Today....
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 924
Originally Posted by KelleyF 
Oh Leslie.....I think maybe its time to look within on this one. Perhaps you are starting to forget what you said about what your ABF did to you:
Walked all over your values, lied to you, manipulated you, verbally abusive, broke your heart (you were engaged right), he made you feel like YOU failed because you admitted that you tried to save him by devoting yourself to caring for him, lifting him up, and being his light. And maybe you didnt Discover he was cheating, but wasnt he a crack addict with deplorable morals? Didnt he disappear time and time again in your 2 years together, You know he wasnt being faithful. You just didnt catch him in the act and He didnt tell you.
My RABF has cheated on me. He didnt lie about his past drug use, he made me no promises; I choose to believe he was clean the whole time we were together because I saw no signs of use. I never saw him with drugs, or high from drugs. And in my opinion telling me he cheated 'after the fact' is not a lie.
I choose to believe that he was triggered and that he reacted and he made a choice to turn to the drugs; and in doing so he turned to the woman. It was cheating, but it wasnt a lie. I just dont see it.
Walked all over your values, lied to you, manipulated you, verbally abusive, broke your heart (you were engaged right), he made you feel like YOU failed because you admitted that you tried to save him by devoting yourself to caring for him, lifting him up, and being his light. And maybe you didnt Discover he was cheating, but wasnt he a crack addict with deplorable morals? Didnt he disappear time and time again in your 2 years together, You know he wasnt being faithful. You just didnt catch him in the act and He didnt tell you.
My RABF has cheated on me. He didnt lie about his past drug use, he made me no promises; I choose to believe he was clean the whole time we were together because I saw no signs of use. I never saw him with drugs, or high from drugs. And in my opinion telling me he cheated 'after the fact' is not a lie.
I choose to believe that he was triggered and that he reacted and he made a choice to turn to the drugs; and in doing so he turned to the woman. It was cheating, but it wasnt a lie. I just dont see it.
believe me, I HAVE looked within. I have had lots and lots of help and support to look within. looking within has helped me to see the reasons why I stayed with someone who had an addiction that hurt me so much. whether or not I know if he cheated or not, I know that he has an addiction. addiction hurts. if you want to stay in relationship with an active/early recovery addict you will be hurt.
we come to this board to offer experience strength and hope.
I have looked within, and yes, after two years of being with someone I loved and wanted to marry I had to face the reality of his addiction...not the fantasy I wanted...
I asked him to leave...and to go take care of himself, with the help of many many others who have at least an INKLING of recovery. Even with my SIX years of experience in recovery...including graduate classes, retreats, loads of friends in recovery and months of research...I asked him to go deal with his addiction/recovery.
Believe me, I have looked within. My interest in taking the time to share on your post helps me to remember, recovery works that way. None of us are unique. Our stories have common denominators. The longer you stay the more common denominators you will find. In the end you will find the common denominator is YOU.
right now YOU are deciding to stay in relationship with an addict (who cheated on you) Plain and simple. YOU. if your hope does not come true and you discover more pain just keep coming back and getting more space to express and share and find help
(keep trying to find people who will tell you about their loved one's and their relationship's success stories because they do exist...they are just exceedingly rare, and I will tell you something else...quite often the addict does not/can not stay with the person who was with them during the rough times because the trust is damaged and the resentments are resilient)
peace
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Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 445
Originally Posted by TiredandSpent
Fair enough. So his father has told you about all the horrible things he's done for how long? How long since your fiance first abused a substance?
And he's been single 5 years, not 15, and that changes the concept of what I said how? The point was most other women see him and see a miserable hot mess of trouble they want nothing to do with. They run. You on the other hand choose to stay. This is about YOU not HIM. What makes you different from those women? Why do you choose to stay when the vast majority of women having the knowledge you have would choose to leave?
That's the point. 5 years or 15, it doesn't matter.
And he's been single 5 years, not 15, and that changes the concept of what I said how? The point was most other women see him and see a miserable hot mess of trouble they want nothing to do with. They run. You on the other hand choose to stay. This is about YOU not HIM. What makes you different from those women? Why do you choose to stay when the vast majority of women having the knowledge you have would choose to leave?
That's the point. 5 years or 15, it doesn't matter.
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Posts: 445
Originally Posted by Chino
You said yourself it's because you're in love with him. Did you know that brain scans of people in love mimic those of active addicts? Brain scans of people who have been rejected or end a love affair, mimic an addict going through withdrawal.
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Posts: 445
Originally Posted by laurie6781
Nope. You are in love with the FANTASY of what he could be.
If this is as good as it ever gets, him going to rehab repeatedly to get DAD 'off his back', and just continues to be the 'confusing' mess he is
ARE YOU READY TO ACCEPT THAT??
If not, better take the FOCUS off of him and put it on yourself. Because, it will either be him or someone else.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
If this is as good as it ever gets, him going to rehab repeatedly to get DAD 'off his back', and just continues to be the 'confusing' mess he is
ARE YOU READY TO ACCEPT THAT??
If not, better take the FOCUS off of him and put it on yourself. Because, it will either be him or someone else.
J M H O
Love and hugs,
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 924
dopamine, the brain chemisty of love is the same brain chemistry of cocaine and crack
the bummer is that after using and abusing the drug to release and amplify the dopamine rush (same thing we feel in love) the user starts to lessen their ability to feel the same rush naturally, without the drug. big bummer, it's called anhedonia.
the consequences of this? the addict has a hard time experiencing joy and pleasure in normal life because their brain chemistry has been "rewired" by the drug to "need" it in order to feel joy
the bummer is that after using and abusing the drug to release and amplify the dopamine rush (same thing we feel in love) the user starts to lessen their ability to feel the same rush naturally, without the drug. big bummer, it's called anhedonia.
the consequences of this? the addict has a hard time experiencing joy and pleasure in normal life because their brain chemistry has been "rewired" by the drug to "need" it in order to feel joy
Soon-to-be-Ex-Wife of Addict
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Clarksburg, West Virginia
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by lesliej
dopamine, the brain chemisty of love is the same brain chemistry of cocaine and crack
the bummer is that after using and abusing the drug to release and amplify the dopamine rush (same thing we feel in love) the user starts to lessen their ability to feel the same rush naturally, without the drug. big bummer, it's called anhedonia.
the consequences of this? the addict has a hard time experiencing joy and pleasure in normal life because their brain chemistry has been "rewired" by the drug to "need" it in order to feel joy
the bummer is that after using and abusing the drug to release and amplify the dopamine rush (same thing we feel in love) the user starts to lessen their ability to feel the same rush naturally, without the drug. big bummer, it's called anhedonia.
the consequences of this? the addict has a hard time experiencing joy and pleasure in normal life because their brain chemistry has been "rewired" by the drug to "need" it in order to feel joy
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 164
Originally Posted by WMaxwell
Does the ability to feel joy like a normal person ever come back?
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Posts: 445
Originally Posted by KelleyF
… and in the end he asked me to do what you guys have been saying all along; let HIM handle this; don’t obsess, don’t try to figure out the puzzle of why, don’t feel responsible, don’t feel guilty, don’t worry all the time; Treat him as normal like I had been doing when I thought he was “fine”; expect of him normal things; don’t let him off the hook; don’t change who I am to try to accommodate what I think he needs. And if he fails me then let him go.
Yesterday, He did what his dad asked him to do.
He turned his medical power of attorney over to his dad & his best friend for the next 3 months. Went to his family doctor and set up weekly drug test with any failed test being reported to them. And went for another session with the psychologist and accepted the 3x week proposal; with an agreement that they will be informed if he misses any appointments.
Originally posted by: Cynical One
However, his actions, I can see that he's trying to set up safety nets and be held accountable…but it's with ALL THE WRONG PEOPLE unless his best friend or his dad both are in recovery with some depth of sobriety themselves or professionals in the field of addiction.
I don’t really understand this; others have told me that he needs relationships with other recovering addicts; and Im not saying it’s a bad thing ; but I don’t see why it is necessary. His dad has never had an addiction problem; he has had some sort of counseling in relation to his sons issues but I don’t know the details. His friend/boss – I was told that he used cocaine many years ago; but I was also told he quit on his own and had no rehab or follow up care. By many years ago, I mean like 20 yrs.[/COLOR]
Quote: Kelleyf
I think my Codependent No more book will come tomorrow in the mail. the thought of reading it makes me a bit anxious....
Others have suggested I go to a meeting; but I just dont think I can do that right now. But I feel like if Im going to continue on with him then I have to be strong enough to do whatever it takes to take care of me. and if Im not willing to do that then maybe Im making the wrong decision.
Originally posted by: Cynical One
Codependent No More has been literally a lifesaver for many of us. Read it with an open mind…and a highlighter.
You said that you don't think you can go to a meeting…then of course you can't ask or expect him to go to meetings or get help either, right?
I admit Im scared to go to a meeting; I think I mentioned in my first post, that HE insisted that I go to a meeting before we started a serious relationship. I didn’t want to do it; but he found it; gave me time and place; and basically said go. It was uncomfortable being there and I felt out of place; but I listened. I still remember parts of it; and now it seems more applicable to me. Yesterday, I told my boyfriend Id missed him and thought about him all day; he asked me how much of that was spent “worrying about him – I admitted pretty much all of it. Im trying to stop; my thoughts are constant still; but they are not swirling in a mad rush like they were. I hope that’s progress. I know that if I stay with him; then I have to be willing to do whatever it takes to keep myself healthy and happy in the process. Im working on this issue – not there yet.
Have you ever been or done private therapy?
Originally posted by:Kelleyf
Do you think he can find a way to resent me over this "plan" even though I didnt have anything to do with it? I am preparing myself for him to be more emotionally unstable because of the 3x week sessions with the Dr. but I hadnt really thought about him turning his anger / resentment towards me.
Original post by: Cynical One
Yes, he can find a way to resent anything that gets in his path during early recovery. He's seeing a doctor, what is said is between him and a licensed professional…nothing that is shared is anyone else's business. Don't ask.
Maybe this was the wrong thing to say; but I told him in the beginning that I wasn’t going to ask him about his appointments – any details, etc. That I wanted him to know it wasn’t because I didn’t care; but because it was something I knew he needed to deal with on his own; and I didn’t want him to feel like I expected him to share, or that I would be hurt in any way. But I also told him that if there was anything that he ever wanted to talk about with me; it wasn’t going to burden me. Probably the wrong thing to say – but I that is what I felt
Original post by: Kelleyf
I think Im getting more centered in that I cant HELP him through this. I need to support him; and I need to learn the best ways to do that....other than totally leaving him as suggested by many.....(you know who you are)
Original post: Cynical One
What we consider "helping" usually has the opposite effect. Good on you for accepting the fact that you can't "help". There are no children or abuse involved that I've read so far, that's the only 2 reasons I would ever suggest that anyone physically remove themselves from the situation. As much as we would like to save you from what most likely will be your path. We just don't learn our own life lessons from others. If addiction and being cheated on is tolerable, that's your decision to make. But, please do be careful, get tested, and use protection.
It hurts that he cheated on me; and I was really angry for a while; but now I have come full circle back to where I started; feeling like if it hadn’t been for his choice’ to do the drugs that night; the cheating would not have happened. (this feeling may change again – who knows) It did cause a break in trust however; and it will be a while before that can be mended. But I feel like it can. Until then, our level of physical intimacy stops at cuddling.
We have always used protection; when RABF started his job, he went in for a full physical and was tested for everything. Came back fine, but you are supposed to get re tested after so many months he said. And now, since he was with someone else; and not in his right mind enough to know if he used protection; I guess the testing time would start again. He was retested in the hospital and everything was ok. But this whole side of things terrifies me.
No, no kids...just me. Scares me too because I cant imagine having kids even in a recovery situation by choice. And I may want that one day. Not anytime soon, but in a few years.
and no, he has never even yelled at me.
Original post: Kelleyf
How old did you think he was?
original post: Cynical One
By the way others around him treat him...about the age he probably started using…16-18.
Your good; because that is about right from what he told me – college.
original post: Kelleyf
…and then he paid half year rent on my apartment without telling me, and later I found out he paid my tuition for this semester in grad school also.
Quote: Cynical One
OK, this is like really really creepy to me. I would be paying him back for both as soon as possible with a "thanks, but I can support myself".
When I went to pay my rent at the first of the month I was shocked. And then when I went online to pay my tuition – it was paid. I was sort of angry. Like HOW did he even do that.
How does he even know I had it to be paid, etc. But you would have to know his dad; I get the impression that he likes to take care of things. He can afford it; its actually a big help to me. I finally talked to the dad about it; to him I think it was a thank you for my finding his son and calling 911. I really think that was all there was to it. Hes kind of intimidating but its weird I can where RABF gets his smile.
original post: Kelleyf
RABF said he had tried crack, but didnt like it. He didnt do that drug.
original post: Cynical One
Just a couple things to keep in mind here. Snorting powdered cocaine is an expensive waste of a "good" drug. IV use gets the job done quicker with less product, and in addition there is a very deep love affair with the ritual and the needle. Crack is more pure than powder, as most of the impurities are cooked out, inhaling the vapors is the fastest and most powerful way to get any drug to the brain, even hitting on more receptors. With that being said, there is also a hierarchy among addicts…with crack addicts being the bottom feeders. Most will admit to the use of cocaine, but not crack.
This is the scariest part to me; I have never done drugs; have never been around it; all Ive seen is on tv basically. In the beginning as we were building our friendship, I noticed marks on his arm. And I got confused because he had told me that he used cocaine. Well, I had only heard of snorting it. So I got scared that he had lied and had a problem with heroin. I don’t know why but that thought seemed scarier than cocaine. So when we were together in a quiet moment I asked him about it; he told me he had never used heroin, but that he injected cocaine at the end stage of his use. And apparently that went on for a while and he got very sick from it. He said he had tried some other drugs like crack, and pills, but the cocaine was what he liked the best. I didn’t understand why anyone would want to inject the drug; why not just snort it; why use a needle – that’s like yuck; and the disturbing part was his explanation that the high from injecting was the most incredible thing he had ever felt. But you had to do it with just the right amount; or basically it would kill you. And this he seemed to find intoxicating along with using the drug. Pushing it to the max without dying. That is why he said he quit; because he knew he was going to die.
Why would there be a “love affair’ with the needle; you mean like the memory associated with it? Im assuming the more connection an addict has with the drug – like needles, or feelings of excitement in dosage – that it is harder to stop. Its very scary stuff.
original post: Kelleyf
I can say its as simple as the fact that Im in love with him
and that I believe in him
and that I think he will get better and have no more relapses.
I can say that he makes me incredibly happy as long as he is off the drugs; and I dont want to lose that. and on and on....
original post: CynicalOne
You're in love with him as he is right now standing in front of you without needing, wanting, or requiring him to change in any way whatsoever, not who you thought he was or who you think he could possibly be? And, if nothing changes, can you accept that what is…is?
Im struggling with this; I wont be with someone that is actively using and is not seeking treatment. If it’s a life of recovery, relapse, over and over….even while he is still in treatment… What sane person would want that? But how long between relapses and how bad will they be, and what would our life be like in between? Would the relapses change the person I know now; because I like that person; I trust him, I respect him; and I love him. Obviously I have work to do on this one.
original post: Kelleyf
...... and then he told me that he had been thinking about me all day too.....but that he was only "worrying" about me maybe total of 30 minutes....the rest was spent on other thoughts of me (smart answer I know) But it clarified the point to me: we cant have a relationship if all I do is worry about him and his addiction, and forget about all the things between us that are unrelated to the addiction. I dont care what you guys say....he is smart.
original post: CynicalOne
He's obviously very smart and it seems that he has been working his recovery more from our side than his side. Most addicts are also extremely codependent too, but he appears to be much more healthy than most codies and once again shows that our side becomes much sicker than theirs.
I don’t really know about how he is handling the addict side; he has never really talked about it. Except he has talked about a lot of the guilt he feels, mistakes he made, etc. Last night he told me that he called his dad. He said it was so odd to look at his phone and see his dads name there now. His dad being here I think helped him a lot; seemed like it was sort of like – he had built up this huge wall of fear, guilt, shame over things that happened and he was afraid to reconnecting with his dad; but his dad being here forced him to confront at least some of that. (his dad lives in another state). His dad so hard to explain. He was so kind to RABF, so forgiving, encouraging, but yet he stayed strong in what he expected of him. He may have handled RABF all wrong according to recovery process rules; but it seems like it has given RABF some peace regarding their situation. And I surely cant judge.
Thank you CynicalOne - your comments were very helpful to me. Made me think. Will continue to make me think. Especially about me ME and what I want.
… and in the end he asked me to do what you guys have been saying all along; let HIM handle this; don’t obsess, don’t try to figure out the puzzle of why, don’t feel responsible, don’t feel guilty, don’t worry all the time; Treat him as normal like I had been doing when I thought he was “fine”; expect of him normal things; don’t let him off the hook; don’t change who I am to try to accommodate what I think he needs. And if he fails me then let him go.
Yesterday, He did what his dad asked him to do.
He turned his medical power of attorney over to his dad & his best friend for the next 3 months. Went to his family doctor and set up weekly drug test with any failed test being reported to them. And went for another session with the psychologist and accepted the 3x week proposal; with an agreement that they will be informed if he misses any appointments.
Originally posted by: Cynical One
However, his actions, I can see that he's trying to set up safety nets and be held accountable…but it's with ALL THE WRONG PEOPLE unless his best friend or his dad both are in recovery with some depth of sobriety themselves or professionals in the field of addiction.
I don’t really understand this; others have told me that he needs relationships with other recovering addicts; and Im not saying it’s a bad thing ; but I don’t see why it is necessary. His dad has never had an addiction problem; he has had some sort of counseling in relation to his sons issues but I don’t know the details. His friend/boss – I was told that he used cocaine many years ago; but I was also told he quit on his own and had no rehab or follow up care. By many years ago, I mean like 20 yrs.[/COLOR]
Quote: Kelleyf
I think my Codependent No more book will come tomorrow in the mail. the thought of reading it makes me a bit anxious....
Others have suggested I go to a meeting; but I just dont think I can do that right now. But I feel like if Im going to continue on with him then I have to be strong enough to do whatever it takes to take care of me. and if Im not willing to do that then maybe Im making the wrong decision.
Originally posted by: Cynical One
Codependent No More has been literally a lifesaver for many of us. Read it with an open mind…and a highlighter.
You said that you don't think you can go to a meeting…then of course you can't ask or expect him to go to meetings or get help either, right?
I admit Im scared to go to a meeting; I think I mentioned in my first post, that HE insisted that I go to a meeting before we started a serious relationship. I didn’t want to do it; but he found it; gave me time and place; and basically said go. It was uncomfortable being there and I felt out of place; but I listened. I still remember parts of it; and now it seems more applicable to me. Yesterday, I told my boyfriend Id missed him and thought about him all day; he asked me how much of that was spent “worrying about him – I admitted pretty much all of it. Im trying to stop; my thoughts are constant still; but they are not swirling in a mad rush like they were. I hope that’s progress. I know that if I stay with him; then I have to be willing to do whatever it takes to keep myself healthy and happy in the process. Im working on this issue – not there yet.
Have you ever been or done private therapy?
Originally posted by:Kelleyf
Do you think he can find a way to resent me over this "plan" even though I didnt have anything to do with it? I am preparing myself for him to be more emotionally unstable because of the 3x week sessions with the Dr. but I hadnt really thought about him turning his anger / resentment towards me.
Original post by: Cynical One
Yes, he can find a way to resent anything that gets in his path during early recovery. He's seeing a doctor, what is said is between him and a licensed professional…nothing that is shared is anyone else's business. Don't ask.
Maybe this was the wrong thing to say; but I told him in the beginning that I wasn’t going to ask him about his appointments – any details, etc. That I wanted him to know it wasn’t because I didn’t care; but because it was something I knew he needed to deal with on his own; and I didn’t want him to feel like I expected him to share, or that I would be hurt in any way. But I also told him that if there was anything that he ever wanted to talk about with me; it wasn’t going to burden me. Probably the wrong thing to say – but I that is what I felt
Original post by: Kelleyf
I think Im getting more centered in that I cant HELP him through this. I need to support him; and I need to learn the best ways to do that....other than totally leaving him as suggested by many.....(you know who you are)
Original post: Cynical One
What we consider "helping" usually has the opposite effect. Good on you for accepting the fact that you can't "help". There are no children or abuse involved that I've read so far, that's the only 2 reasons I would ever suggest that anyone physically remove themselves from the situation. As much as we would like to save you from what most likely will be your path. We just don't learn our own life lessons from others. If addiction and being cheated on is tolerable, that's your decision to make. But, please do be careful, get tested, and use protection.
It hurts that he cheated on me; and I was really angry for a while; but now I have come full circle back to where I started; feeling like if it hadn’t been for his choice’ to do the drugs that night; the cheating would not have happened. (this feeling may change again – who knows) It did cause a break in trust however; and it will be a while before that can be mended. But I feel like it can. Until then, our level of physical intimacy stops at cuddling.
We have always used protection; when RABF started his job, he went in for a full physical and was tested for everything. Came back fine, but you are supposed to get re tested after so many months he said. And now, since he was with someone else; and not in his right mind enough to know if he used protection; I guess the testing time would start again. He was retested in the hospital and everything was ok. But this whole side of things terrifies me.
No, no kids...just me. Scares me too because I cant imagine having kids even in a recovery situation by choice. And I may want that one day. Not anytime soon, but in a few years.
and no, he has never even yelled at me.
Original post: Kelleyf
How old did you think he was?
original post: Cynical One
By the way others around him treat him...about the age he probably started using…16-18.
Your good; because that is about right from what he told me – college.
original post: Kelleyf
…and then he paid half year rent on my apartment without telling me, and later I found out he paid my tuition for this semester in grad school also.
Quote: Cynical One
OK, this is like really really creepy to me. I would be paying him back for both as soon as possible with a "thanks, but I can support myself".
When I went to pay my rent at the first of the month I was shocked. And then when I went online to pay my tuition – it was paid. I was sort of angry. Like HOW did he even do that.
How does he even know I had it to be paid, etc. But you would have to know his dad; I get the impression that he likes to take care of things. He can afford it; its actually a big help to me. I finally talked to the dad about it; to him I think it was a thank you for my finding his son and calling 911. I really think that was all there was to it. Hes kind of intimidating but its weird I can where RABF gets his smile.
original post: Kelleyf
RABF said he had tried crack, but didnt like it. He didnt do that drug.
original post: Cynical One
Just a couple things to keep in mind here. Snorting powdered cocaine is an expensive waste of a "good" drug. IV use gets the job done quicker with less product, and in addition there is a very deep love affair with the ritual and the needle. Crack is more pure than powder, as most of the impurities are cooked out, inhaling the vapors is the fastest and most powerful way to get any drug to the brain, even hitting on more receptors. With that being said, there is also a hierarchy among addicts…with crack addicts being the bottom feeders. Most will admit to the use of cocaine, but not crack.
This is the scariest part to me; I have never done drugs; have never been around it; all Ive seen is on tv basically. In the beginning as we were building our friendship, I noticed marks on his arm. And I got confused because he had told me that he used cocaine. Well, I had only heard of snorting it. So I got scared that he had lied and had a problem with heroin. I don’t know why but that thought seemed scarier than cocaine. So when we were together in a quiet moment I asked him about it; he told me he had never used heroin, but that he injected cocaine at the end stage of his use. And apparently that went on for a while and he got very sick from it. He said he had tried some other drugs like crack, and pills, but the cocaine was what he liked the best. I didn’t understand why anyone would want to inject the drug; why not just snort it; why use a needle – that’s like yuck; and the disturbing part was his explanation that the high from injecting was the most incredible thing he had ever felt. But you had to do it with just the right amount; or basically it would kill you. And this he seemed to find intoxicating along with using the drug. Pushing it to the max without dying. That is why he said he quit; because he knew he was going to die.
Why would there be a “love affair’ with the needle; you mean like the memory associated with it? Im assuming the more connection an addict has with the drug – like needles, or feelings of excitement in dosage – that it is harder to stop. Its very scary stuff.
original post: Kelleyf
I can say its as simple as the fact that Im in love with him
and that I believe in him
and that I think he will get better and have no more relapses.
I can say that he makes me incredibly happy as long as he is off the drugs; and I dont want to lose that. and on and on....
original post: CynicalOne
You're in love with him as he is right now standing in front of you without needing, wanting, or requiring him to change in any way whatsoever, not who you thought he was or who you think he could possibly be? And, if nothing changes, can you accept that what is…is?
Im struggling with this; I wont be with someone that is actively using and is not seeking treatment. If it’s a life of recovery, relapse, over and over….even while he is still in treatment… What sane person would want that? But how long between relapses and how bad will they be, and what would our life be like in between? Would the relapses change the person I know now; because I like that person; I trust him, I respect him; and I love him. Obviously I have work to do on this one.
original post: Kelleyf
...... and then he told me that he had been thinking about me all day too.....but that he was only "worrying" about me maybe total of 30 minutes....the rest was spent on other thoughts of me (smart answer I know) But it clarified the point to me: we cant have a relationship if all I do is worry about him and his addiction, and forget about all the things between us that are unrelated to the addiction. I dont care what you guys say....he is smart.
original post: CynicalOne
He's obviously very smart and it seems that he has been working his recovery more from our side than his side. Most addicts are also extremely codependent too, but he appears to be much more healthy than most codies and once again shows that our side becomes much sicker than theirs.
I don’t really know about how he is handling the addict side; he has never really talked about it. Except he has talked about a lot of the guilt he feels, mistakes he made, etc. Last night he told me that he called his dad. He said it was so odd to look at his phone and see his dads name there now. His dad being here I think helped him a lot; seemed like it was sort of like – he had built up this huge wall of fear, guilt, shame over things that happened and he was afraid to reconnecting with his dad; but his dad being here forced him to confront at least some of that. (his dad lives in another state). His dad so hard to explain. He was so kind to RABF, so forgiving, encouraging, but yet he stayed strong in what he expected of him. He may have handled RABF all wrong according to recovery process rules; but it seems like it has given RABF some peace regarding their situation. And I surely cant judge.
Thank you CynicalOne - your comments were very helpful to me. Made me think. Will continue to make me think. Especially about me ME and what I want.
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Originally Posted by KelleyF
See this is the thing YOU dont get; and I mentioned this before; this disease can often present itself like a wolf in sheeps clothing....because he was clean when I met him...
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Originally Posted by KelleyF
I cant even tell you how terrified I was. And having never been through this before - I was afraid that when EMS came - maybe the police would come too; so maybe the drugs shouldnt be there...so I had to deal with that....and then when his parents wanted to go to his place....I didnt want the to see it in the condition it was in; so I cleaned it up - I cleaned up the vomit and the blood and everything else...to protect his parents feelings. The whole thing was just ...horrible.
This is you trying to be in control. This was you interferring, this was you making it worse. This was YOUR sickness in action.
If you were to be arrested for tampering with evidence at the scene of the crime, would you consider yourself a victim of the consequences of HIS addiction? Or would you see it for what it really is, a consequences of YOUR addiction?
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Originally Posted by KelleyF
I realize this; why Im willing to get hurt a second time - this I dont know.
Love and belief in him means nothing. Love and belief in yourself is the solution.
As long as you don't know why you are willing to get hurt a second time, you will be hurt a second time, and a third, and a fourth, and a 56th time--as many times as it takes for you to stop the focus on what's wrong with him and start the focus on what's wrong with you.
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Originally Posted by KelleyF
I can say that he makes me incredibly happy as long as he is off the drugs; and I dont want to lose that. and on and on....
If he truly recovers he will integrate the good and bad in him (instead of splitting it Jekyll and Hyde like he's doing with the drugs) and he will mature (because maturity stops and regresses at the age he began using) and he will be a different person than he is now.
You aren't going to get just the good parts of him. You are going to get the good and bad and matured parts of him and NOBODY can predict what that will look like.
There's another phenomenon that is very common, especially among people who just dated and didn't know each other well before the recovery of the addict--they become sober and recovered, and they don't want their partner any more. They don't want a codie. They understand how sick codie behavior is, and they don't want to deal with it.
You cannot put your life and your self work on hold waiting for him to recover and make you incredibly happy. The chances of that happening are very slim.
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Originally Posted by KelleyF
Well, I didnt think HE knew I was doing this... I dont care what you guys say....he is smart.
My AS has an IQ of 148, genius level. Makes no difference.
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Originally Posted by TiredandSpent
And that was THEN, and this is now. NOW you know. NOW you see the wolf. Now you know there was never a sheep. So the choice NOW becomes, will you acknowledge the wolf, or will you focus on the sheep disguise?
I acknowledging the wolf; but I am not afraid of the wolf
Besides aren't wolves being forced into extinction?
It's such a shame because ...in wilderness is the preservation of the world
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Kelly,
In one of your posts you mentioned that you didn't understand why it takes another addict to help your abf. I came across this story on another site and thought of you. It was attributed to narAnon:
there was a man in a hole desperate and lost, crying in agony. a doctor came by and said let me help you, he reached down and the addict said, no, no you can't help me so the man left. then after a while another man saw the addict in the hole and said i am a pshycologist take my hand i can help you, the addict said no, no you can't help me, you don't understand so the man left then a third man came by and saw the lost soul in the pit of despair and he reached in and said let me help you, i am a man of god, again the addict cried no, no you can't help me. after that the addict was alone then a man came along and saw him in the hole and said what is wrong the man said i am an addict and there is no hope for me, the man climbed into the hole and down to the addict, the lost addict said what are you doing the man said, 'my name is jimmy k and i have been here before, i know the way out.'
In one of your posts you mentioned that you didn't understand why it takes another addict to help your abf. I came across this story on another site and thought of you. It was attributed to narAnon:
there was a man in a hole desperate and lost, crying in agony. a doctor came by and said let me help you, he reached down and the addict said, no, no you can't help me so the man left. then after a while another man saw the addict in the hole and said i am a pshycologist take my hand i can help you, the addict said no, no you can't help me, you don't understand so the man left then a third man came by and saw the lost soul in the pit of despair and he reached in and said let me help you, i am a man of god, again the addict cried no, no you can't help me. after that the addict was alone then a man came along and saw him in the hole and said what is wrong the man said i am an addict and there is no hope for me, the man climbed into the hole and down to the addict, the lost addict said what are you doing the man said, 'my name is jimmy k and i have been here before, i know the way out.'
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I think this quote from Ann says it best when it comes to reaching out to new posters:
You can read that entire thread here:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-reminder.html
Something we codies tend to do is repeat ourselves. An oldtimer called Just Tired/JT once told me that to say something once is to pass information, to say the same thing twice is a codependent way of trying to drum our opinion into an unaccepting mind that is not ours to change.
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...-reminder.html
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Originally Posted by KelleyF
Have you ever been or done private therapy?
I do private therapy and al-anon. Nar-anon is not very common in our area, but I go on occasion.
Original post by: Kelleyf
I think Im getting more centered in that I cant HELP him through this. I need to support him; and I need to learn the best ways to do that....other than totally leaving him as suggested by many.....(you know who you are)
Why do you NEED to support him? What will you choose if his need to have you stop interfering with him conflicts with your need to support him? Whose need is more important. (keeping in mind he asked you not to do what you are doing)
It hurts that he cheated on me; and I was really angry for a while; but now I have come full circle back to where I started; feeling like if it hadn’t been for his choice’ to do the drugs that night; the cheating would not have happened.
So it's the drug's fault? Just like the argument with his boss that 'triggered' the OD wasn't really his fault either?
Do you see why you can't be the one to 'support' him? Because you are excusing all his behavior--just like he is. He can't really recover until he holds himself responsible for his bad behavior, not arguments and drugs. Who participated in the argument. HE did. He didn't have to argue, and having argued, he didn't have to console himself with drugs. I have arguments and I have NEVER chosen to fix it up by drugging. HE chose to ingest that drug whether it was before or during or after cheating.
He chose, HE chose, HE CHOSE. This is HIM, not circumstances. HIM. And your inability to acknowledge that hinders his recovery. He needs you to back off, disengage, and fix yourself. But you need to involve yourself and you choose that your need is more important than his.
So he now has the burden of having an enabling girlfriend to deal with along with all his other problems. The ONE problem of his you have control over, the ONE thing you can do to really help him, you won't do. Because you NEED to support him.
Something to think about.
original post: Kelleyf
RABF said he had tried crack, but didnt like it. He didnt do that drug.
You have to understand, that getting HIGH is what matters. If he has the choice of cocaine or crack, he'll choose cocaine. If he has the choice between crack or sobriety, he'll choose the crack.
I know someone who mixed antifreeze in with his booze for a better kick. I have heard of someone in the army with NO way of getting alcohol spreading shoe polish on bread and letting it ferment to get high off that.
... he told me he had never used heroin, but that he injected cocaine at the end stage of his use. And apparently that went on for a while and he got very sick from it. He said he had tried some other drugs like crack, and pills, but the cocaine was what he liked the best....and the disturbing part was his explanation that the high from injecting was the most incredible thing he had ever felt. But you had to do it with just the right amount; or basically it would kill you. And this he seemed to find intoxicating along with using the drug. Pushing it to the max without dying. That is why he said he quit; because he knew he was going to die.
To know this stuff, do you understand what a hard core drug user he is? This is advanced drug use. This is very serious stuff.
And--he didn't quit. Otherwise he wouldn't have ODed on Xmas eve. Quitting without doing the internal personality work isn't recovery. It's just a pause. It would be similar to you just walking away from him without working on your codependency. You'll just go back to him or will find someone just like him.
Im struggling with this; I wont be with someone that is actively using and is not seeking treatment. If it’s a life of recovery, relapse, over and over….even while he is still in treatment… What sane person would want that? But how long between relapses and how bad will they be, and what would our life be like in between? Would the relapses change the person I know now; because I like that person; I trust him, I respect him; and I love him. Obviously I have work to do on this one.
It's a mistake to trust an addict. No one can predict the future, certainly not me, but if he's as hardcore a drug user as you've described, he's got lots of relapses ahead of him. The average I've heard is seven, but for those who have done it longer and use the most heavily relapse more.
Indeed, what sane person would stay with someone who ODed and cheated all in the same week (or a short period of time)?
No telling how long the time between relapses will be, but I can predict pretty certainly that after a relapse or two you will live the period between them on eggshells, tense and worried and hypervigilent. And the relapses will become more and more damaging to you. And babies don't always wait to be invited. And it's a whole new form of hell when there's a child involved, and I'm telling you this from experience, it's a terrible burden for a child to give him an addict for a parent.
And the longer you stay with him, the more likely you are to get pregnant.
Except he has talked about a lot of the guilt he feels, mistakes he made, etc. Last night he told me that he called his dad. He said it was so odd to look at his phone and see his dads name there now. His dad being here I think helped him a lot; seemed like it was sort of like – he had built up this huge wall of fear, guilt, shame over things that happened and he was afraid to reconnecting with his dad; but his dad being here forced him to confront at least some of that. (his dad lives in another state). His dad so hard to explain. He was so kind to RABF, so forgiving, encouraging, but yet he stayed strong in what he expected of him. He may have handled RABF all wrong according to recovery process rules; but it seems like it has given RABF some peace regarding their situation. And I surely cant judge.
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Originally Posted by anvilhead
does the feeling of joy ever come back?
yes. takes a while, lot of "rework and retraining" to do - it's like being brain injured and having to learn how to talk all over again. my husband and i are somewhere around 4.5 years clean off crack cocaine and the only area that still a bit behind is the sex dept. and i doubt we'll EVER do some of the stuff we did back then (whole inhibition thing).
recovery IS possible, physically, mentally and spiritually. i believe personally that unless the individual adresses all three elements, sobriety will always have a cheap, tinny feel to it - it's like you gotta EARN your soul back.
yes. takes a while, lot of "rework and retraining" to do - it's like being brain injured and having to learn how to talk all over again. my husband and i are somewhere around 4.5 years clean off crack cocaine and the only area that still a bit behind is the sex dept. and i doubt we'll EVER do some of the stuff we did back then (whole inhibition thing).
recovery IS possible, physically, mentally and spiritually. i believe personally that unless the individual adresses all three elements, sobriety will always have a cheap, tinny feel to it - it's like you gotta EARN your soul back.
you replied back to me a while back on some of my q's and your insight was very helpful; made me think a lot. - so just wanted to say thank you.
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