Therapist advice DIRECTLY contradicts Naranon. Need E,S&H!!
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 62
Therapist advice DIRECTLY contradicts Naranon. Need E,S&H!!
So my AH and I decided to start marital counseling. He is 8 mos. clean, and I've been going to Naranon/CodA meetings for several months now. I continue to read daily, meditate, journal etc. One thing we can't seem to get past is trust. He's had a lot of affairs when he was in active addiction and even recently, I've found out he was having an emotional affair with another female addict while he was in his SLE. I've been working REALLY hard at detatching and letting it go. I cannot and will not obsess over his every move, check his records and spend my time sitting, wondering, guessing, manipulating him to get answers about his whereabouts. I've been doing a really good job keeping my mouth shut and just worrying about myself. On a side note, I look and feel better than I have in 10 years. I really am pleased at how far I've come emotionally and physically. I really appreciate my program and how much I've learned about myself.
My AH said he want to start to work on "US" until he'd had some clean time and only IF we went to counseling. I agreed. The trust is not there. We are trying to get through our resentments, but it's hard. Just when I think I've let them go, they find their way into the current disagreement. Communication has improved a good deal, as through our programs, we both have learned to quit manipulating, being passive aggressive, quit the cold shoulder and my favorite--QUIT reacting. But there still is the trust factor that doesn't go away.
We went to our first session today. After giving her a quick rundown of our status, she lays into my AH, basically telling him that the majority of our problems are his fault due to his using, affairs, lying, etc. She says that we can never earn trust back unless he agrees to live like an open book. He MUST be willing at all costs, to hand over his cell phone to me, give me all his passwords, and be held accountable for every second of his life.
Wait. What?
I tried to tell her that I'm a co-dependent and all that obsessing, controlling, investigating goes completely against everything I am learning in Naranon. She tells me that she knows I'm trying to detatch but I have to find a balance. Balance? Isn't it one way or the other??
This really bothered me. I found myself getting all worked up b/c she was validating my need to check records. I started to think, "wow, is this my pass to be able to freely check records?!" I hate that I started to feel this way, so I decided to post here and get some E, S and H because the contradictory advice is killing me.
My AH said he want to start to work on "US" until he'd had some clean time and only IF we went to counseling. I agreed. The trust is not there. We are trying to get through our resentments, but it's hard. Just when I think I've let them go, they find their way into the current disagreement. Communication has improved a good deal, as through our programs, we both have learned to quit manipulating, being passive aggressive, quit the cold shoulder and my favorite--QUIT reacting. But there still is the trust factor that doesn't go away.
We went to our first session today. After giving her a quick rundown of our status, she lays into my AH, basically telling him that the majority of our problems are his fault due to his using, affairs, lying, etc. She says that we can never earn trust back unless he agrees to live like an open book. He MUST be willing at all costs, to hand over his cell phone to me, give me all his passwords, and be held accountable for every second of his life.
Wait. What?
I tried to tell her that I'm a co-dependent and all that obsessing, controlling, investigating goes completely against everything I am learning in Naranon. She tells me that she knows I'm trying to detatch but I have to find a balance. Balance? Isn't it one way or the other??
This really bothered me. I found myself getting all worked up b/c she was validating my need to check records. I started to think, "wow, is this my pass to be able to freely check records?!" I hate that I started to feel this way, so I decided to post here and get some E, S and H because the contradictory advice is killing me.
Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 278
Much like Drs....maybe look for a second opinion. Ask for a marriage counsellor who knows about addiction. Some have far more experience in this area than others.
I personally could not stay in a relationship with someone I didn't trust...someone who had continually betrayed me. If you two can work through it...that is fabulous.
Use your intuition...if something doesn't feel right...like the counsellor's suggestions...don't do it. It sounds like the Coda and Naranon are working very well for you.
In the end...meditate...pray...ask your Higher Power what to do. I wish you all the best.
I personally could not stay in a relationship with someone I didn't trust...someone who had continually betrayed me. If you two can work through it...that is fabulous.
Use your intuition...if something doesn't feel right...like the counsellor's suggestions...don't do it. It sounds like the Coda and Naranon are working very well for you.
In the end...meditate...pray...ask your Higher Power what to do. I wish you all the best.
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: In Today
Posts: 6,101
I would suspect that your 'therapist' does not specialize in addiction and it's consequences.
Tell your AH that you just don't fit with this therapist and would like to find one that specializes in addiction and it's consequences.
Now if she does specialize in addiction and it's consequences, she sure doesn't 'get it.' Still time to check around.
Do not worry, many folks do not 'click' with the first, second, sometimes 3rd therapist they try.
Now, on the other hand, if she was explaining the above, in an effort to see how 'willing' your AH was to do these things, ie that his willingness and effort will go a long way toward SLOWLY regaining the trust he lost, then okay. From what you she said nothing about you 'checking up on him' just that he 'needed' to be willing to become an open book.
Did you tell her this goes against 'your program' of working on you and NOT being Co Dependant? And if you did, what was her response?
I suspect what she said, goes along the lines of what some AA sponsors, myself included, will tell a new sponsee. "I want you to call me everyday." Does the sponsee do it? Is the sponsee 'willing' to make that call, or does the sponsee skip days. Their complying with that simple request, shows me just how willing they are to find recovery.
She was 'looking' for a reaction from your AH and will watch to see if he follows through on this request.
J M H O
Oh and even if he does do this, you don't have to look. I know, it will make it a bit harder for you, however, you can look at this as a learning experience for both of you.
Love and hugs,
Tell your AH that you just don't fit with this therapist and would like to find one that specializes in addiction and it's consequences.
Now if she does specialize in addiction and it's consequences, she sure doesn't 'get it.' Still time to check around.
Do not worry, many folks do not 'click' with the first, second, sometimes 3rd therapist they try.
Now, on the other hand, if she was explaining the above, in an effort to see how 'willing' your AH was to do these things, ie that his willingness and effort will go a long way toward SLOWLY regaining the trust he lost, then okay. From what you she said nothing about you 'checking up on him' just that he 'needed' to be willing to become an open book.
Did you tell her this goes against 'your program' of working on you and NOT being Co Dependant? And if you did, what was her response?
I suspect what she said, goes along the lines of what some AA sponsors, myself included, will tell a new sponsee. "I want you to call me everyday." Does the sponsee do it? Is the sponsee 'willing' to make that call, or does the sponsee skip days. Their complying with that simple request, shows me just how willing they are to find recovery.
She was 'looking' for a reaction from your AH and will watch to see if he follows through on this request.
J M H O
Oh and even if he does do this, you don't have to look. I know, it will make it a bit harder for you, however, you can look at this as a learning experience for both of you.
Love and hugs,
Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a good place
Posts: 4,482
I know all my daughter's passwords, I can read her phone anytime I want, and speak freely with her doctor. I have a key to her apartment. I didn't ask for any of it, she gave it all to me. I haven't done any of that, though.
Member
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 115
family/marriage therapists sometimes have different philosophies about whether they will meet with each member individually, but if this therapist is willing to meet with you individually you may want to have several sessions (and your husband as well). this might give you an opportunity to go more indepth about your own recovery and your goals for yourself.
Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: St. Louis, Mo. USA
Posts: 265
Your having to deal with two betrayals but both stem on lies. It is a tricky situation to deal with. But you are going to have to find a way to work on both at the same time. and TRUST is the basis for all relationships. It takes TIME [years] to earn trust, and he has to do that. But you have to check up on him now and then, to know if he is doing what he says he is so he can earn it. ** You don't have to do it all the time, just at your connivence.}
He needs an Individual Counselor for his Addiction. As well as your MC for the marriage.
Be well.
He needs an Individual Counselor for his Addiction. As well as your MC for the marriage.
Be well.
Last edited by Ann; 12-06-2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: removed link
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 62
Yes we've both done some individual and I really never seem to get a good therapist. I really want someone who understands codependency. When ah went to rehab I was seeing this quack who discharged me after 3 sessions bc he thought I had a good handle on things. Little did he or I know that I was completely at rock bottom of my codependency. His focus was to teach me how to cope when ah was having a relapse. Watch my favorite show, listen to music. No idea that my obsession and madness was my own codependency issue. Anyways, I'm beginning to feel like I'm being too critical, but I think that neither of us can heal individually or as a couple without someone who understands the addict/Codie dynamics
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Join Date: Apr 2011
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Ughh. So annoying. I'm sitting here cooking dinner and my rah throws a list of emails/passwords/Facebook onto the counter. Hes already having a resentment over his invasion of privacy and I didn't ask him for them. I just kept my mouth shut and pretended not to see it. Just the idea of me record checking works up all these Codie feelings in me and addict behaviors in him. Where's my serenity i worked so hard for?
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Join Date: Jun 2011
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To set the background so I make some sense
I have been doing IC for a long time. The woman I see has a lot of experience in addictions and experience in eating disorders which is my background. She quickly called a spade a spade when my husband's drinking was starting to be a concern for me. She is a HUGE fan of AA, Al-anon etc and herself is celebrating something like 35 years in recovery from both sides.
Then my husband's affair happened. I really liked the woman we saw for marriage counseling, but she did not have an addictions background. We saw her twice together and then once individually before coming back together for continued appointments. She talked with my individual counselor during that time also to get some background on me. She encouraged my husband to start his own individual work too. She is not a big fan of AA and Al-anon, though she was supportive of anything we were willing to try.
They did have pretty different approaches and background, but the counseling worked (at least for me) because I was able to work on my own stuff in IC and focus on relationship stuff in MC. At times it was a fine balancing act for me though.
I had to have the IC though or I don't know if MC would have worked for me. Al-anon honestly helped me to recover and detach both from the use of a substances in my loved one and the betrayl of an affair, but that does not mean that I always agree with everything I learn there either. IC was my place to sort out all those types of things, stuff coming up in Al-anon, stuff coming up from MC, stuff coming up from my childhood that all of this triggered.
I think what I am saying is that it was a tough thing to sort out the difference between MC and Al-anon and I had two great counselors that I liked helping me. People I was able to say if something was working for me or not.
I really like the website that was posted above and have learned a lot from it about affairs (I don't post there like I do here). I also read a number of good books about the subject of affairs (PM if you would like the titles). My fave though not directly related to affairs is called "How Can I Forgive You, and the Courage Not To," by Janis Abrahms Spring (whose main work is in affair recovery)....this helped me with a lot more than the affair though too.
Finally my last resonance with your situation is this. They estimate it takes at least two years to recover from all this type of stuff....be gentle on yourself. For me it has all come in waves, and sometimes it is hard to not be hard on myself.
I think that was all over the place and for that I apologize. I think you asked a great question.
I have been doing IC for a long time. The woman I see has a lot of experience in addictions and experience in eating disorders which is my background. She quickly called a spade a spade when my husband's drinking was starting to be a concern for me. She is a HUGE fan of AA, Al-anon etc and herself is celebrating something like 35 years in recovery from both sides.
Then my husband's affair happened. I really liked the woman we saw for marriage counseling, but she did not have an addictions background. We saw her twice together and then once individually before coming back together for continued appointments. She talked with my individual counselor during that time also to get some background on me. She encouraged my husband to start his own individual work too. She is not a big fan of AA and Al-anon, though she was supportive of anything we were willing to try.
They did have pretty different approaches and background, but the counseling worked (at least for me) because I was able to work on my own stuff in IC and focus on relationship stuff in MC. At times it was a fine balancing act for me though.
I had to have the IC though or I don't know if MC would have worked for me. Al-anon honestly helped me to recover and detach both from the use of a substances in my loved one and the betrayl of an affair, but that does not mean that I always agree with everything I learn there either. IC was my place to sort out all those types of things, stuff coming up in Al-anon, stuff coming up from MC, stuff coming up from my childhood that all of this triggered.
I think what I am saying is that it was a tough thing to sort out the difference between MC and Al-anon and I had two great counselors that I liked helping me. People I was able to say if something was working for me or not.
I really like the website that was posted above and have learned a lot from it about affairs (I don't post there like I do here). I also read a number of good books about the subject of affairs (PM if you would like the titles). My fave though not directly related to affairs is called "How Can I Forgive You, and the Courage Not To," by Janis Abrahms Spring (whose main work is in affair recovery)....this helped me with a lot more than the affair though too.
Finally my last resonance with your situation is this. They estimate it takes at least two years to recover from all this type of stuff....be gentle on yourself. For me it has all come in waves, and sometimes it is hard to not be hard on myself.
I think that was all over the place and for that I apologize. I think you asked a great question.
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Join Date: Sep 2011
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I've spent thousands and thousands of dollars on therapy. I never gave up trying to find the right one and when I did...I knew immediately that I found the one that clicked.
We have gone to this same therapist off and on for the past 18 years.
One of the many pearls of wisdom that he has shared with me over the years (and can be applied to ANY relationship mother/daughter, husband/wife, friend/friend.....)
"In any relationship....you are either working to stay in, or you are working to get out"
Edited to say that we started going to him 18 years ago for family counseling when my (then) 14 year old daughter was
acting out and using drugs. She is now 32 and a full blown meth addict....currently in prison serving a 10 year sentence for burglary. But this guy kept me 1/2 way sane thru it all.
We have gone to this same therapist off and on for the past 18 years.
One of the many pearls of wisdom that he has shared with me over the years (and can be applied to ANY relationship mother/daughter, husband/wife, friend/friend.....)
"In any relationship....you are either working to stay in, or you are working to get out"
Edited to say that we started going to him 18 years ago for family counseling when my (then) 14 year old daughter was
acting out and using drugs. She is now 32 and a full blown meth addict....currently in prison serving a 10 year sentence for burglary. But this guy kept me 1/2 way sane thru it all.
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston, Ma
Posts: 184
Honestly, I dont see how this helps. My mother in law's husband "gave her his passwords" too. then he was just doing all his sketchy stuff (like supporting another woman and children in another country while my mother in law was working/pregnant) under new emails and new accounts that he made after the fact. Isnt resentment and lack of humility a sign that recovery and wanting to change isn't genuine?? My brother, the ONE time he was "genuine" about recovery, would say flat out "I dont want to be alone, I cant be trusted, don't give me money, don't leave me alone on the phone or computers," Etc. etc.
Just a thought?
Just a thought?
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 317
I think he should hand those passwords and cell phone over to you to prove trust. He is the one the made you loose trust, and you are the one that stayed with him even though he cheated. You do not have to check that stuff.. it is the principle of him not being allowed to hide things from you.
Good luck, hugs
Good luck, hugs
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 3,335
He must be willing and you must find balance...
That doesn't seem like bad advice.
What YOU want should also come into the equation. Do you want to be married to someone you can't trust, where you have to police his every move, and be responsible for him as if he was a twelve year old and not a full grown adult?
What are YOUR reservations? Specifically. Don't just lean on co-depedency. Be specific... I feel... I want... I don't want... I am willing to.... My boundaries are.... Then share that information with your therapist and your husband. And never forget that NO is a complete sentence.
Your therapist is a human... and her advice is just her opinion. And you know what they say about opinions... everybody has one. (Including me :-0) In the end, you are only responsible for your own choices and your own happiness.
Maybe you aren't ready for couples therapy yet because you have too much self-work to do. Maybe work your recovery separate from your husband. Figure out what you want and what you are willing to do. And then go and do it.
And PS. Throwing passwords and papers at me is disrespectful and doesn't indicate willingness to me. Maybe that's your reservation? In your heart you know he truly hasn't changed. Just because someone gives up using drugs doesn't mean that they turn into the nice person we hoped they would be.
That doesn't seem like bad advice.
What YOU want should also come into the equation. Do you want to be married to someone you can't trust, where you have to police his every move, and be responsible for him as if he was a twelve year old and not a full grown adult?
What are YOUR reservations? Specifically. Don't just lean on co-depedency. Be specific... I feel... I want... I don't want... I am willing to.... My boundaries are.... Then share that information with your therapist and your husband. And never forget that NO is a complete sentence.
Your therapist is a human... and her advice is just her opinion. And you know what they say about opinions... everybody has one. (Including me :-0) In the end, you are only responsible for your own choices and your own happiness.
Maybe you aren't ready for couples therapy yet because you have too much self-work to do. Maybe work your recovery separate from your husband. Figure out what you want and what you are willing to do. And then go and do it.
And PS. Throwing passwords and papers at me is disrespectful and doesn't indicate willingness to me. Maybe that's your reservation? In your heart you know he truly hasn't changed. Just because someone gives up using drugs doesn't mean that they turn into the nice person we hoped they would be.
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