A question for RA's here: does it hurt you?
A question for RA's here: does it hurt you?
Hello RA's,
When members write about addicts being unacceptable relationship partners whether the addict is in recovery or not--even long-time recovery-- how do you process this?
Does it hurt? Do any of you believe it is true?
I ask because I still deal with confused emotions about my exrabf. If he ever comes back and says that he was in his disease when we separated--(he had 15 years' clean in the program but he'd been given morphine after an accident)--and that he has gotten himself back on track and asks for another chance, I am torn between forgiving and making a new start--forgiving would mean I accept addiction as a brain disease and that I also believe in rehabilitation from that disease--or regarding him as someone who is an addict and therefore is a poor choice for a partner whether he is clean or not.
To be honest, I have also been a poor choice for a relationship partner. I am better today, I work a program of recovery from codependency today like I never worked it before. But I have been also a poor choice for a partner, in my worst codependent times.
Does it hurt you, the remarks made about those with addictive disease, recovering or not?
Thanks for any help as I try to sort out my mind's confusions.
EG
When members write about addicts being unacceptable relationship partners whether the addict is in recovery or not--even long-time recovery-- how do you process this?
Does it hurt? Do any of you believe it is true?
I ask because I still deal with confused emotions about my exrabf. If he ever comes back and says that he was in his disease when we separated--(he had 15 years' clean in the program but he'd been given morphine after an accident)--and that he has gotten himself back on track and asks for another chance, I am torn between forgiving and making a new start--forgiving would mean I accept addiction as a brain disease and that I also believe in rehabilitation from that disease--or regarding him as someone who is an addict and therefore is a poor choice for a partner whether he is clean or not.
To be honest, I have also been a poor choice for a relationship partner. I am better today, I work a program of recovery from codependency today like I never worked it before. But I have been also a poor choice for a partner, in my worst codependent times.
Does it hurt you, the remarks made about those with addictive disease, recovering or not?
Thanks for any help as I try to sort out my mind's confusions.
EG
((EG)) - Yes, it does sting at times, but I understand it. After my three XABFs, I'm not sure *I* would want to be in a relationship with an RA and I AM one. Does it make sense? Not really, but it's the way I feel.
I'm not the person I was, I choose each day to work recovery. People who know me, know this. Do I hope someone will give me a chance? Yes, but I'm more focused on being happy with me and my life right now.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
I'm not the person I was, I choose each day to work recovery. People who know me, know this. Do I hope someone will give me a chance? Yes, but I'm more focused on being happy with me and my life right now.
Hugs and prayers,
Amy
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: North West, England
Posts: 500
Do you know, some of the most amazing, kind, genuine people I've met are RAs. I personally wouldn't write every member of the recovery community off in one fell swoop. I'm not saying I'm going to jump into a relationship with a member of NA but if WAY in the future I was to meet a man I wanted to have a relationship with, I would still give it a go if he was in recovery as long as it was 5+ years.
No, it does not sting at all. I agree with Anvil.
The more I have seen working with A's (sponsoring, etc) these many years I personally would have a hard time becoming involved in a relationship with a recovering/recovered A. I just recently (9 months in 2010, February to October when I ended it) got involved with an old friend (43 years since we had dated) that was able to 'hide' his active alcoholism for a bit, and I was VERY SLOW on seeing the red flags.
So, again no, I have seen too many that have gone back out after years of recovery. Why I have managed to maintain my sobriety I have no clue except for my trust in a Higher Power and keeping my Sobriety at the top of my list DAILY.
I have told posters on here and face to face to RUN, leave now, etc I am going to pizz some RA's off by saying this, but, I M H O recovering A's are a 'bit risky' to become involved with and practicing A's??? Well that is a 'no brainer' in my book.
If, and that is a BIG IF, that were to happen, since you already know him, stand back to a degree, go VERY SLOW and WATCH his ACTIONS for a year, then decide.
Forgiving and forgetting are two different things. You forgive someone for YOU. You accept that the person did those actions. But you do not forget. Forgiving is letting go of the resentment and anger.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
The more I have seen working with A's (sponsoring, etc) these many years I personally would have a hard time becoming involved in a relationship with a recovering/recovered A. I just recently (9 months in 2010, February to October when I ended it) got involved with an old friend (43 years since we had dated) that was able to 'hide' his active alcoholism for a bit, and I was VERY SLOW on seeing the red flags.
So, again no, I have seen too many that have gone back out after years of recovery. Why I have managed to maintain my sobriety I have no clue except for my trust in a Higher Power and keeping my Sobriety at the top of my list DAILY.
I have told posters on here and face to face to RUN, leave now, etc I am going to pizz some RA's off by saying this, but, I M H O recovering A's are a 'bit risky' to become involved with and practicing A's??? Well that is a 'no brainer' in my book.
I am torn between forgiving and making a new start--forgiving would mean I accept addiction as a brain disease and that I also believe in rehabilitation from that disease
Forgiving and forgetting are two different things. You forgive someone for YOU. You accept that the person did those actions. But you do not forget. Forgiving is letting go of the resentment and anger.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
Thank you for your responses. I don't know any longtime recovering addicts personally--he is/was the only one--and have no one to talk with about the disease, about the recovery journey of someone with addiction.
I have only the AA Big Book, and the stories in it, and the Big Book is so affirming of the potential for a full recovery of body, mind and spirit and of the possibility for broken relationships to be fully repaired. I have for a long time been trying to make peace between what the Big Book says about recovery and what I have actually experienced and have read about on SR.
Thank you again for your honest feedback! I really appreciate it. It helps as I sort out the muddle in my head.
I have only the AA Big Book, and the stories in it, and the Big Book is so affirming of the potential for a full recovery of body, mind and spirit and of the possibility for broken relationships to be fully repaired. I have for a long time been trying to make peace between what the Big Book says about recovery and what I have actually experienced and have read about on SR.
Thank you again for your honest feedback! I really appreciate it. It helps as I sort out the muddle in my head.
(((((EG)))))
When the BB was written, there were just a few more than 100 men and women, mostly men who were sober. And the longest was Bill W and Dr Bob with 3 1/2 years or so each.
Also before any of those stories are published in the back of the book, the folks were and are pretty well checked out and vetted before the story is published. AA does NOT oublish stories of those who do not make it. Since AA started on June of 1935 Millions, millions, millions, and many more millions have walked through the doors if AA worldwide, however, today AA World Services says and has said for quite a few years now that they estimate Worldwide membership at between 3.5 to 4.5 millon.
Of course the AA BB is positve and encouraging, but simetumes nit really in tune with reality then or now. It was written by a bunch of drunks who had lived in denial and false realutues for years. It was written by alcoholics, for alcoholic and is and can be a big cheering section for the alcoholic.
Here is where the real reality is, as ugly as it can be and sometimes is.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
When the BB was written, there were just a few more than 100 men and women, mostly men who were sober. And the longest was Bill W and Dr Bob with 3 1/2 years or so each.
Also before any of those stories are published in the back of the book, the folks were and are pretty well checked out and vetted before the story is published. AA does NOT oublish stories of those who do not make it. Since AA started on June of 1935 Millions, millions, millions, and many more millions have walked through the doors if AA worldwide, however, today AA World Services says and has said for quite a few years now that they estimate Worldwide membership at between 3.5 to 4.5 millon.
Of course the AA BB is positve and encouraging, but simetumes nit really in tune with reality then or now. It was written by a bunch of drunks who had lived in denial and false realutues for years. It was written by alcoholics, for alcoholic and is and can be a big cheering section for the alcoholic.
Here is where the real reality is, as ugly as it can be and sometimes is.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
I am curious to know if you think there is a difference between alcoholism and drug addiction...and I know this is a can of worms in a way. I ask this for two reasons. One is that my ex was really kind of weird around recovery circles, he always would self identify as an alcoholic rather than an addict, and he always attended AA instead of NA.
But then there was also the side of him that had almost a superiority edge about being addicted to something as hard core as crack instead of being like me "the garden variety alcoholic". I have heard other addicts talk of their somewhat sneering attitude in early recovery toward the "softies" (the alcoholics). He even would go so far as suggest that crack does less damage to the brain than alcohol...implying his DOC was a more "intelligent" choice.
All the research I did over the 2.5 years I struggled to "keep him" seemed to point to way more extreme brain changes, chemical hijacking and such. It just kind of turned my world upside down because in the beginning I had an attitude of addiction is addiction, and I had so much faith in recovery... but now I believe differently, it seems like drugs like crack and meth are a whole other animal, and that the recovery rate differs.
am I completely out of the park on this one?
But then there was also the side of him that had almost a superiority edge about being addicted to something as hard core as crack instead of being like me "the garden variety alcoholic". I have heard other addicts talk of their somewhat sneering attitude in early recovery toward the "softies" (the alcoholics). He even would go so far as suggest that crack does less damage to the brain than alcohol...implying his DOC was a more "intelligent" choice.
All the research I did over the 2.5 years I struggled to "keep him" seemed to point to way more extreme brain changes, chemical hijacking and such. It just kind of turned my world upside down because in the beginning I had an attitude of addiction is addiction, and I had so much faith in recovery... but now I believe differently, it seems like drugs like crack and meth are a whole other animal, and that the recovery rate differs.
am I completely out of the park on this one?
Yes it hurts, a lot of what I read on the family and friends sections can be hurtful. I have been clean for about 8 years and I realise that I hurt a lot of people when I was using. I have made amends and have tried very hard to clear the wreckage of my past.
When I first started going to meetings I was told that "We are not bad people, just sick people trying to get better". That made such a difference to me because until then I really did consider myself to be a very, very bad person.
There were so many reasons that I used drugs, mostly to numb all the pain I was in. I found during my addiction that the people that got romantically involved with me were just as sick as me, they just didn't take drugs.
Some of the best people I have met are recovering addicts and alcholics, we are not mosters whose main purpose in life is to destroy other people.
When I first started going to meetings I was told that "We are not bad people, just sick people trying to get better". That made such a difference to me because until then I really did consider myself to be a very, very bad person.
There were so many reasons that I used drugs, mostly to numb all the pain I was in. I found during my addiction that the people that got romantically involved with me were just as sick as me, they just didn't take drugs.
Some of the best people I have met are recovering addicts and alcholics, we are not mosters whose main purpose in life is to destroy other people.
Dr. Drew on television has had an impact on how I view addicts in their disease, how I view addiction as a disease, and his deep belief that addiction is often the result of early trauma which needs--and deserves--to be treated has affected also how I view addicts.
Here on the F&F forum we have to advocate for those in the destructive path of active addiction and warn them to take cover. Because the reality, of course, is that when addiction is in full control of a person, that person is dangerous and will certainly harm all people in his environment.
But I find that if I do not believe that real recovery of the spiritual self of the addict is possible, real recovery of his moral values and behaviors, and that he is as worthy to be loved and have loving relationship as anyone, then I feel the foundation of the 12 Steps under my feet dissolving. I need to believe that those Steps can restore a person's lost self--anyone, addict or codependent, anyone affected by the disease. I need to believe the miracle of restoration of the person after the ravages of addiction is possible through those Steps.
I don't want to believe that everyone with addictive disease is essentially exiled from what is so much a part of being human: the intimate bonding with another human being and the unique personal and spiritual growth that comes from that. If I believe that, then the 12 Steps would no longer have meaning for me.
Melody Beattie is a recovering addict, she did all the hard drugs and for a long time. Yet, here, we follow her words as a pathway to spiritual restoration of our lost selves.
Is she one in a million among recovering addicts? Do we just assume that her history of drug addiction doesn't count? We trust her, yet she was as hard core as anyone could be.
As you can tell, my mind swirls with these questions I try to sort through. I have to come to some peace about this eventually, because I need to be able to sit in Al-Anon meetings and believe that the miracle of recovery from this disease is possible for anyone whose brain is not so permanently organically damaged that doing the Step work would be impossible.
I don't want to be in the program if I can't believe in its basic tenet: that God can restore a person to sanity, bring about a spiritual awakening, and restore the lost soul.
Does anyone else struggle with this?
Here on the F&F forum we have to advocate for those in the destructive path of active addiction and warn them to take cover. Because the reality, of course, is that when addiction is in full control of a person, that person is dangerous and will certainly harm all people in his environment.
But I find that if I do not believe that real recovery of the spiritual self of the addict is possible, real recovery of his moral values and behaviors, and that he is as worthy to be loved and have loving relationship as anyone, then I feel the foundation of the 12 Steps under my feet dissolving. I need to believe that those Steps can restore a person's lost self--anyone, addict or codependent, anyone affected by the disease. I need to believe the miracle of restoration of the person after the ravages of addiction is possible through those Steps.
I don't want to believe that everyone with addictive disease is essentially exiled from what is so much a part of being human: the intimate bonding with another human being and the unique personal and spiritual growth that comes from that. If I believe that, then the 12 Steps would no longer have meaning for me.
Melody Beattie is a recovering addict, she did all the hard drugs and for a long time. Yet, here, we follow her words as a pathway to spiritual restoration of our lost selves.
Is she one in a million among recovering addicts? Do we just assume that her history of drug addiction doesn't count? We trust her, yet she was as hard core as anyone could be.
As you can tell, my mind swirls with these questions I try to sort through. I have to come to some peace about this eventually, because I need to be able to sit in Al-Anon meetings and believe that the miracle of recovery from this disease is possible for anyone whose brain is not so permanently organically damaged that doing the Step work would be impossible.
I don't want to be in the program if I can't believe in its basic tenet: that God can restore a person to sanity, bring about a spiritual awakening, and restore the lost soul.
Does anyone else struggle with this?
Yes, I have attended Al-Anon for many years and worked the steps and have been in codependency therapy also for many years.
But this isn't only about my specific exrabf. It is about whether people really believe those promises of recovery -- that people, relationships, and families can be healed and repaired.
There is something troubling me, but I can't yet put into words.
It has something to do with an inconsistent message that promotes recovery yet discounts recovery.
I'm sorry. I feel I've wasted everyone's time with my confusion!
If I find my way to clarity, I'll post again.
Thank you!
But this isn't only about my specific exrabf. It is about whether people really believe those promises of recovery -- that people, relationships, and families can be healed and repaired.
There is something troubling me, but I can't yet put into words.
It has something to do with an inconsistent message that promotes recovery yet discounts recovery.
I'm sorry. I feel I've wasted everyone's time with my confusion!
If I find my way to clarity, I'll post again.
Thank you!
Member
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,393
I think I understand what you are saying. Can you ultimately trust someone who claims to be recovered? I think so. It is about the individual. I have been sober 2 years but I knew when I quit, that it was over. No more managing my emotions with alcohol. In my early sobriety I thought that I would never choose someone who drank. But I do think people can recover. Best wishes to you. It is good to ask questions.:ghug3
I did some reading and some thinking and I am close to being clearer.
In human nature, says one of my deeper texts, there are fields of probability. And when any human being is faced with the hard road or the easy road, the higher probability is that he will take the easy road. It is just the way humans are made. We do not like pain. So we humans find ways to avoid the pain of growth.
The higher probability is that a person will choose the easy road.
Will an addict who wants to get clean take the hard road or the easy road?
Even if he sobers up, will he just stop there, or will he push through, and do the really hard work, the Step 4 (personal inventory, gut-honest), Step 5 (admitting EVERYTHING to another human being to deal with the shame and the guilt), Step 9 (face to face amends to the people he hurt--nearly destroyed--in his using days, to redeem himself for himself).
Will he commit to living in this new way-- Step 10 of continuing to take personal inventory on a daily basis and immediately correcting his wrongs--for the rest of his life and on a daily basis?
Human nature being what it is, the field of probability says he will not. Most people want the easy way when faced with such a challenge.
So when one of us codependents meets an addict in recovery, and we feel a connection, and we ask ourselves, is this person an appropriate choice for me as a
partner.......there are people who will say "run" because of the field of probability. Recovering addicts might say "run." Plenty of recovering codies will say "run."
It isn't actually about whether the person who says "run" has faith in the 12 Steps. The person who says "run" may, in fact, just as the RA's here, be living a very solid life of recovery.
It is just that they know that most people choose the easy road, or veer back onto it even if they've been traveling the harder road. It is the field of probability.
I think that when a person here says, "never another addict in my life, never again, no matter how long he's been working a program of recovery," what she (or he) is really saying is that she has been so shattered in the past by her relationship with an addict, that she can't risk the field of probability. She can't let another addict into her life because she knows that she still has long cracks of woundedness in her that make her exquisitely vulnerable to being totally broken the next time.
After huge earthquakes in California, some people move, they leave California and vow never to return again. Those people say, "I can't live through another one." This particular experience with the earthquake has left them so wounded, they cannot risk the probability of another experience like that. They think they wouldn't survive it emotionally, even if they survived it it physically.
So each of us has to decide for ourselves not only whether we believe in recovery at all, but our individual capacity for emotional risk should our addict get clean, work a program, make amends, and want, eventually, to rebuild a relationship.
As posted above, at such a time-- should it come for any of us--if we are one of those who is willing to at least test the waters of forgivenness and rebuilding, it will be vital to maintain some emotional distance--and certainly avoid physical intimacy for awhile--as we slowly work, with the recovering addict, to build a new relationship, one small brick at a time.
I think I finally have worked through my confusion about what I thought was an inconsistent message of both promoting recovery and discounting it.
Thank you for all the feedback....it helped me very much.
In human nature, says one of my deeper texts, there are fields of probability. And when any human being is faced with the hard road or the easy road, the higher probability is that he will take the easy road. It is just the way humans are made. We do not like pain. So we humans find ways to avoid the pain of growth.
The higher probability is that a person will choose the easy road.
Will an addict who wants to get clean take the hard road or the easy road?
Even if he sobers up, will he just stop there, or will he push through, and do the really hard work, the Step 4 (personal inventory, gut-honest), Step 5 (admitting EVERYTHING to another human being to deal with the shame and the guilt), Step 9 (face to face amends to the people he hurt--nearly destroyed--in his using days, to redeem himself for himself).
Will he commit to living in this new way-- Step 10 of continuing to take personal inventory on a daily basis and immediately correcting his wrongs--for the rest of his life and on a daily basis?
Human nature being what it is, the field of probability says he will not. Most people want the easy way when faced with such a challenge.
So when one of us codependents meets an addict in recovery, and we feel a connection, and we ask ourselves, is this person an appropriate choice for me as a
partner.......there are people who will say "run" because of the field of probability. Recovering addicts might say "run." Plenty of recovering codies will say "run."
It isn't actually about whether the person who says "run" has faith in the 12 Steps. The person who says "run" may, in fact, just as the RA's here, be living a very solid life of recovery.
It is just that they know that most people choose the easy road, or veer back onto it even if they've been traveling the harder road. It is the field of probability.
I think that when a person here says, "never another addict in my life, never again, no matter how long he's been working a program of recovery," what she (or he) is really saying is that she has been so shattered in the past by her relationship with an addict, that she can't risk the field of probability. She can't let another addict into her life because she knows that she still has long cracks of woundedness in her that make her exquisitely vulnerable to being totally broken the next time.
After huge earthquakes in California, some people move, they leave California and vow never to return again. Those people say, "I can't live through another one." This particular experience with the earthquake has left them so wounded, they cannot risk the probability of another experience like that. They think they wouldn't survive it emotionally, even if they survived it it physically.
So each of us has to decide for ourselves not only whether we believe in recovery at all, but our individual capacity for emotional risk should our addict get clean, work a program, make amends, and want, eventually, to rebuild a relationship.
As posted above, at such a time-- should it come for any of us--if we are one of those who is willing to at least test the waters of forgivenness and rebuilding, it will be vital to maintain some emotional distance--and certainly avoid physical intimacy for awhile--as we slowly work, with the recovering addict, to build a new relationship, one small brick at a time.
I think I finally have worked through my confusion about what I thought was an inconsistent message of both promoting recovery and discounting it.
Thank you for all the feedback....it helped me very much.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
No, it does not hurt me. There is risk involved in any relationship. Period. Sometimes we risk, sometimes we don't. It is exactly what it is.
Thanks, AH.
We were typing synchronistically. I appreciate you taking the time to help me unravel all this!
It sounds as if for you, the risk of being with Hank is okay because you know you will be okay. No matter what.
And some here....I think they are not sure they'd be okay. So they say "No moving back to California."
I am still doing my work around my own capacity, because whether the exrabf ever crosses my path again, I need to know what has happened to me and how deep it goes.
More meetings. More dollars for therapy instead of new dresses.
We were typing synchronistically. I appreciate you taking the time to help me unravel all this!
It sounds as if for you, the risk of being with Hank is okay because you know you will be okay. No matter what.
And some here....I think they are not sure they'd be okay. So they say "No moving back to California."
I am still doing my work around my own capacity, because whether the exrabf ever crosses my path again, I need to know what has happened to me and how deep it goes.
More meetings. More dollars for therapy instead of new dresses.
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