legna

Just thought I'd come in and share a bit of where I am at today. My wife is in her seventh day of a treatment center where there is no visiting. Yesterday was a tough day for me; it was our wedding anniversary and we aren't allowed to visit. I was able to delivered some cards and flowers and she was able to call me so we had that...and I'm grateful.

Anywho, probably not a popular idea...I'm guessing because I've never seen such an idea here...but I've got an evolving idea on the difference between healthy behavior and unhealthy behavior as it pertains to my actions within my relationship.

I want my wife with me, period. Of course I want her clean and healthy, but I realize that this may not be possible. As I've taken a look at some of my behaviors through her relapse, I've concluded that any behavior of mine that is meant to be manipulative is not healthy. Any behavior of mine that has been coerced by my wife or her addiction is not healthy.

I understand addiction. She cannot make me feel guilt, shame, ...anything really - I own my emotions. Nothing she does or can do can is a reflection on me - I am a great husband and I love her with all that I am. I owe her nothing but my love and so all debts are paid in full. If she wants to use, there is nothing I can do about it...except to accept it.

These convictions have led me to an unusual conclusion. I'm staying with my wife. It may be that I'll have to sell everything we have and put it into a trust fund that pays me a weekly allowance that can pay for our cardboard box under the bridge but I'm at peace with that.

I guess what I'm saying is, for me at this point in the journey, unhealthy only means me giving up the power of choice out of the available options. If I am driven to a choice of life under a bridge with her or life in a mansion without her - I'm choosing the bridge. The kids are grown, it's just me and her...choice is freedom, I choose a life with her in it.

Hanna

Hi Legna,
That's a valid decision.

For me being healthy means setting boundaries about what I am willing to live with and what I will do when I'm in a situation that I cannot abide. If you set boundaries now then staying with her could possibly be a healthy decision. It's when things begin to happen that you cannot live with that you need to do something different. It sounds like you are okay with living like you two have been living. If you aren't willing to examine yourself to determine appropriate boundaries you may find yourselves in a crisis without tools to manage.

You will also need to steer clear of enabling her, which is possible to do while still living with someone. If you aren't willing to do that, then you are not working in her best interest.

My .10.

Peace,
Hanna

LoveMeNow

Legna ~ since you didn't ask for any advice and knowing unsolicited advice is codependent, I will just offer you both my prayers. May God be with you and your wife during your journey.

Maylie

You sound at peace with your decision and if that is what will make you happy and what will make you feel fulfilled in your life then go for it!

In the end we are the ones that have to live with our decisions, no one else. You need to do what you feel is best for you.

incitingsilence

I stayed, I don’t tend to worry about what others think of that.

Why did I stay, well why leave, in that moment anyway when it became really clear that everything was madness and nothing more …. Nor anything less than. How could it be with heroin milling about creating insanity in my head and I wasn’t even using it! I couldn’t even use it as some cheap excuse as to why I was as I was … wtf, well that sucked. I was making myself crazy for what reason…and out of love, as if my actions were loving. I don’t find codependency as loving, more twisted and evil in my head anyway. Oh the things I could write.

I didn’t at that time even know who I was anymore …. And heroin, did it deserve all this attention, all this power I was giving away? Well it didn’t, but it sure as hell loved that I was on the crazy train.

This is your life, if you choose to stay then you do. Don‘t get hung up on the fact that you are staying, cause hell even I know that everyone is entitled to change their mind and nothing is set in stone. And no nothing will be set in stone from what you wrote above. Also you get no trophy for staying or cross to nail yourself on (which I think you understand)… you get no trophy for leaving either. It ain’t a big deal either way, none of this is the scope of it all.

I found in time the same, I was taking the chance. I was going to have strong boundaries and also in the sense of what lines were not mine to cross. I was going to work on me, learn about myself, find my whys, not enable, and I also was not going to protect anyone from the consequences of their actions, although the last one I tended to have way before the madness. I was not going to gauge my feelings on another’s actions and I was going to make sure that I kept the lessons I learned close no matter the side. Because I know the receiving end of a families insanity as well.

I know so many families that made it through this, and while it is so hard to do, and takes so much time it tends to only work if both sides are doing the work for a chance at any together. But for you, yourself, if you just keep working on you then it doesn’t matter what choice you make today because you have a good view of what you need and want. And while you write of the box under the overpass, I doubt you will go there with her, you won’t be able too if you are taking care of you first. And are not enabling or contributing to her addiction. And if you do go, then all of this was just some head game you played with yourself and you weren’t working it as you should have.

I always tell everyone with kids in this no matter the age to give them a voice, so just remember even if your children are adults, they still should have a voice, be encouraged to always work on themselves too and be respected for their feelings.

And since I have no issue giving unsolicited advice, from experience. If you want the truth, don’t ask for it…What I mean by this is. She is in a program now, only encourage her to follow along with what she wants to do as she goes through all the phases. Allow her to be a capable adult, because she is. Other than that you have no opinion, cause it isn’t about you. Allow her to learn from her choices. Allow her also to find her answers, when she speaks and asks questions turn it back to her, let her find the answer, don’t help, don’t give opinions …. She can find her way if she is ready. Be patient with any need to know. If she is getting well in time she will address many of the questions that may have plagued you and will share her why’s as she is able to accept where her addiction took her. The past is over, stay in today. I find a clean slate is the only way. That doesn’t mean you forget but you sure as hell better forgive or don’t even waste you time or hers staying around … if you are choosing to stay then the past is over, make peace with it, amends for your part, learn from it, REALLY LEARN, and move on.

I do wish you both the best.

divinespark

Need to solicit some advice here...BF is clean for close to a week now, but I still haven't "moved on". Now I am spending WAY too much time reading about PAWS etc. I know this is going to be a journey but I need to focus my attention on other things (eg my own to do list, my own life) but I am having difficulty. Going to an Al-Anon meeting on Thursday. Any advice until I get there would be most appreciated.

Vale

legna,

Choice is freedom,and your missive is an unusually powerful one.
I am not sure if I would choose otherwise.My Lady and I have trekked
3 1/2 decades together;if it came to the bridge with her or the
mansion without her-------------you might just have some company
under that bridge.

After the wedding ( a big party for show complete with rent-a-preacher
and chock FULL of people.....) ........comes real life.Our secret vows,
exchanged later---after the party was done and the guests were gone,were
not of a religious or civil or formal nature---but simply....

"I've got your back....to the end"

Doing "what others think" is what children do.Adults make their own
decisions---and accept the consequences as adults-in-full.

That being said,I hope my wife (or I) never get addicted to anything.

(I don't like bridges!)

LoveMeNow

I won't live anywhere with someone who lies or manipulates me ever again...be it a mansion or under a bridge. I value my sanity far too much. Gods gift of restoring it will not be taken for granted....ever!!!

Just my opinion!

legna

This was kind of my point though - poorly worded as I tried to make it. My sanity is only at risk if I fail to accept things as they are and try to convince myself of a lie. I mean, if she's in active addiction, of course she is going to lie - it is part of the disease. It's resisting what is that makes things crazy. It's sort of like getting mad at a cancer patient for getting down to an unhealthy weight during chemo...(okay, not a perfect example but work with me).

Vale

================================================== =======
Yeah,the lying part confuses me.
All addicts lie,virtually all the time.It's kind of pointless to "get mad" at
them for it.I think the losing weight during chemo is a PERFECT example.

cynical one

A deliberate learned behavior vs an inescapable physical symptom?

I'm a codependent in recovery, my behavior became unacceptable, I own that and am thankful to those around me who called me out on it instead of allowing me to use it as an excuse.

Vale

Cynical,

The context was the feedback loop.Addict lies (they ALL do,constantly).Friends &
family of addict call her worthless POS.Addict comes to believe they are worthless POS,
then turn to DOC to escape the horror of the reality they have created for themselves.

More to the point,I think that if insulting,hurting,making them feel as bad as
possible about themselves WORKED----there would be no addiction (they certainly
don't lack for people telling them they are worthless/losers,etc).

Perhaps the chemo is not a perfect analogy.But having lost my best friend to it
(last year).....it IS a choice,and QUITE escapable.He bet on the Hail Mary
(Stage IV,lung,liver,brain) and suffered grievously those last few months....
.from his choice to do chemo.

As far as a deliberate,learned behavior.....I agree with that.In the same sense that
if one's airways were obstructed and the only way to reopen them was to "tell a lie".

(if it's lie or die----we ALL will choose the former...human physiology)

Torture subjects (no matter the political stripe) ......will tell their inquisitors whatever it
takes to stop the process.That is why it is of decidedly limited utility and mostly discredited
(except by armchair generals and lovers of Tom Clancy novels).

My choice was disengaging before I ever "let loose" and hurt her feelings.If I thought
it would do any good I would have done so.It is my choice and I own it.

I tried a different tack in April 1996.My closest cousin.We were very tight growing up,
closer than a brother at the time.But we fell out of touch,as I went west & he stayed
in MASS.He got addicted to smack.I had zero interaction (or knowledge of such) until
2 days before he died (family VERY ashamed/tight lipped).Tough love was the order of
the day back then-----and so I told him what a disappointment he was to the family,to me
(the older cousin he adored),to his girl,to humanity......what a total POS he was in general.

My cousin K________ died that night (O.D.)----and you might say I lost my faith in
the operational effectiveness of cruelty as a weapon of choice against addiction.I also
think that may have something to do (penance do 'ya think?!)
with my interfering in the addictive nightmare of another.

One of the oldest lessons in humanity is that the ends do not justify the means.
Those pompous dilettantes who penned those clumsy 'tough love' pamphlets ----before
addiction science was even in it's infancy----they didn't pull the trigger on the
decision to nuke the psyche of my cousin.....I DID. K________ went from here to the hereafter
thinking his adored older cousin hated him.



It was never so.So with that little bit of background my hesitancy to click off my
safety and aim my weapon at the heart of another suffering human soul might be better
understood.I sure would like another chance at that last 48hrs of K_____'s life.....

.....but that's not how life operates,does it?

I was pretty sure I was doing the right thing---he'd "snap out of it" and
thank me for the effort.When we got the call the following morning---
I honestly thought it was a practical joke.......but it wasn't.

Sunshine2

Vale, I have a very different understanding of tough love. It does not mean you insult the addict. It simply means that you let them carry the consequences of their own behaviour. You stop rescuing them, you stop giving them money and you stop giving them a soft landing. You stop sharing the addiction burden.

I can understand that you were left with guilt. When my brother committed suicide, the hardest part was to deal with the guilt that we all felt, especially me as we were very close. If only I did this or that different.... You know the drill. I came to see that guilt was the most self-destructive feeling of them all.

Feeling guilty does not mean that the outcome would have been different with different behaviour. You could have told your cousin how much you loved him that evening and given him a place to stay and the result could still have been the same.

As an example, friends of mine took in an addict and showered him with love. Within three months they found him on his bed...dead. Addicts die because of overdosing, not because of conversations they have.

Tough love typically kicks in when you UNDERSTAND that nothing you say makes any different to the addict. Not love and not insults. It kicks in when you understand that being a safe place to fall makes it worse for the addict in the long-term. Not all addicts recover when their loved ones withdraw from the circus, but many more do than when they are constantly enabled.

And yes, this is only my opinion, but one I formed after trying all the different options available to me, for many years, over and over.

I am sorry about your cousin and I hope you don't still live with the guilt.

Sunshine2

Legna, I just wanted to add that I think your choice is a valid one. If you can live with an addict and see the behaviour for what it is and not get emotionally affected by it, why not?

It is when co-habitation becomes to painful to bear, that we look for other solutions. I wish you luck.

Kindeyes

The whole concept of Nar-Anon is that we do what we need to do for ourselves to find serenity....whether the addict continues to use or not. It sounds like you are finding your way to serenity. That's what it's all about. There is NOTHING anywhere in Nar-Anon literature that I have ever read that says that the only way to find serenity is to leave them. That may be one way but certainly not the only way. Acceptance is a valid choice.

On the topic of tough love. I don't believe in it per se. When I divorced my XAH, I did it for me and my son because I couldn't find acceptance. The pain of staying with my XAH exceeded the fear of leaving him.....so I left. It was what I needed to do for me. It wasn't an easy choice.....because I loved him.....but 20/20 hindsight confirms that it was the right choice for me. When my son grew up and became addicted, I would go through long periods of no contact with him because it was what I needed to do to take care of myself. There was not a punitive intent in those periods of no contact.....it was self preservation.

There is no useful purpose in telling anyone that they are a piece of s**t......except perhaps to make ourselves feel superior (ego). And like Vale said, it can leave us with deep feelings of guilt and remorse. Personally, guilt and remorse feels pretty crappy to me so I'd rather not do things that can lead me down that path.

It is possible to have boundaries, hold them tight, and not be mean about it. But it took me way too long to figure out how to do that well.

You and your dear wife will be in my prayers, Legna. Your wife is lucky to have a husband who understands her disease and can do what he needs to do to maintain serenity.

gentle hugs
ke

soberlicious

I second this, Angel...you are so wise and so loving. <3

Vale

legna will navigate the path he sees fit,as will we all.
As with all fellow SR navigators on this ocean of life,
we wish him serenity on his journey.

Vale

================================================== ===
Thanks,SS.That helped.

I have no doubt that I do still feel guilt.How else can one explain
parting with $10K+ to help a person one step removed from a stranger?

(Or,as SR always points out----more will be revealed!)

Two times at bat;two strikes.I can attest to any and all who read
these words----extreme kindness works no better than extreme cruelty.
A better lesson would be----nothing we do with respect to anothers
addiction....will make any difference at all.It is their life,and their call.
It removes the burning question----will the next pitch result in a ball,
a hit,a strike,or a foul?

Except it's not a game.It's someones life.Perhaps you do them the greatest
honor by laying the bat down on home plate----walking to the dugout---
and going home.

I wanted another shot at that SOB (addiction).But noone knows better
than I----it was the wrong thing to want.Two lives lost.I do not have the
reserves to suffer a third.

incitingsilence

Vale first, no guilt, it isn’t warranted.
“Heroin takes, it is that simple and it has no need to explain. Why would it, it is so self explanatory, the epitome of heaven and hell…an if by chance, and the risk is acceptable , that heaven and hell collide at the exact moment, then what remains will only be in memories. “
Remember the life, the good, the words, hell we all say things in the moment we wish we could take back, and that never ever will erase any love that was present.


I am really not sure that nothing makes a difference.

Getting help ourselves removes us as part of the problem. The last thing any addict needs is an enabler, fixer, excuse maker, savior to keep them trapped. All that helping gone awry.
Removing the need to react which teaches, removing the need to label, assign, set anything in stone I find good too.

And I don’t look at this as something specific done that will fix, the only fix is from within for all sides. But I have been on the other side and especially with our children the reactions create confusion and are awesome fuel, the saving teaches and not what is expected. Maybe it is the view but one thing I know for sure is when the unhealthy reactions were removed and I was let go of, with love, then I could look at me, and only then did I see my lies for what they were.

Vale

Thank You,inciting silence.that spoke to me in many ways.

"Heroin takes,it is that simple"

I doubt anyone (in the history of SR) ....could find a more noble,
comforting,and true epitaph as that.They are gone now---and
all that remains is our lives....to be well-lived.Thanks again.

Vale