OuttoLunch, et al
Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 924
I really don't think anyone I have ever heard post on here has ever doubted the disease description of addiction. it's an awful disease...it eats away lives
I think focusing on the codependent here is a good idea...because if we are here it is likely that we have suffered along side a patient who has repeatedly dismissed the "doctors orders" In my case, I could see my ex's treatment plan in bright contrast / full relief...and I could see every single freakin place that he failed at maintaining his prescription for recovery.
you can't make a diabetic take their insulin, you can't make the obese stop eating junk, you can't make the chronic cougher quit smoking, you can't you can't you can't...
disease, yes. what our effort does to "support" the addict dealing with their disease?
I swear, my ex started using rehabs as resorts. he was a hero every time he entered some place in the woods with a chef, while I supported the home and worked my arse off...and then I would watch the released "patient" defiantly ignore the prescribed methods for continued recovery.
this kind of behavior, I am sure, has gone on for as long as there have been medical journals...and longer. I know he has a disease. The disease still has him. I don't hate him. I just detached. I walked. there are thousands and thousands of very qualified and compassionate people who can support him and love him into recovery if he chooses. every single person who allows him to manipulate and use them...enables his addiction.
the manipulation, using, abusing, lies and deceit are all part of the disease.
if you're not "qualified" to deal with that then you best get out of the way, or you become part of the disease.
I think focusing on the codependent here is a good idea...because if we are here it is likely that we have suffered along side a patient who has repeatedly dismissed the "doctors orders" In my case, I could see my ex's treatment plan in bright contrast / full relief...and I could see every single freakin place that he failed at maintaining his prescription for recovery.
you can't make a diabetic take their insulin, you can't make the obese stop eating junk, you can't make the chronic cougher quit smoking, you can't you can't you can't...
disease, yes. what our effort does to "support" the addict dealing with their disease?
I swear, my ex started using rehabs as resorts. he was a hero every time he entered some place in the woods with a chef, while I supported the home and worked my arse off...and then I would watch the released "patient" defiantly ignore the prescribed methods for continued recovery.
this kind of behavior, I am sure, has gone on for as long as there have been medical journals...and longer. I know he has a disease. The disease still has him. I don't hate him. I just detached. I walked. there are thousands and thousands of very qualified and compassionate people who can support him and love him into recovery if he chooses. every single person who allows him to manipulate and use them...enables his addiction.
the manipulation, using, abusing, lies and deceit are all part of the disease.
if you're not "qualified" to deal with that then you best get out of the way, or you become part of the disease.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1,698
My two cents.... We are all here because someone WE love is part of the insanity called addiction. We are all anonymous and share what we are comfortable expressing BUT everyone here has one goal or hope.... Can we live and function after addiction has stolen our joy? The answer lies within each of our hearts. I know everyone's journey is different and for ME (addict being my child) I have clung to the learnings, sharing and experience of the members who have trudged the miles before me. I adore the raw truths of those Mamma's and Dad's who are willing enough to relive thier worst days and best days for us "newbies" who need to find strength and hope out of the ashes of our devastation which is to say. "Live for today and love forever".
OTL, I miss you
OTL, I miss you
Getting there!!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,750
While I do believe early intervention can make a difference, it is still not a guarantee that an addict will seek and maintain recovery.
To imply that many of us have not been loving, compassionate, understanding, and sought out every means possible to help our addicted loved ones is just an inaccurate assessment. Over time, many of us learn that we can't make them or love them into recovery. They must need it for themselves.
Addiction is a family disease and will ravage even the strongest and most loving of families. It's a very painful, life altering experience to see someone you love so much get lost in their addiction. The helplessness of the situation is indescribable.
Many of us became very "sick"(full blown codependency) trying to help our loved ones. We lost ourselves in our attempts. It is now our right to reclaim ourselves and our rights to live a happy, healthy life. Anything less just allows the disease to destroy and ravage more. I, for one, will not allow addiction to take any more from me, including a sound mind or my health.
To imply that many of us have not been loving, compassionate, understanding, and sought out every means possible to help our addicted loved ones is just an inaccurate assessment. Over time, many of us learn that we can't make them or love them into recovery. They must need it for themselves.
Addiction is a family disease and will ravage even the strongest and most loving of families. It's a very painful, life altering experience to see someone you love so much get lost in their addiction. The helplessness of the situation is indescribable.
Many of us became very "sick"(full blown codependency) trying to help our loved ones. We lost ourselves in our attempts. It is now our right to reclaim ourselves and our rights to live a happy, healthy life. Anything less just allows the disease to destroy and ravage more. I, for one, will not allow addiction to take any more from me, including a sound mind or my health.
The sun still shines
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by Deuce 
The changes happening now are new because they are based on scientific evidence, and statistical evidence regarding what works in terms of treatment. Knowledge that did not exist and was not accepted by the medical field years ago. Changes happening now are based on addiction being viewed as a disease instead of a choice. Blows some old theories away as far as Im concerned. Lots of good things happening, and its never going to go back to the way it was.
Welcome back, Cynical One. As you can see, you are loved
What I have noticed, is that if your addicted loved one found recovery fairly early on in their addiction, it is easy to think that you only need to do a, b or c to support them and recovery will be certain. And you think the rest of us didn't try those things.
If those same loved ones were to relapse again and again and again and the consequences were to get more dire over a long time, I dare say you may change your mind about your current beliefs. And sometimes you come across as a bit smug, although that is probably not intended.
The Unwoven movie explains that during later stages of addiction the brain changes dramatically and behaviour with it. My guess is that your loved ones found recovery before these changes took place and therefore you may feel that with the right support, addiction can be cured.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by Sunshine2
Deuce, sadly addiction is more rife than ever before. It has become this century's epidemic and is still spreading rapidly. If such rapid strides were made, I think it would decrease? I pray you will be right some day.
Welcome back, Cynical One. As you can see, you are loved
What I have noticed, is that if your addicted loved one found recovery fairly early on in their addiction, it is easy to think that you only need to do a, b or c to support them and recovery will be certain. And you think the rest of us didn't try those things.
If those same loved ones were to relapse again and again and again and the consequences were to get more dire over a long time, I dare say you may change your mind about your current beliefs. And sometimes you come across as a bit smug, although that is probably not intended.
The Unwoven movie explains that during later stages of addiction the brain changes dramatically and behaviour with it. My guess is that your loved ones found recovery before these changes took place and therefore you may feel that with the right support, addiction can be cured.
Welcome back, Cynical One. As you can see, you are loved
What I have noticed, is that if your addicted loved one found recovery fairly early on in their addiction, it is easy to think that you only need to do a, b or c to support them and recovery will be certain. And you think the rest of us didn't try those things.
If those same loved ones were to relapse again and again and again and the consequences were to get more dire over a long time, I dare say you may change your mind about your current beliefs. And sometimes you come across as a bit smug, although that is probably not intended.
The Unwoven movie explains that during later stages of addiction the brain changes dramatically and behaviour with it. My guess is that your loved ones found recovery before these changes took place and therefore you may feel that with the right support, addiction can be cured.
I did not mean to start an attack, and never was saying the idea of addiction being a disease is new. All that follow up was a waste of peoples time. I am glad things are being looked at in a new way, if others are not then whats it to me. The new book by David Scheff I have started reading, and gave a copy to "the kids" mom. It is about the these same things.
Getting there!!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,750
Originally Posted by Deuce
No it is not intended. Yes "the kid" was fortunate to get help early. And I agree that does alter my thinking. His mother intervened, we intervened. Mostly to enable his recovery, but ah yes to prevent some negative consequences also like his being homeless when she kicked him out and asked us to take him in. It worked out for us. we did not view his drug use as so much of a choice, but an illness. He was grieving the death of his father, and was on substances. He had insurance and was able to get help for all his problems. But if he had no insurance, and addiction was a choice, this leaves less help available. In time. I hope the new laws will allow others to get better medical care. Also my personal opinion also does not equate with someone needing to hit bottom. I think when possible family should raise the bottom by intervening. But for some, not all, if it is only a matter of choice, then they will not intervene. Im not saying this applies to everyone here. No doubt most parents try things to exhaustion. "The kids" mother did this, and then passed him to us. We were not so emotional about him though, maybe that helped.
I did not mean to start an attack, and never was saying the idea of addiction being a disease is new. All that follow up was a waste of peoples time. I am glad things are being looked at in a new way, if others are not then whats it to me. The new book by David Scheff I have started reading, and gave a copy to "the kids" mom. It is about the these same things.
I did not mean to start an attack, and never was saying the idea of addiction being a disease is new. All that follow up was a waste of peoples time. I am glad things are being looked at in a new way, if others are not then whats it to me. The new book by David Scheff I have started reading, and gave a copy to "the kids" mom. It is about the these same things.
The sun still shines
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by Deuce
No it is not intended. Yes "the kid" was fortunate to get help early. And I agree that does alter my thinking. His mother intervened, we intervened. Mostly to enable his recovery, but ah yes to prevent some negative consequences also like his being homeless when she kicked him out and asked us to take him in. It worked out for us. we did not view his drug use as so much of a choice, but an illness. He was grieving the death of his father, and was on substances. He had insurance and was able to get help for all his problems. But if he had no insurance, and addiction was a choice, this leaves less help available. In time. I hope the new laws will allow others to get better medical care. Also my personal opinion also does not equate with someone needing to hit bottom. I think when possible family should raise the bottom by intervening. But for some, not all, if it is only a matter of choice, then they will not intervene. Im not saying this applies to everyone here. No doubt most parents try things to exhaustion. "The kids" mother did this, and then passed him to us. We were not so emotional about him though, maybe that helped.
I did not mean to start an attack, and never was saying the idea of addiction being a disease is new. All that follow up was a waste of peoples time. I am glad things are being looked at in a new way, if others are not then whats it to me. The new book by David Scheff I have started reading, and gave a copy to "the kids" mom. It is about the these same things.
I did not mean to start an attack, and never was saying the idea of addiction being a disease is new. All that follow up was a waste of peoples time. I am glad things are being looked at in a new way, if others are not then whats it to me. The new book by David Scheff I have started reading, and gave a copy to "the kids" mom. It is about the these same things.
It seems as if you think we found out our children were addicted the one day and immediately said they have to be left alone to hit rock bottom. What you do not understand is that allowing them to hit rock bottom only came many years later when we have exhausted every avenue we had.
You are not the only one with this attitude. It does come across as saying: "See, WE didn't abandon OUR addicts and they recovered". What you do not understand is that you were lucky and blessed.
I understand how easy it would be to take their recovery personal and congratulate yourself. I probably would have done the same if my son found recovery that easily.
If you turn it around and imagine what it would have been like if the kid didn't find recovery in spite of your efforts and he kept on getting worse and worse, stealing from you, putting your lives in danger, making your life a living hell. Only when you go down that path can you start imagining what it is like when your child does not find recovery.
This type of attitude is all around us in the real world. We must be bad parents, how could we abandon our children etc. etc. Only other parents who walked all the way understand how unfair that is.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: The Jungle
Posts: 5,435
never was saying the idea of addiction being a disease is new
The changes happening now are new because they are based on scientific evidence, and statistical evidence regarding what works in terms of treatment. Knowledge that did not exist and was not accepted by the medical field years ago. Changes happening now are based on addiction being viewed as a disease instead of a choice.
The disease model also describes addiction as a progressive disease that can be arrested (but not cured). As many members have found, their loved ones may have arrested the disease at an early stage, only to have it crop back up ten years later after a surgery where powerful narcotics are prescribed and wham......it progresses rapidly and it is terrifying.
But quite honestly.....that's not what I'm here for......I already knew most of that before I ever logged in to SR several years ago. I came here because my life had become unmanageable trying everything in my power (including the raising of that "bottom" through intervention) to help and support my son's recovery. I came here for me.....because I need help and guidance from others who had experienced this before me.
And that is my segue back to the original topic of this thread.........I sure appreciate the experience and wisdom of the individuals named in the OP's post. I'm glad to see some of them back and I hope that we can all benefit from their experience, strength, and hope.
gentle hugs
ke
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
I remember my first time coming to SR....DEC/11 was it.I remember about
3 (or was it 4?) cats coming out of the woodwork.......(and I'm pretty sure
Anvil & Cynical were two of 'em).
Just minding my codie business---trolling random websites----looking for
validation,some sort af acknowlegement of all my martyrdom/sacrifice....
They came out of nowhere.Next thing you know there's a bag over my
head,my wrists are tied to my ankles with duct tape---and after giving me
a PROPER beating (never so hard as to disallow the subject from being able
to feel more pain!)
......then they rolled me into a bunch of trash cans at the end
of a dark alley,like I was a bowling ball
As I sat there (as Johnny Cash would say----"in the mud and the blood
and the beer")......a miraculous change occured.
I no longer felt the need to go to the crap side of town for fill an addicts
pockets with money---on the basis of impossibly improbable BS addict stories.
Not only THAT....but I found the strength to go NC...(forever).
I do not think I ever properly thanked them for that life changing, eye
opening beating.
(But BOY was I pissed at them that day!)
3 (or was it 4?) cats coming out of the woodwork.......(and I'm pretty sure
Anvil & Cynical were two of 'em).
Just minding my codie business---trolling random websites----looking for
validation,some sort af acknowlegement of all my martyrdom/sacrifice....
They came out of nowhere.Next thing you know there's a bag over my
head,my wrists are tied to my ankles with duct tape---and after giving me
a PROPER beating (never so hard as to disallow the subject from being able
to feel more pain!)
......then they rolled me into a bunch of trash cans at the end
of a dark alley,like I was a bowling ball
As I sat there (as Johnny Cash would say----"in the mud and the blood
and the beer")......a miraculous change occured.
I no longer felt the need to go to the crap side of town for fill an addicts
pockets with money---on the basis of impossibly improbable BS addict stories.
Not only THAT....but I found the strength to go NC...(forever).
I do not think I ever properly thanked them for that life changing, eye
opening beating.
(But BOY was I pissed at them that day!)
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Hey! Dang, I keep missing the memo's. Was this not a thread about all the great people who used to be here and aren't anymore except for the ones who are and the ones who are but aren't posting right now...and then a homecoming of sorts...this old gal could follow all that, yup, "miss them all...oh look here comes one now...love you all...cheesecake and smoothies".
Then bam, out of the blue comes a debate about the root cause and effect of addiction. Well it's making my roots show and the effect is dreadful so let's get back to the parade...and stop making me walk behind the elephant!! We CAN have a happy thread...yes we can dang it! And if it takes 15 cheesecakes we WILL.
Now, if you can't talk nice (and I do get the ribbing in fun part in case you think I have no sense of humour, lol) then have another slice of cheesecake and keep those jaws busy.
Then bam, out of the blue comes a debate about the root cause and effect of addiction. Well it's making my roots show and the effect is dreadful so let's get back to the parade...and stop making me walk behind the elephant!! We CAN have a happy thread...yes we can dang it! And if it takes 15 cheesecakes we WILL.
Now, if you can't talk nice (and I do get the ribbing in fun part in case you think I have no sense of humour, lol) then have another slice of cheesecake and keep those jaws busy.
Getting there!!
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5,750
The raspberry marble piece looks delicious. Yep, a good sugar rush is exactly what I need right about now. I am looking forward to a long nap later. 
Thank you Ann as always for preparing such a wonderful treat. I hope you didn't stay up all night again baking as our beauty sleep is still very important to our self care.
Thank you Ann as always for preparing such a wonderful treat. I hope you didn't stay up all night again baking as our beauty sleep is still very important to our self care.
Nature Girl
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: By The Lake
Posts: 60,328
Yes, we have real whipped cream, chocolate sprinkles too, properly brewed coffee (brown with caffeine and none of those pansy flavours) and a rose for each of you...that squirts water when you bend to sniff it (MY contibution to a fun time *snork*) 
And just so you know LMN, I don't bake...ever...but I know where the fine bakeries are.
And just so you know LMN, I don't bake...ever...but I know where the fine bakeries are.
Member
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 2,282
yeah,yeah.
As usual.When I get here,the Cheesecake is gone!
(Kinda like Milton in "Office Space")
Birthday Cake (Office Space) - YouTube
I'm cool,it's cool.....we're all cool...(I can take a hint!)
..I'm a dot........
As usual.When I get here,the Cheesecake is gone!
(Kinda like Milton in "Office Space")
Birthday Cake (Office Space) - YouTube
I'm cool,it's cool.....we're all cool...(I can take a hint!)
..I'm a dot........
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