Manipulation
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Manipulation
I desperately need some words of wisdom. The two ladies from my meeting I would usually turn to in a crisis are busy with it being Saturday night here.
I've just come off a phone call from my ABF- I call him that as we're physically separated but I'm still working on the emotional side of things.
It wasn't originally about addiction but the conversation turned to it after he asked about my meeting last night and I told him I'd found it emotionally draining as I'm working through some heavy stuff right now- I'm also using a domestic abuse centre and have an appointment with a rape crisis centre this week, although he doesn't know about me using either of these services.
He started talking about how he KNOWS what 12 step is like and he KNOWS what they're telling me and it's really difficult for him to watch as he 'knows what's coming'. He's convinced it's a brainwashing cult, despite the fact I've repeatedly told him that I'm working on my own issues and trying to get to a better place. He often gets annoyed that I don't talk to him about my problems instead of in his words.. 'going to find strangers who just want the gossip'.
Anyway, we got to talking about triggers and learning how to deal with emotions differently- all in a general sense but we both knew we were discussing his addiction. He started saying how loneliness is a huge trigger and I suggested that is part of the reason people go to meetings and get a sponsor and do things to work on their recovery and make new connections. He sort of brushed that off in a manner that showed me he still thinks he is superior to other addicts and believes he doesn't need support or a program- despite the fact he is a chronic 'relapser' (he never works on his recovery and continues to believe at the age of 42 with a 20 year heroin habit that he can do it alone).
In october I left him and took our toddler away from him at the request of social services. He likes to beat me over the head with this and tonight decided to tell me that deserting someone is the worst thing you can ever possibly do, and it's such a huge trigger, and it's so difficult.. Etc. He also told me that physical abuse is nothing compared to desertion and if someone hits you at least it's attention and shows they care about you. He then went on to blame this belief on his upbringing and said some other things I don't recall. After a while, in his usual friendly manner, he said 'why the f**k am I even telling you any of this' and got off the phone.
This conversation has just left me on the ceiling. I shouldn't be surprised really but this is the first time he's properly pulled this stuff on me. I don't know what I need. Possibly reassurance. Mindf**k.
I've just come off a phone call from my ABF- I call him that as we're physically separated but I'm still working on the emotional side of things.
It wasn't originally about addiction but the conversation turned to it after he asked about my meeting last night and I told him I'd found it emotionally draining as I'm working through some heavy stuff right now- I'm also using a domestic abuse centre and have an appointment with a rape crisis centre this week, although he doesn't know about me using either of these services.
He started talking about how he KNOWS what 12 step is like and he KNOWS what they're telling me and it's really difficult for him to watch as he 'knows what's coming'. He's convinced it's a brainwashing cult, despite the fact I've repeatedly told him that I'm working on my own issues and trying to get to a better place. He often gets annoyed that I don't talk to him about my problems instead of in his words.. 'going to find strangers who just want the gossip'.
Anyway, we got to talking about triggers and learning how to deal with emotions differently- all in a general sense but we both knew we were discussing his addiction. He started saying how loneliness is a huge trigger and I suggested that is part of the reason people go to meetings and get a sponsor and do things to work on their recovery and make new connections. He sort of brushed that off in a manner that showed me he still thinks he is superior to other addicts and believes he doesn't need support or a program- despite the fact he is a chronic 'relapser' (he never works on his recovery and continues to believe at the age of 42 with a 20 year heroin habit that he can do it alone).
In october I left him and took our toddler away from him at the request of social services. He likes to beat me over the head with this and tonight decided to tell me that deserting someone is the worst thing you can ever possibly do, and it's such a huge trigger, and it's so difficult.. Etc. He also told me that physical abuse is nothing compared to desertion and if someone hits you at least it's attention and shows they care about you. He then went on to blame this belief on his upbringing and said some other things I don't recall. After a while, in his usual friendly manner, he said 'why the f**k am I even telling you any of this' and got off the phone.
This conversation has just left me on the ceiling. I shouldn't be surprised really but this is the first time he's properly pulled this stuff on me. I don't know what I need. Possibly reassurance. Mindf**k.
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Ok, first of all he is an addict. He is NOT in recovery. This is what addicts do, it was written by the fellow that started this site years ago:
Also, addict lie a lot. Figure every time he says anything it is a lie. (I am in recovery from alcohol and drugs for almost 31 continuous years now. I am also in Alanon for almost 28 years now.) I know it was true of me and every one I know and have worked with over the years.
You are correct with your 'title', this was pure MANIPULATION!
Your meetings are none of his business. And you can effectively go no contact, by telling him that you will only talk to him if it is about your toddler. As soon as he goes off topic, say 'BYE' and hang up the phone. He will eventually get it, maybe, but when you repeatedly do not talk to him about anything but your child, it will sink in.
There is no reason that you need to stay on the phone with a man child that is still belittling and trying to push your buttons. Remember we are walking with you in spirit.
Love and hugs,
What Addicts Do
My name's Jon. I'm an addict. And this is what addicts do. You cannot nor will not change my behavior. You cannot make me treat you better, let alone with any respect. All I care about, all I think about, is my needs and how to go about fufilling them. You are a tool to me, something to use. When I say I love you I am lying through my teeth, because love is impossible for someone in active addiction. I wouldn't be using if I loved myself, and since I don't, I cannot love you.
My feelings are so pushed down and numbed by my drugs that I could be considered sociopathic. I have no empathy for you or anyone else. It doesn't faze me that I hurt you, leave you hungry, lie to you, cheat on you and steal from you.
My behavior cannot and will not change until i make a decison to stop using/drinking and then follow it up with a plan of action.
And until I make that decsion, I will hurt you again and again and again.
Stop being surprised.
I am an addict. And that's what addicts do.
My name's Jon. I'm an addict. And this is what addicts do. You cannot nor will not change my behavior. You cannot make me treat you better, let alone with any respect. All I care about, all I think about, is my needs and how to go about fufilling them. You are a tool to me, something to use. When I say I love you I am lying through my teeth, because love is impossible for someone in active addiction. I wouldn't be using if I loved myself, and since I don't, I cannot love you.
My feelings are so pushed down and numbed by my drugs that I could be considered sociopathic. I have no empathy for you or anyone else. It doesn't faze me that I hurt you, leave you hungry, lie to you, cheat on you and steal from you.
My behavior cannot and will not change until i make a decison to stop using/drinking and then follow it up with a plan of action.
And until I make that decsion, I will hurt you again and again and again.
Stop being surprised.
I am an addict. And that's what addicts do.
You are correct with your 'title', this was pure MANIPULATION!
Your meetings are none of his business. And you can effectively go no contact, by telling him that you will only talk to him if it is about your toddler. As soon as he goes off topic, say 'BYE' and hang up the phone. He will eventually get it, maybe, but when you repeatedly do not talk to him about anything but your child, it will sink in.
There is no reason that you need to stay on the phone with a man child that is still belittling and trying to push your buttons. Remember we are walking with you in spirit.
Love and hugs,
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Minneapolis
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in almost every story that I have ever heard told by a recovering alcoholic/addict it has been the fact that they LOST people due to their addiction which was part of the bottom from which they started their path of recovery.
almost e v e r y story I have heard... and I believe that in the rest they just didn't talk about that part.
human beings need love.
addiction drives love away, steals it, it takes up more and more spiritual and heartspace of the addict until there just isn't room for human love. addiction isolates, addiction usually causes so much pain in the surrounding people in the "system" that they are often left with no choice but to walk away from "the addiction"; the person with the active addiction
you are not abandoning a human being,
you have been walking away from addiction.
you are not abandoning him
he has made choices to continue using which typically creates the consequence of LOSING people
he is trying to deflect blame on you
there is NO reason to use!!!!!!!!
almost e v e r y story I have heard... and I believe that in the rest they just didn't talk about that part.
human beings need love.
addiction drives love away, steals it, it takes up more and more spiritual and heartspace of the addict until there just isn't room for human love. addiction isolates, addiction usually causes so much pain in the surrounding people in the "system" that they are often left with no choice but to walk away from "the addiction"; the person with the active addiction
you are not abandoning a human being,
you have been walking away from addiction.
you are not abandoning him
he has made choices to continue using which typically creates the consequence of LOSING people
he is trying to deflect blame on you
there is NO reason to use!!!!!!!!
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I feel like I'm at a huge turning point. Its terrifying, like being stood at the edge of a cliff and jumping off into the unknown. My self awareness is going up and I am really trying to put the focus on me.. Hence everything I'm doing to deal with my issues. I'm making progress, lots of people I've connected with at meetings have commented on that.
I feel horribly weak right now. I came off the phone earlier (with a friend from the program, not my ex/bf) and was physically shaking after talking through some stuff. I don't know if it's because I'm trying to deal with all the debris from the relationship it's dragging everything right up to the surface. I assume/I've been told that because I didn't emotionally deal with it at the time and just buried it, it's just as raw as if it just happened. Finding myself in kind of a dark place right now
I feel horribly weak right now. I came off the phone earlier (with a friend from the program, not my ex/bf) and was physically shaking after talking through some stuff. I don't know if it's because I'm trying to deal with all the debris from the relationship it's dragging everything right up to the surface. I assume/I've been told that because I didn't emotionally deal with it at the time and just buried it, it's just as raw as if it just happened. Finding myself in kind of a dark place right now
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Urgh speaking of keeping the focus on me.. It's taking SO much not to question his motives, is he using, is he about to use, is he just messing with my head and enjoying it, ARGH. It doesn't matter. I'm allowing him to make me feel like crap and he's getting something good from it.
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in my present grief (it's been about three weeks since I "walked away") I allow myself space...it's not like the pain and confusion and heartache is just going to disappear.
sometimes I start to cry and it just lasts a couple of minutes.
it's just enough to go on with the next part of the day
coming here has helped me process a lot
even in disagreeing! in sorting through posts and responses I recognize parts of my own voice, my own place on my map...what I agree with, what I refuse.
it's all a process, and you need to give yourself a lot of love and care right now
glad you have such great support
keep getting all the help you need
the heartbreak may just be helping you toward a breakthrough in your psyche...
please make sure you have a lot of qualified help to help you "unpack" your issues!!
if you get the right help it can be amazingly healing
this is one of the reasons why I still love and have compassion for my ex
he triggered my deepest issues and I had to deal with them, and so so so fortunate for me I had awesome people around to help
it doesn't mean that I want to stay with someone in active addiction...
but when there is that much love and history it just maybe means there was a reason you met...maybe it was time for you to deal with your life issues!!
Praying for you! Peace!
Out of the muck comes the lotus flower.
sometimes I start to cry and it just lasts a couple of minutes.
it's just enough to go on with the next part of the day
coming here has helped me process a lot
even in disagreeing! in sorting through posts and responses I recognize parts of my own voice, my own place on my map...what I agree with, what I refuse.
it's all a process, and you need to give yourself a lot of love and care right now
glad you have such great support
keep getting all the help you need
the heartbreak may just be helping you toward a breakthrough in your psyche...
please make sure you have a lot of qualified help to help you "unpack" your issues!!
if you get the right help it can be amazingly healing
this is one of the reasons why I still love and have compassion for my ex
he triggered my deepest issues and I had to deal with them, and so so so fortunate for me I had awesome people around to help
it doesn't mean that I want to stay with someone in active addiction...
but when there is that much love and history it just maybe means there was a reason you met...maybe it was time for you to deal with your life issues!!
Praying for you! Peace!
Out of the muck comes the lotus flower.
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Oh-also. Laurie I do tell him I'd rather not discuss my meetings, but I somehow thought I could explain I was drained without the reasons why and he would lay off me a bit- if I sound down he draws his own nonsensical conclusion so at the time it felt easier to say that. It wasn't. My bad. Lesson learned 
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Leslie I am currently only dealing with the issues from the relationship, I've only really started moving forward with that recently as I met a lady who works in a DV project who also referred me to the rape centre. However.. I am aware that I will sooner or later be dealing with the issues of an abusive and messed up childhood, eating disorder and (past, I stopped 3 years ago) self harm. I appreciate this opportunity to work on myself, learn about me and figure out why I think I deserve this man. He never even really hid it- early in the relationship he was controlling, angry, threatening and stalked me on a couple of occasions. And I still went for it, wtf. So I am glad that I can use all this amazing support and learn to heal. and learn to love myself.
It's painful though.
It's painful though.
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“He also told me that physical abuse is nothing compared to desertion”
Humph… that one really got me….Wasn’t he the one that deserted you? And to justify physical abuse like that; for shame. Sorry, I was reeling reading that.
Defiantly the “mind F***
I know from growing up in an addicted abusive family environment, that I felt deserted/abandoned emotionally and physically, of course I never wanted anyone I loved to feel that way. This made it hard for me to leave abusive situations even though I knew on the surface that the circumstances were very different. I am not saying you are the same as me, but that came to mind.
You and I both have a long journey ahead; it’s going to be painful at times and awesome at times
Also,
I would highly recommend no contact unless it is an absolute necessity to deal with issues concerning your toddler. You probably figured this after that call from hell-- just saying
Hugs
Humph… that one really got me….Wasn’t he the one that deserted you? And to justify physical abuse like that; for shame. Sorry, I was reeling reading that.
Defiantly the “mind F***
I know from growing up in an addicted abusive family environment, that I felt deserted/abandoned emotionally and physically, of course I never wanted anyone I loved to feel that way. This made it hard for me to leave abusive situations even though I knew on the surface that the circumstances were very different. I am not saying you are the same as me, but that came to mind.
You and I both have a long journey ahead; it’s going to be painful at times and awesome at times
Also,
I would highly recommend no contact unless it is an absolute necessity to deal with issues concerning your toddler. You probably figured this after that call from hell-- just saying
Hugs
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An addict will do anything to keep you in a F.O.G.
F = fear
O= obligation
G = guilt
They use our fear, statements that make us feel obligated to stay with them (entitlement), and if all else fails, they'll guilt the living daylights out of us. And it keeps us confused.
If you are ever feeling fear, obligation or guilt when dealing with the addict, it may be a sign that there is manipulation occurring.
When this happens, I find that the best thing I can do for myself is "nothing" until I can get away from the addict and clear my mind of the F.O.G.
Keep working on you. Take care of you. You are worth it.
gentle hugs
ke
F = fear
O= obligation
G = guilt
They use our fear, statements that make us feel obligated to stay with them (entitlement), and if all else fails, they'll guilt the living daylights out of us. And it keeps us confused.
If you are ever feeling fear, obligation or guilt when dealing with the addict, it may be a sign that there is manipulation occurring.
When this happens, I find that the best thing I can do for myself is "nothing" until I can get away from the addict and clear my mind of the F.O.G.
Keep working on you. Take care of you. You are worth it.
gentle hugs
ke
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this thread is a good one!
i said this over and over again in my head..."this is what addictes do" and not only that...they never ever take responsiblity for their own actions and behaviours...pointing the finger is what they do best...
and telling him about those meetings? why? he dont care, he just cuts it up anyhow...besides its anonymity for the group members and for you too...
he is threatened thats all...threatened that you will not enable him anymore and he dont want that....
i said this over and over again in my head..."this is what addictes do" and not only that...they never ever take responsiblity for their own actions and behaviours...pointing the finger is what they do best...
and telling him about those meetings? why? he dont care, he just cuts it up anyhow...besides its anonymity for the group members and for you too...
he is threatened thats all...threatened that you will not enable him anymore and he dont want that....
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Good for you for working with these services. I'm glad you are getting help for you and your toddler. I'm glad you also came here for support.
You got it right in your title. He is trying to manipulate you. He is pulling out all the stops--trying to make you feel sorry for him, trying to make you blame yourself for his usage--he's trying to put all the blame on you. You are getting help, and so he is lashing out at you. When you didn't fall for his manipulation, he became verbally abusive.
It is probably best to stay away from his manipulative words as much as possible. If you can, block his number or let his phone calls go to voice mail. I've seen this kind of manipulative behavior from other people in my life--including my AM and ASD. They will try to twist around your words and use them against you. It can confuse you--especially if you are feeling tired or emotionally wrecked already.
You got it right in your title. He is trying to manipulate you. He is pulling out all the stops--trying to make you feel sorry for him, trying to make you blame yourself for his usage--he's trying to put all the blame on you. You are getting help, and so he is lashing out at you. When you didn't fall for his manipulation, he became verbally abusive.
It is probably best to stay away from his manipulative words as much as possible. If you can, block his number or let his phone calls go to voice mail. I've seen this kind of manipulative behavior from other people in my life--including my AM and ASD. They will try to twist around your words and use them against you. It can confuse you--especially if you are feeling tired or emotionally wrecked already.
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In october I left him and took our toddler away from him at the request of social services.
Lose him. Lose him now.
You will be in my thoughts this evening.
ZoSo
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Sorry, I just want to clarify again that all I'd said was that the meeting was emotionally draining. Nothing more, I wouldn't break anyone's anonymity/trust.
My top priority is keeping my daughter safe and happy. Unfortunately that means that no contact isn't a great option right now due to previous stalking/harassment. I'm working with the women's centre on this and am considering a refuge. I have an appointment tomorrow morning to talk about it.
I know he's playing on my emotions and the fact that I put other people first. Being able to see that is progress to me- earlier in the week there were a few comments about being alone being soooo difficult etc. Yeah right, I wonder if it's as difficult as staying up all night living on your nerves waiting for a man twice the size of you to get home to see whether he's angry tonight- because staying up is easier than being woken up. I doubt it!
My top priority is keeping my daughter safe and happy. Unfortunately that means that no contact isn't a great option right now due to previous stalking/harassment. I'm working with the women's centre on this and am considering a refuge. I have an appointment tomorrow morning to talk about it.
I know he's playing on my emotions and the fact that I put other people first. Being able to see that is progress to me- earlier in the week there were a few comments about being alone being soooo difficult etc. Yeah right, I wonder if it's as difficult as staying up all night living on your nerves waiting for a man twice the size of you to get home to see whether he's angry tonight- because staying up is easier than being woken up. I doubt it!
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I am so glad I posted this last night. The experiences during the relationship mean that I question my opinions, decisions and even memories. Many a time I've convinced myself or been convinced by him that my recollection is wrong and I'm crazy, glad to have this to read back today. I've spoken to a couple of people from my meeting by coincidence- they called me to check up on me. So today my mind is full of ES&H and I'm trying my best not to accept the unacceptable 
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Originally Posted by Windmills 
I am so glad I posted this last night. The experiences during the relationship mean that I question my opinions, decisions and even memories. Many a time I've convinced myself or been convinced by him that my recollection is wrong and I'm crazy, glad to have this to read back today. I've spoken to a couple of people from my meeting by coincidence- they called me to check up on me. So today my mind is full of ES&H and I'm trying my best not to accept the unacceptable
Remember: how things go forward for you are entirely up to you. You know what you're dealing with. Laurie wisely quoted "What Addicts Do" above this thread.
The biggest mistake I made with my AXGF is believing her when it came to her recovery, and my decision to do that was based on pure fantasy. It was based on what my heart wanted and not what I knew to be true, which was she's a sick person. Please, don't do what I did. Make your decisions based on what it is you know. Do it for you, do it for your child.
ZoSo
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The reasons are even more pathetic to read than they are in my head. I'm trying to accept that he isn't the man I wish he was and he isn't the man he pretends he is. I'm lonely and alone. I'm struggling with the loneliness more than anything, although I'm trying to fix that. I'm going to toddler groups, arranging play dates, reconnecting with old(ish) friends- those that aren't into drugs now anyway!
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Its definitely that I'm not comfortable in my own skin. I'm waiting to go onto a self esteem course and I'm trying to recall who I am. What I like doing, what music I like, what I like to wear, the things I enjoy, what I want to do with my life. It all sounds so obvious but apparently I've spent the last 3.5 years enmeshed in him. I don't know myself. I don't know anything about myself and I think when I make it to step 4 it's going to be very hard but worthwhile work. I could give you a huge list of my faults (especially those he regularly reminds me about!) but I couldn't tell you anything good about me.
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Thankyou you're right of course. I don't even know how to find out what I like, but I'm going to figure it out. I'm grateful all this has opened out for me now rather than staying with him for another 10 or 20 years. Maybe I can learn a lot from this experience? I won't say I'm grateful as I'd much prefer if my family was together and happy. But maybe someday I'll be grateful when my feelings aren't so raw
you're right of course. I don't even know how to find out what I like, but I'm going to figure it out. I'm grateful all this has opened out for me now rather than staying with him for another 10 or 20 years. Maybe I can learn a lot from this experience? I won't say I'm grateful as I'd much prefer if my family was together and happy. But maybe someday I'll be grateful when my feelings aren't so raw
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