Lara

Is it normal even once addict in recovery - that goal setting and planning long term (just talking 3-5 months) is almost impossible??? Long after the physical addiction is over, it seems that the mental recovery is really where the work begins?? Is this normal? What is a reasonable length of time before one is 'allowed' to put pressure on the recovering addict?? Or are we never allowed to??

suki44883

The brain is affected. It takes time, sometimes a year or more for the brain to sufficiently recover. So far as pressure, I don't think it's right to put pressure on other people under most circumstances, and certainly not where recovery is concerned. It is his recovery, or lack thereof, not yours.

SadHeart

Make your plans without him or his input and he can choose to go along with it or keep up as he can.

SeekingGrowth

Hi, Lara. Tough question to answer in the abstract. What goals or plans do you think need to be set? Are they things that you need settled in order to figure out the next move in your life? Can you move forward without these things being settled?

I guess my view is that addicts don't come "one size fits all," recovery proceeds at different paces for different people, and recovery has to be the number one priority for the addict. If he needs to "one day at a time" it, then that's what he needs to do. If he feels that he can't make solid future plans yet because his recovery doesn't feel stable enough, then that's where he needs to be. And you need to make your plans for your own life and future with sensitivity to these issues.

Again, I feel like it's hard to answer the question without more information as to what goals or plans you think need to be set, but I don't know that it is ever appropriate to put pressure on a recovering addict to make certain goals/plans for his own life; rather, if his failure to make decisions about the future is affecting YOUR ability to move forward, it makes sense to me that you might make him aware of that. And if he is still unable to make a definite decision on the issue, then you move forward in your own life with that information.

Lara

Hi SeekingGrowth... they are travel plans...we are in a good space together at the moment...no pressure for relationship (last thing in the world we both need) but both very close - and 'as friends' want to travel together for a 2 week trip to India in Jan / Feb next year. It is a country he knows well... and he feels the break would do him good and looking forward to the experience and getting off the 'small island'. And India is a place I have dreamt of visiting - and perfect to travel with close friend who lived there as a child and speaks the language... He has told me to just go ahead and make all the arrangements - and whatever money I need just to ask him and he will organise - but if I can attend to all the details... I respect this and understand.
But it is like drawing 'hens teeth' - as some decisions I would really appreciate his input... so a little unnerving.. but looking back on our history - I think he has always been like this (a little lazy, spoilt - he's prepared to happily throw whatever money is needed at the problem - as long as he doesn't have to get his hands dirty)... but since his recovery he has become much worse.. and I do understand I can't put ANY pressure on him - and really I don't!!! But some things do require a vague commitment / decision... like travelling overseas...
I suppose good time would be to set boundaries.... would the below statement be unreasonable??
"I respect you can't be put under pressure to commit to any long term decision be it travel or anything. However, you have expressed your wish to travel with me to India in January next year. We have discussed this ad naseum. I need some input from you as to these plans. If you feel you are not able to manage at this stage - rather tell me now - and let's postpone all travel plans until you are in a more comfortable space. If you truly are comfortable committing to travel in January - and are happy for me to make all plans without any involvement from you - then I will go ahead and make the necessary bookings and simply send you the invoice details".

Lara

SadHeart I think you are so right. They are travel plans to India. But he cannot plan past 24 hours at this stage and I have no intention of pressurising him. The thing is, he is in the financial position to just go when he feels like it - to literally arrive in India and book into whatever hotel he wishes with no thought.. I on the other hand have business commitments and need to plan my fincances - so need a few months... He is desperate to travel together - so it is a matter of finding the 'fine line' between just 'upping and going' and 'some planning.....

I know I am sounding so spoilt talking about travel - hardly a crisis situation regarding SR and dealing with addiction - but still part of the process....

Lara

I absolutely agree with you. I am not referring to his personal recovery - but referring to making decisions together on plans which involve both of us... plans he talks about and wants to be a part of.... but always tricky as some things require a little planning and can't be done at the last minute...
I suppose the best thing would be to cancel all plans at this stage until he's in a better place - the mere fact that he expresses his wish to travel with me, and discusses it with me, but can't commit to a single aspect of the trip except for his words of 'just go ahead and plan it and just give me the amount you need to pay and the date, and I will be there".....
A little scary for me!!!!
Maybe the fact that I am even feeling slightly unnerved - is sign enough to call a halt to all plans???
I am so in that space where I so want to believe his words, his wishes, his expressed desires, but still so not sure of where he is truly at.... I think I still need to accept that the safest place right now, the ONLY place where there can be no 'disappointment' is taking everything one day at a time....
And if I really want to go to India (and if this is really not about him) then to find another travel partner....

Faithlove

I'll go with you! I'd happily commit to a trip in Jan/Feb!
......He's still paying though, right?

Lara

That would be briliant!! At least I know we will commit to the trip!!!!!!! Lets take the money and run!! ha ha ha

SeekingGrowth

Hi, Lara. Your proposed approach to him sounds good to me. His behavior might be because (1) he really wants to go on this trip with you, (2) he's just not sure he's ready for it, and (3) he doesn't want to disappoint you AGAIN! Maybe this is why he's dragging his feet. I wonder how he would react if you suggested a postponement.

suki44883

Perhaps put the trip off until he has been in continuous recovery, working a strong program for a year?

It would be a nice way to celebrate.

Lara

As always Cynical One - you are absolutely right. I accept that! I understand that I am not able to 'control' any of this process. I accept all of the above. I accept that if I trust him with 'please go ahead and make all the plans, just tell me what the costs are, and I am there' - that I am taking a chance, a leap of faith - and that I cannot expect ANYTHING! And if it all goes belly up - I have no right to perform, shout, scream or feel sorry for myself. I am going in eyes wide open. A question for myself - why am I so desperate to share this experience with him?? There are so many people dear to me who would love to go... I suppose because we have such a history; I know we will be in each others lives for the rest of our lives (so a shared experience); he knows India so well; and now here is the selfish part (I would love to see him in a different environment - to see him in another world - without the trials and tribulations of 'home').....

LoveMeNow

Me too, I am coming too!

EnglishGarden

This is a quote from the Harvard Medical School, Mental Health Letter July 1987:

"Studies suggest that serious tension, depression, feelings of inadequacy and personality disorders often persist [after sobriety is initiated, but] . . . that abstinence does make a big difference, but only after a long time, as much as two or three years. [Stopping drinkings or drugs] for many months is no guarantee of recovery. One long term study found that alcoholics who had not had a drink in ten years were hardly distinguishable from people who had never been alcoholic at all; those who had been abstinent for less than three years had most of the same psychological and social problems as active alcoholics . . ."

Lara, do not travel to a place so isolated that at any moment in time you would not be able to get away from him. That you would not be able, at three in the morning when your world is collapsing, not be able to get a cab, get a plane, and get away, back to your child. Wherever you choose to travel with this man who is still quite unstable, do not travel to an isolated community.

(I am assuming the "recovering addict" to whom you are referring is H?)

Jody675

im just curious...at what point did you go from no contact to close friends travelling abroad again? didnt you write him a goodbye letter a few days ago?

Lara i know how hard it is to walk away from someone you felt so much for and that the connection was so intense, but you are not helping him or yourself by torturing yourself with plans like this. its like you are wanting to set yourself up for disappointment and rejection. holidays are great, but not when you are going to be worrying all the time as to whether you are going to go or not. plan a holiday with your gfs or your child. something fun and one that you KNOW will happen. sounds like Faith and LMN are in....lol i wouldnt be relying on, or going anywhere with this guy for a VERY long time. just live your life and let him live his. if your paths cross then see what happens.

MrsDragon

My son (cocaine, alcohol user) just came back from a two week trip to Mustique with his new girlfriend. They both seemed to have a really good time by the discussion and all the pictures they shared. Our son looks more relaxed than I have seen him in a long time; and the girlfriend seems not to have lost any interest in him. Not that I'm implying he has seen the light, or even that this girl will make it to next weekend, but the vacation was good I think.

I think that your trip to India with H is fine as long as you go into it with the proper attitude and expectations. I would search my heart however for hidden hopes and try to get hold of those emotions just in case there is some form of disappointment associated with this time together. Define honestly to yourself what you want from H; what you want to give him. There is no right or wrong. You sound like you are willing to take on the risk and responsibility. The choice is yours.

From my experience with men, most don't like to plan trips. My husband (not an addict) will either let me make all the arrangements, providing feedback if I ask him for opinions, or he will just tell a travel agent what he wants, or his secretary and expect it to be right. (Husband is actually away today/tonight for business). So maybe your H is like this, and his attitude has nothing to do with substances?

I would have just a couple suggestions; share your feelings with H and see if he steps up to ease your concerns. If you are not able to get refundable tickets and reservations (and the loss would burden you) then tell this to H; and ask that he provide any monies due up front, and you will reimburse him at the time of the trip.

I would suggest you read up on travel in India, make sure you know how to maneuver about alone if necessary, have finances available to incur whatever might come along, and think ahead of time regarding what behaviors would be unacceptable by H while on this trip, and let it be known; so there are no misunderstandings.

If you are not at a place of wanting detachment with your H; then I think your willingness to go on a trip like this could be a positive experience for him. The expectation, and goal of working towards participation in a "clean and healthy" vacation might be beneficial; and experiencing the emotion and beauty of India and it's culture while free from substances could be an amazing experience for both of you. As I say this, some people will no doubt assume Im suggesting you take the trip for his benefit; and that is not what Im suggesting. I always think we have to look at intent. In my opinion, if you are taking this trip for your own genuine enjoyment, then these things could be viewed as possible positive by-products for H, but also things that are out of your control.

OT - what are you most interested in seeing/doing while in India?

Lara

ouch!

Lara

I appreciate all your comments. Hope you don’t mind long winded reply but feel that I need to fill you in briefly on the past few months as there is a little confusion – to explain my seemingly sudden trip to India with H! And I am sure you are all wondering why the ‘hell’ I am not listening to all your advice??
We have been close friends for the past 15 years. He lives on an island off Africa. We met as my sister and I have a business there and a second home. But we are based in South Africa. Over the past 15 years I travel frequently to the ‘island’ and spend 2 weeks at a time. Before my son was born I spent months at a time. My background in brief: Close family; Dad an alcoholic. Dad and I started our business together – he died about 10 years ago, aged 51, in my arms as a result of malaria – but due to the excessive alcohol abuse over the years his body too weak to fight the disease. Two years later we lost my gorgeous brother and his girlfriend, aged 23, in a horrific car crash. H was there for me during all of this. Not just for me, but for my sister too. Over the past 7 years our relationship became intimate.
Then in 2007 H became addicted to cocaine. Everything deteriorated rapidly, I became seriously caught up in the vicious cycle of addiction and co-dependency. H finally went into rehab early in 2011 – he was there for 4 months. Seemed to be doing well in his recovery. He always told me that he wanted to marry me. That he loved me deeply etc etc. But that he needed time. I felt the same. He ‘shared’ his recovery with me – as in I attended meetings with him – he told me how he was feeling – his ups and downs. I never pushed. Just listened. The suddenly in June this year he screamed at me to ‘get the hell out of his life’. I had noticed his behaviour becoming a little odd in the weeks prior. But had no idea what was going on. I was shattered. But thank God as it forced me to seek professional help and I found SR. I was advised to go no contact. This I did. ( That letter I posted on SR – was a letter I sent to H in July this year – not recently). H began contacting me a few weeks after that dreadful night. But I never responded. I was doing it for me – not him. It gave back my sanity. I had no idea how co-dependent I was. I feel I have grown so so much. I purposely avoided all travel to ‘the island’ until two weeks ago. I met with H. I planned on not – but I was so relieved to see him. We spoke about everything. For the past few months he has been sending me the usual messages ‘I love you’; I am sorry I hurt you’ blah blah. He told me that he had relapsed in June this year but he has got a grip on himself – he did not want me to know – he felt overwhelmed with how he felt about me. He felt he had let me down. He felt ashamed. I listened. But for the first time what H does, or what he doesn’t – if he is in recovery – or not – active addcition or not – I have my boundaries. I know longer will entertain the idea of marriage with an addict or a recovering addict. I will no longer ever be in an intimate relationship with an addict or a recovering addict (with less than 2 years recovery). I no longer expect anything from him. He no longer defines me. I have made new friends on the ‘island’ and once again do the things I use to do. I don’t wait for him anymore. I have come such a long way. I have forgiven him. But in fact there was nothing to forgive. He is an addict. His behaviour is not unusual. But I have a choice. I will not accept bad behaviour. But I would like to believe H. I want to give him a chance. Not in an intimate way – but as old friends. We have always talked about India. I would love to go. But go with no expectations. I could still go no contact. But why? I truly believe I can navigate this path. My soul tells me it would be a wonderful time. He is my friend. Yes, I know he has behaved appallingly in the past. And still can. But I am prepared to take the chance. I don’t have my emotions invested in him in the same way. I feel it will be an experience of a life time – food for the soul.
Am I stark raving mad?

Sunshine2

Lara, I can't help but to sense that you believe all is not lost and that there is hope for your relationship still. I know your words says differently. This is ok, because until you are ready and fed-up enough to really let go, you will continue with this.

One thing that I do know for myself, is that one gets addicted to the drama in this type of relationship and life feels boring and flat without it. One moment one is discarded and the next moment undying love and devotion is professed. The high of the latter often makes the nastiness worthwhile. Unfortunately it is just an endlessly repeated cycle.

BUT, one is only ready when one is ready.

Lara

Hi Sunshine I don't believe all is lost. I never did. But I have not forgotten how I felt that night he screamed at me. I have also not forgotten his behaviour when he was in active addiction. I have not forgotten the shocking car crash only about 2 months ago. And I have not forgotten the promise to myself - that I will not be involved with an addict. And I will not expose my son to anyone in addiction or early recovery where the behaviour is unpredictable. There are so many other people he could travel with.... and the same goes for me.... I do need to have clear boundaries. And so many people might comment that clearly we have not set boundaries if we planning such a trip. How could do people who were so entwined in each other's lives - now travel as 'friends'. I don't really have the answers....
You quite rightly so "that I am not fed up enough to really let go".... but as friends - I don't want to let him go. I believe in him. I believe in life. But I am also aware of the brutal, devastating nature of addiction...