically asked her to stay focused on the families of the addicts and how they help or hender the process. We discussed the validity and appropriateness of her coming quite thoroughly before inviting her to speak.

Personally, I feel I can learn something from anyone so I would take what I need and leave the rest. But I also feel it's very important to maintain the integrity of the traditions. The overall health and welfare of the group should come first.....always.

gentle hugs
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:52 AM
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I second English Garden's post. I too found my local NarAnon meeting to stray from the traditions. One meeting had other 12-step literature and events. They did bring in speakers for our closed meetings. One NarAnon I went to allowed the facility where they met to not charge them any rent, so in gratitude they would give that facility a donation for one of their charities. Unfortunately, I questioned that which essentially ended my ability to be part of that group because they did not like my interfering with what had worked for them for years.

Bringing that up in a group conscience is a good idea. The best that can happen is that the group will get serious about those traditions and concepts - as well as you will have had the experience of learning how to stand up for the right thing in a mature way. The worst that can happen is the group will ostracize you (it's pretty subtle, but you can sense it). But that will not change the fact that you will have had the positive experience of learning how to stand up for the right thing in a mature way.

Let us know how it goes....
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