Chino

We can contribute.

Every time I did the dance of anger with my RAD, I was contributing to our toxic relationship. Every cuss word, every thrown object, every time I touched her in anger.

I have come to learn that all my anger at her was misplaced. She was out of control and I was angry that I could not control her. I tried to force my will on her, and when she wouldn't accept that, I got angry every single time until I stopped.

I wasn't really angry at her, I was angry at myself for allowing all the things I did. I was angry with myself for not finding a better way for all of us. I demanded my addicted loved one own her disease and her part of the toxicity. I had to demand the same of myself before healing could begin.

FT

Wow.

You must be SOME big, righteous, dangerous, and POWERFUL DUDE, when people have to change their locks, call the police, and turn into raging creatures at your every whim!

Cool deal!

Don't you see this?

I'm going to come at you with the same message I tried to bring you on your other thread. I recognize my message may not be welcome, but hey, what the hell.

What's done is done, so I'm not going to beat you up over leaving your home unprotected while you went 2,000 miles away, with his full knowledge you were doing so. But that's what you did.

Short of moving away from the situation, which may or may not even be possible, you can choose one of two things now: 1) Continue as you are, which only pumps this situation up into a full blast furnace. Or, 2) Dis-empower the kid.

All the police "protection", window bars, new locks, alarms and bells and whistles, may make you feel safer, but this out-of-control man-child of yours is still out there and knows your every button, every weak spot, every strong spot, every in and out of your life. Like it or not.

The only way to dis-empower this man-child is to STOP what you are doing, because you are doing EXACTLY what he thinks, expects, and probably wants.

As I suggested before, expect NOTHING out of this man-child. Not even the bad behavior you see in front of you. He's got to burn himself out, and you don't need to accelerate it any longer.

Don't expect success, don't expect failure, expect NOTHING. If he shows up, don't let him engage you. Don't freak out, don't panic, short of protecting yourself and your other kids from physical harm. Put anything you consider of value out of harm's way, even if that means in storage someplace else. It's like toddler-proofing your life.

I'd be angry, too, but it's time to remove the fire from underneath the fuel. It's time to remove the fuel, at least your component of it.

This kid was raised in a violent, alcoholic environment. Now you are getting first hand knowledge of the results of that. I'm not excusing the man-child, just explaining it.

Give nothing, or give what you expect nothing in return for. Teach your remaining children how to deal with violence and irrational behavior, which is not to return the same.

Once this kid recognizes he isn't going to get the reaction he wants any more, perhaps he will move onto more productive ventures.

I'm sorry if my suggestions are not welcome. It's just that I've already done this before.

FT

TiredandSpent

He's 22 and a druggie, and it's a great surprise to my mother and a matter of indifference to the police, and a surprise to me how bad it is.

I did not wake him up. I thought he was gone, and about 20 minutes later he came downstairs hearing us. I was on the phone when I saw him.

Ah well, it is what it is. And has to be dealt with and I'm going to deal with it by complete no contact for a very very long time.

TiredandSpent

I choose NOT to contribute, either to the worsening or to the recovery of his problems.

I don't care if I detach with love or anger or hatred or calm. I just am detaching. There's no law, moral or manmade, that says I must detach with love. This is a choice. I'm detaching first, I'll sort out the feelings later.

I choose to recover myself (and believe me he's not going to choose to help MY recovery and I choose not to let him impede MY recovery) and to help my other kids recover if they want my help (2 of them are still minors).

eyeswideshut1

Tired, I think you should stop being surprised that your son is acting out and start expecting it and even planning for it. Try to plan in advance how you can set your boundaries as lovingly as possible. If your goal is no contact, try to enforce that no contact decision with firmness and love--try to find a way to do it while remaining centered. I can tell that you love your son, even though you are angry with him right now. I could hear in your posts how badly you wanted him to be happy on his birthday. One of the side effects of codependency is that we swing from trying to rescue the addict, to feeling victimized by the addict, to persecuting the addict. You need to get out of that cycle and stay centered in a place of loving detachment. Of course, no one in this forum can say they achieve that 100% of the time, but that's the goal to strive for. And try not to encourage your other children to hate your AS. Try to help them understand that they, too, can set boundaries with love.

Chino

I said relationship, not others problems. You choosing not to have one right now with your son is completely understandable and safer for both of you.

What is your plan? Please be aware and accept that unless you take action regarding your own toxic behavior, you will continue to have toxic relationships with anyone that challenges you.

TiredandSpent

They are MY locks I'm changing. I'm not making any one else change their environment at "my whim". Uncalled for. Bullying me will not be helpful.

Yep, At 11:oo pm Sunday night when i went to bed he was getting on the plane on the ticket his grandmother and he agreed he wanted. At 5:15, 45 minutes before we were due to leave for the airport, I find out he's not going. At this point I had two choices: stay home and protect my house and disappoint many people including my 84 year old fragile father who really and truly doesn't have many Xmas's left. I'm glad I went, my other kids and rest of my family need a real Xmas, and it went all right.

Or I could have stayed at home and had no Christmas, sent the rest of the kids without me, split the family more than it was and babysat my house. Even coming back to the mess, I am glad I went.

I actually am intending to sell my 5 bedroom house and move into something smaller. I was going to do this in about 18 months. It crossed my mind to do it sooner. But I need to think it through when I'm less agitated and things have settled down. But moving and not letting him know where I'm going is definitely something that's occured to me.

He's going to have to burn himself out outside my sight and knowledge.

If he shows up at the house, and stays outside, the police will be called. If he enters the house, he will be pepper sprayed. There's a legal notice on the door that intruders can expect to be pepper sprayed. This was put up per advice of our local police. If he goes in the house when no one is there, there's nothing we can do but report the breakin and who we think did it. We are all taking our laptops/ipods/etc... with us when we leave.

It's a good idea about recording serial numbers of the large items in case he pawns them, but I think it would be hard for him to carry them out of the house. He has no vehicle, so he's stuck with smaller stuff. I'm mostly concerned with vandalism and personal harassment.

This kid was NOT raised in a violent alcoholic environment. His father was an alcoholic but not violent when he was with me. Just absent or passed out. He did get violent a few years after and visitation went bad. It took me 6 months to get the court to stop the unsupervised visitation after I found out that he was sticking them in closets and smacking them when he had them. After the age of seven my son only saw his father in restaurants and haven't seen him at all since Feb 2003. We were divorced when he was four.

We lived calmly and without crises until he was 16 and his stepfather fell apart. My second husband had a son that was schizophrenic and what they call oppositional defiant (a personality disorder percursor to sociopathy). Anyway that stepbrother had 4 felony convictions by age 12 and his father, my second husband ignore the hole thing by drinking. It was also not violent until the very last day when he shoved me and police removed him from the house and we never saw him again. So 8 of his first 20 years were spent dealing with dysfunction, and 12 of those years were happy, productive not problematic years. (my daughter is adopted, the child of my cousin who died 12 years ago leaving her orphaned at age 2; her father is in the military and we coparent her very peacefully).

I don't expect that. If he moves on to more productive ventures or not, it has nothing to do with me. My goal is to put as much distance and 'unknowingness' between him and me as possible.

I cannot contribute to his recovery or his possibilities or anything. I am too fragile myself and my other kids are in line before him.

lesliej

father was an alcoholic

absent or passed out

He did get violent a few years after and visitation went bad

he was sticking them in closets and smacking them

After the age of seven my son only saw his father in restaurants

divorced when he was four

he was 16 and his stepfather fell apart

stepbrother had 4 felony convictions by age 12

my second husband ignored the hole thing by drinking

he shoved me and police removed him from the house....

8 of his first 20 years were spent dealing with dysfunction, and 12 of those years were happy, productive not problematic years?????

TiredandSpent

The Karpman drama triangle.

The way out of that cycle is by not caring if you are the bad guy (to simplify an extremely complicated phenomenon).

Rmember, I'm new at this. A year ago, everything was fine (or seemed so, as far as I knew). Then I found out in spring he was using and lying. Late May was the first time I threw him out and made him homeless, lasted a couple weeks, then we came to an 'agreement', he'd do this, I'd do that. He would move out in December.

Well it's now December, and everything was good (altho I sensed it was off) until a couple days before Thanksgiving when I caught him using by the side of the house when I started my first thread. I reaffirmed he was moving out on the 18th since we were leaving town, he said he didn't have housing until 12/27, so he would go to his grandmothers with us between 12/19-12/27. Morning of the 19th he changed plans (and probably meant to the whole time).

The whole thing made me uneasy and I just knew it wasn't going to go well. You can read my anxiety over it in the first thread. I just didn't know it was going to be this bad, and I just didn't realize there was anything more than pot (still am not sure, but the brown stuff in the tin can seems to indicate there's more, and I suppose that all the school skipping he did in HS probably means he was doing drugs longer than I thought).

So I'm working through the steps.

1. Realization that there's a DRUG/Addction problem at all.
1a. trying to figure out the extent of it and how long it's been going on and what is the reality of the last X number of years vs my understanding of the reality.

2. Trying to get responsible help. Talking, counseling, AA/Al-anon, contracts, agreements. Setting appropriate boundaries.

3. Coming to the realization that the addiction problem is huge, deep and serious--not just a kid experimenting and on the borderline between experimenting and crossing over into real trouble--which is what I thought when I started that first thread. But that the problem is way beyond me and way more dangerous to me and my other kids than I could have ever imagined.
3a. Remembering that he's not a kid, but a man of 22.
These realizations have unfolded before your eyes.

4. Formulating a plan of action from today forward, which also has unfolded on this thread.

I haven't done this over and over. I haven't enabled for years and am breaking bad habits. We aren't repeating a cycle over and over; if anything, we are cycling through the first time.

Because of my exes, a lot of this in familar. But because it's my son, my child, a lot of this is new territory. A crueler version of the spouse problem. So i'm feeling my way through.

Right here before your eyes.

FT

I was talking about you spinning out of control and into a rage at HIS every whim, not yours.

Leslie outlined it perfectly above -- your son WAS raised in a violent, alcoholic environment, with no stable father figure in the home.

You're doing a whole lot of DOING for somebody who should become a non-participant in your man-child's behavior pattern.

Look at your huge post above. Lord in heaven. Calm down and back off. You are still spinning off in all directions, full of rage.

And he knows it. Game won.

FT

TiredandSpent

I'm not saying his childhood had nothing to do with it. If you want to go back into his family's genealogy, you can trace alcoholism back to the 1870's when a great grandfather was jailed for it. So there's also a genetic component to his problems as well.

But to say he was raised in a violent alcoholic home is wrong. Between birth and age 2, dad wasn't a noticeable problem drinker. Between age 2 and 4, dad went to work, came home, ate, socialized with the kids/babies; took a 'nap' until about 11, went out to the bars, returned after I was in bed around 2:30. Got up when they were asleep around 6 am and went to work. They saw very little of him, there was no violence, and their interaction with him was pleasant.

I was lonely and frustrated so I got my tubes tied and divorced him. Then between my son's 4th and 6th year, the routine was the same: except dad did it in his own home and stopped by our house every day after work to eat left over dinner and watch about a half hour of cartoons with them. It was still pleasant. I saw their dad spiral out of control in those years; they didn't. But between AS's 4th and 6th year his father got DUIs, lost jobs, became homeless several times, would pass out on the street, and do all the drunk behavior. But the kids never saw it. We did school and scouts and holidays and family and friends, and had a quiet peaceful routine, and dad was pretty much a steady visitor, every week day between 6 and 6:30 available for one on one pleasant attention. They got the best of him in those years.

Then dad got an alkie girlfriend and she told him he was doing it all wrong. He should have the kids over, he should have 50/50 custody, he should not be paying support, he shouldn't be going to my house--and he listened. She messed up what worked and spent thousands in court to give him what he 'should' have. Well, he got visitation and it was awful for the kids. He didn't really want them, she didn't like them, and they were mistreated. I knew it, I did what I could, but the COURTS ARE STUPID STUPID STUPID, they give alkie parents too many chances. this was when AS was 7.

It took six months and it was ONLY because my ex admitted in court he was sticking them in closets and smacking them that he lost unsupervised visitation. He refused to do supervised visitation, so the kids didn't see him for the next couple years until the girlfriend left him. By then I refused to have him in the house and he went to jail for nonpayment of child support so about once or twice I year I took them to Denny's and they'd visit for a couple hours.

When my AS was 15, I remarried. The kids liked him. Things were wonderful, better than wonderful--for a year. Then my second XH's stepson started getting into serious trouble and it brought out the crazy in his family, and he either started drinking vodka at 8 am or always had been but kept it hidden, I don't know, but things were tense. Between ages 16-19 we were focused on this kid and things were tense and bad. When AS was 19, one argument blew up and my 2nd XH was drunk (but he wasn't a belligerent drunk, just a sullen, bitter one prone to crying) and he pushed me and I called the cops and they removed him and we divorced.

For about a year after the divorce my AS corresponded with 2nd XH and met him once, but something happened and that ended abruptly and unpleasantly, but I don't know the details.

So now it's been two years and AS has done one semester of college and 3 pretend semesters of college, and has pretty much spent all day playing video games, working out at the gym and doing 10 hours a week off paid work picking up extra shifts here and there. He got away with this for little over a year and then about 9 months ago I caught on.

This has not been a problem and trouble free childhood, but it also hasn't been a childhood filled with alcoholism and violence. I wish his childhood had been better, but there were years and years and years where the only problem was the science project and a bike being stolen.

There are better childhoods and there are worse, and while he was modeled alcoholism and dysfunction, he was also modeled normalcy, productivity, warmth, and peace. He had a choice on how to conduct his adulthood.

Ann

I think it is unproductive here to try to analyze why this happened and who "should" do what.

This member is in distress and needs support. Posting what worked for us is far more helpful.

TiredandSpent, you don't have to justify anything. I'm sorry if you feel attacked here. I made mistakes too, and when I knew better I did better. That's how most of us learned.

The most important thing, right now, is to keep yourself safe and reach out for help as you have done here. This IS a dangerous situation and I am glad you have made moves to protect yourself.

Hugs

Chino

Do you see that the second statement contradicts the first?

I thought/said the same thing about a few people, situations. Then one day I said "I'm" instead of we or they, and heard the lie for what it was, as it came out of my mouth.

I've learned a lot about myself since then.

I believe you and I'm asking the Universe to bless and heal you.

FT

I agree with Ann. I do think it helps, however, not to demonize the kid. This is a mother in pain and a man-child who is also in pain. But he's not here asking for help, she is.

I've tried to offer what has worked in a very similar situation in my life. I kicked and screamed and put up barriers and made threats, all the while screaming that I was "detaching". What I was really doing was reacting.

When I say calm down and back off, I am asking you do to things I could not. That's not really fair, is it? But Lordy, I wish I had. Maybe I would have spared myself several years of useless torment.

FT

TiredandSpent

Breaking into someone's house and trashing it and conducting illegal activities and pushing your mother to the ground and spitting on your little brother's face and slapping the phone out of someone's hand who is calling the police are not WHIMS, they are terrible things to do. And not surprisingly they provoke anger. If I did these things to you, my guess is you'd be pretty angry with me for the next 24 hours hours too. Give me a break, I'm human.

And as I learn in therapy, emotions aren't good or bad, just are. Being judgmental about them is not helpful. The point is to use the anger for good (such as outlining a plan of action and resolve) not evil (such as throwing a bottle in the general direction of another person).

So not having a stable father figure in the home is responsible? Druggies come from homes without stable father figures and from homes WITH stable father figures. Why did this suddenly become a factor? And how do you know there was no stable father figure in his life? His now 84 yo grandfather lived within walking distance and was absolutely a stable father figure.

Let's see, what have I done? I've changed the locks, talked to the police, put safety bars on the windows, and made a big dent in cleaning up the mess AS left behind, and have poured my heart out on this forum. I have decided on a total no contact relationship and have talked to my mother. I've also done a couple loads of laundry, gone to the grocery store, talked to my remaining children, and put in a half a day so far at work.

Which of these things should I not have done in your opinion? Which of these things are increasing my participatioin in my AS's life?

I was unaware that large posts were frowned upon. Is that true?

"Calm down and back off." Aside from the condescending tone of your post, I assure you I have calmed down considerably since yesterday. Yes, I'm still angry. The events of yesterday happened between about 3 and 5:30 yesterday. I'm still cleaning up the mess, still have to go through his closets and drawers this evening to put his stuff in garbage bags to give to a friend and get it all out of my house (he can pick it up from a friend). I'm not looking forward to cleaning out his room. I'm sure I'm going to find stuff i don't want to find. I'll live through it.

I am angry, but less so than yesterday, and probably next week will be far less angry than I am now. It's a process. I'm not an angry person, it's not my set point. If left alone, I am pretty much a placid person. It's been a most unpleasant 24 hours and an uneasy, increasingly tense 6 weeks. Am I in turmoil and upset? YOU BET. What of it? You want to blame me for it, go ahead. I have other things to think about.

Right now I'm debating to get a restraining order. I can get one in about 2 hours if I go after work and will get one pretty much automatically for 6 weeks. The police recommended it, particularly since he assaulted a minor in my custody (spitting is legal assault in this jurisdiction). It will facilitate his removal should AS show up. OTOH, if he shows up and we call the police, they will chase him away anyway without it.

So I'm thinking it's overkill. The restraining order can wait, if he shows up to cause trouble, I can do it tomorrow or the next day or the next. And maybe AS will stay away and leave us alone. And it won't be necessary at all.

As I was writing this, my middle son called up and wanted to talk about rigging up a laptop with a camcorder and monitoring the front of the house where the cars are. He's concerned about his car. He bought and pays for that car himself. He's proud of his car and AS has taken it without permission in the past. He doesn't want dents and flat tires. He can't afford it.

I don't want to do this, I don't want to think about it. I suggested we consider waiting until something happens, but he could do what he wanted (after all it's his car and his money). It makes me angry to even have conversations like this. But you have to cope with what you have in front of you.

It won't always be like this, but it sure is like this now.

TiredandSpent

You don't know what he knows. Neither do I. For all either of us knows he's passed out oblivious to the world. Or maybe you are right and he's triumphantly rubbing his hands together, muhahahahaha.

It doesn't matter what he does or doesn't know, and it's mere speculation and pointless. And me trying to figure it out is a waste of my time. I'm working on figuring out what I know, and it seems precious little right now. I don't even know what brown stuff in a cut open beer can means.

And nobody is winning in this game. Nobody can win until addiction loses.

FT

accidental double post

FT

I apologize if I came across as sounding condescending. I didn't intend to be.

I also didn't intend to imply you caused any of this. The stable father figure thing is important, and means an in house male figure who is a presence every day, not a grandfather who is probably a great guy anyway. Lots of addicts come out of stable homes, and lots come out of unstable ones.

I disagree with you about what "whims" constitute, because to your son, those major bad acts ARE just whims, unimportant to him, meaningless in terms of their potential for harm. All his wants and needs are mere whims to him, however much they may impact you.

As to long posts, mine are rule breakers if that is the case. My point was to stop spinning off and trying to explain. Just let go. You are running around in a rage, making plans, doing all sorts of stuff. My point was, stop. Just stop.

From my perspective on the outside looking in, your life looks like a pressure cooker. You're about to blow. Your son has control. You need to defuse him. The best way to defuse him is to quit reacting. You are doing exactly what he wants.

I am not trying to make this sound easy. I went through this, and it just about wrecked my life. It almost took away my sanity. Very close to it. I just want to tell you a few things I did wrong so maybe you might learn from my mistakes.

That's all. No insults intended.

FT

eyeswideshut1

Tired, I'm glad you know about the Karpman triangle. It has been very helpful to me to try to just check in periodically and see where I am on the triangle. This doesn't mean necessarily that I can change how I'm feeling, whether I'm feeling angry and persecuting, sad and victimized, or worried and rescuing. But as I keep watching myself take those positions, I have slowly begun to perceive my own codependent patterns, and thus developed a greater awareness of the toxic ways I interact with so many people in my life. I know that I can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do, and I apologize for trying. You have to come to your own insights and decisions in your own time. But detaching with love has helped many codependents in recovery to escape all the heartache that comes with being locked in those toxic cycles. You may not be able to do it today. Maybe today you are too angry. From what I have read and heard, many people are first prompted to try to break away from the toxic cycles they are in with their addicts during an angry/persecuting phase. Anger can give you lots of energy! But in time some recovering codependents come to see loving detachment as a better alternative to the cycle of rescuing, victimhood, and persecution.

MsPINKAcres

Tired

What an awful experience to go thru with your precious son ~ someone that you can close your eyes and remember that precious little boy as a child loving his mommy more than life itself.

The anger, pain, frustration and 50,000 other emotions that overwhelm our bodies when dealing with addict/alcoholic children are devastating. I'm so glad you are seeking recovery for YOU to help your process all this pain.

I know for me ~ it has helped me tremendously to find an outlet for my anger, fear and pain ~ thru journaling, talking with my sponsor, working the steps and prayer & meditation.

I found when I was able to be calm during those crisis and chaotic moments ~ I was able to make healthier decisions for me and for everyone in my family - even when they were not able to do so for themselves. It took a while to learn to do that & trust me I don't always remember to Breathe before I face a situation - but when I do it really helps me to apply the tools of the program.

Prayers of healing & recovery for all
PINK HUGS,
Rita