coffeedrinker

I have dual sympathy here.

On the one hand, I know that you need to be done enabling your son, and begging him in vain to act like a responsible young adult.
Telling him he is no longer welcome, and keeping it short and sweet is the way to do that.

On the other hand, it seems punitive and cruel to buy a plane ticket and tell him up front, "go on this trip, but when the plane lands back on our ground, you are being left behind at the airport." Really sounds like drama.

Why on earth would someone wish to go on a trip under these tense circumstances. I'm kinda upset and it's not even me you're treading with an utter lack of dignity.
If I did go, for whatever reason, why would I not be angry?

TiredandSpent

I didn't buy the plane ticket for him. I bought one for me and my other two sons. My mother said she was going to buy the plane ticket and wanted him on the same flight to avoid having to go extra times to the airport during the holiday season. She arranged it with my pothead son that he'd come but stay at my brother's house. She was going to pay for the ticket but asked me to buy it so he'd be on the same flight. She was going to reimburse me, but she hasn't yet. I have the feeling she won't, so I was duped by my mother into buying the ticket.

It's iffy to know whether or not I can have the police remove him from the premises. Last summer when he broke into my house to live there, I did call the cops to have him removed. They came out, saw the house was broken into, but since he'd been living there and it was on his driver's license they said I'd have to get a court order to remove him. Pothead son knows this.

I had him change his address with the DMV in May however the license he carries around with his has my home address still on it. If I call the cops today to remove him, I'm not so sure they would or if they'd tell me I need a court order. They'd just roll their eyes, domestic problems, and tell me they can't make a decision, a judge will have to.

If I went to court, I'd get the court order, but I wouldn't be able to get into the court until early Jan. Probably not, but the judge might give his 30 days.

But my son doesn't know that. He knows he officially changed his residence address, and he knows the last time the cops wouldn't remove him without a court order. He doesn't know I wouldn't be able to get one until Jan. He thinks I could walk in the court Monday morning and have one by 10 am. So to him, a 3 week notice is a lot. But he does know I can have him thrown out by cops, so he will move.

I am hoping for a return on my investment in his future--the same one I am hoping for from helping my other two sons finance their college. I want them to be prosperous and happy. Why do any of us help our kids through college? Instead of college I'm helping him with some specialized training. He's in the equivalency of his final semester of college.

I don't expect any monetary payback from him getting this job, nor glory. Even if he gets the job, he would completely anonymous, so there's no stage-mom type of glory even though I used the word audition. I just want him warm and safe and dry, since I am pretty much done with him. And there's a part of me that hopes if he's happy (which he will be working for them, at least for a while) and productive, he won't be so angry with me and maybe in a year or two he'll call me on occasion to say hello or come by for dinner when he's in this part of the country.

I'm his mother, I love him, I want him happy and I want to keep in touch with him. This job he could do and live well at even with his pot problems. I don't know what he's going to do otherwise. Why won't any of his friends take him in and give him a couch? And if they do, how will he get to his 10 hour a week job if his bike won't work.

These thoughts make me very anxious. It will be like before. Him homeless in the park, stealing food. He'll be off pot then because he won't be able to afford it or get to it. So he'll be sober and desperate. He'll be arrested for stealing food and get a record. When you are like that you can't get jobs, at least not around here. He will be suicidal. His life sober will be worse than his life using. I don't want him dead.

It's why I let him come back last time. He was going to get a job. But he didn't...so there's no more coming back. So I'm intensely anxious about him. This job would be a godsend. It would be like handing him over to his other parent (which he doesn't have). They would feed and clothe him, house him, give him medical attention and money and transportation and schedule most of the hours of his day. And he'd happily comply. He'd be warm and safe and dry...and i wouldn't have to worry.

Would his substance abuse problems eventually get worse and mess it up for him? Maybe, but that would be years away (they have a certain tolerance for substance abuse in this organization).

My pay off is it'd be easier to detach if he were with them. It'd be easier to detach if he were sleeping on a friends couch. It's almost impossible--but absolutely necessary--if he's sleeping in the park, starving and suicidal.

He's my kid and I love him. And I can't believe how badly and how soon he failed life.

TiredandSpent

I took this off of Overblown's Homeless Teen thread. Then realized that I was diverting her thread so copied and pasted it here. I think this is the crux of the problem for me and for many of us. And probably one which you veterans have dealt with a thousand times.


I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm trying to understand. I'm in the same situation.

But my question is: What about the parents of the dead kids? Do they wish they'd enabled longer?

I don't care so much if he's uncomfortable. I care desperately if he's dead. I'm angry enough to be glad in a way that he's faced with the harsh consequences of his bad behavior. But I don't want him dead, or beaten, or raped. That makes his problems harder to overcome.

And his behavior, while bad and selfish, hasn't been frightening or psychopathic. He's a stupid, immature, stubborn, addicted to pot (nothing else) kid, whose drunken father on court-ordered visition used to put him in the closet for hours and who choked him, and who used to rage for hours at him (until I got visitation supervised). He's a kid with problems, ADD, panic attacks, anxiety, migraines.

If someone could assure me that he wouldn't die from the loss of my support, or wouldn't be further victimized, raped, beaten, etc... it would be so much easier. If he were breaking into houses, beating up old ladies, it'd be easier.

He buys $60 of pot a week. He's massively lazy. He's mouthy and self absorbed. He's stubborn. He has the emotional maturity of a 15 year old. He won't go to counseling, the one time he tried it, it was the wrong counselor--someone with ego problems who preached at him and didn't listen (I sat in on a session or two and saw it was a wrong fit, but it was too late). Should people die from this at age 18 or 20 or 22?

And when they do, what do the parents of the dead kids say they wished they had done?

TiredandSpent

I'm going because my other two sons want me to go. Because my beloved stepfather is 82 years old and frail. Because i grew up there and have friends I want to see. Because my other sons and I will have a blast skiing and doing the things we do up there. Because my old church, my 'home' church is there and I'd love to go on Xmas eve. Because Xmas here just the 3 of us will be sad and lonely.

And because my mom and brother have no idea how hurtful they are being. THere's no addiction in our family, not for generations in memory. It's not a known problem. They don't understand and they mean to help. They are trying to be fair and just don't know what it's like. The lies, the manipulations are all brand new to them.

I am seeing a therapist for the ptss and the codependency and am on antidepressants and have group therapy. It's all a work in progress. All of us.

greeteachday

As one, I would answer most definitely no. My enabling did not extend my daughter's life. I try to remind myself that i did the best I could with the tools i had at the time, but still sometimes in the darkness of night, I do ask myself, what if I had gone to Naranon sooner, had stopped enabling sooner, had "helped" by letting her feel the pain of her addiction sooner - Maybe she would have really wanted recovery, and done whatever it took to find it.

lesliej

part of my letting go had to do with transparency. honesty is the cornerstone of recovery (of life really!)

because I wanted/needed other important figures in my exABF life to know my truth (which felt like a more honest representation of HIS truth as well) I sent them a transcript of my posts to read...my thought was that hear I am being so true to what is happening...why rewrite the book, why not just let them read it and perhaps understand more. maybe it was just another expression of codependency, but it brought me peace to know that others knew my truth in the situation.

we often suffer in shame and isolation for something that is not within our control. we didn't cause it and we can't cure it. let people in to your suffering, who knows...maybe they might just find some understanding!

FT

TiredAndSpent,

I may not be a veteran of the F&F on SR, but I am a veteran of raising some difficult men.

I am not trying to be argumentative, either, but I do want to make a couple of comments.

The most shocking thing to me about your world view is when you said, "And I can't' believe how badly and how soon he failed life." My God. "Short-sighted" would understating my reaction to that statement.

I can see my above comments might not have been welcome since no one made any comments on it whatsoever. But I'm here to tell you that your approach did not work for me either. What did work was when I stopped doing what you are doing.

What you are doing probably looks a lot like harping to your son, and he's heard it so long, and lived with the bargaining so long, he no longer hears the message.

He's 22. He's a kid. He hasn't had time yet to "fail" at life. I don't mean to be hurtful, but our kids are not "our" kids. Their successes and/or failures do not "belong" to us either. I am not suggesting you want financial payback -- but you DO want payback, that much is clear. That is a seriously heavy burden for any human being to carry, especially one so young. Maybe he doesn't try because he knows he can never live up to your expectations.

I think the best thing you could do for this kid is leave him alone. Kick him out or don't kick him out, but leave him alone. Give him as much money and support as you feel like giving, with the full expectation and knowledge you will receive nothing in return for it. And tell him that.

You are so clearly wrapped up in your children's accomplishments, it must be sheer torture for you. You sound distraught, and I don't want to contribute to that with callous comments. None of this is meant to be that.

My "men" did not hit their stride until their 30's. I stifled them in their 20's just like you are doing. It wasn't until I learned to let go that they were able to blossom, in their own ways, and they "own" their own successes. I truly wish you luck.

Please don't call a 22 year old kid a "failure" at life before he's even had a chance to really show you what he is capable of. If he does not "succeed" by your measure, at least he will own it.

FT

useyourwords

I am not the parent of a child lost to addiction, so I cannot answer your question directly. But I can share my experience. My Asister dated a guy from her early teens who became part of our family. He had a very wealthy family, but they "detatched", leaving him homeless so my mom took him in. He was a wonderful person -- I am tearing up just thinking about him now, but his addiction had turned him into . . . well, an addict! My mom enabled he and my sister for years, to a frightening extent. Program after program, bailing out of jail, paying for all their expenses, etc. Once I "woke up" and stopped it became a big source of tension between my mom and I. She always argued that if she didn't do it, they would end up on the street and eventually dead.

Shortly after one attempt to get clean, my sister went out for no more than a couple hours. When she came back to my mother's house she found he had ODed -- he was gone by the time she got there, though she tried CPR. It was devestating, despite the fact that every one of us knew one day it might happen. You simply cannot ever prepare yourself . . .

So, what did my mother say and his family say . . . My mother regretted the enabling. For the first time ever she acknowledged that allowing them to live in her house and never holding them accountable did not help their addiction. It was the first time I had hope that maybe she would seek help for herself, maybe something would change. At that time in our lives I really worried my mom was going to have a stroke if something didn't change -- her health seemed to be suffering, her BP was high, she was not sleeping well or eating well, etc. Unfortunately she is a codie to the core, and now my sister was not only an A, but an A who was coping with the death of her bf. My mom was now even more panicked about my sister and though she acknowledged that she regretted enabling them for so long, she suddenly was using the death as a new reason to enable -- now it was about supporting my sister in her grief.

Her bf's family, most of all they just seemed to be comforting my mother. His dad said to my sister and I on several occassions, "we did what we could, he wasn't ready for help, he knew we were here if he ever was ready". And that was true. They told my mom she did her best, and tried to explaine to her what they knew, which was that it didn't matter what they did or what she did, he was consumed by his A and no one could have changed that except him. I never got the sense his family regretted their decision. I got the feeling they felt horrible for my mother that she went through hell and back, but we all ended up in the same place . .. trying to make sense out of something that simply never makes sense.

To bring us up to today . . . my mom continued enabling my sister, she got clean for a little while after her bfs death (well, suboxone clean, not clean clean) then relapsed. My mom denied the red flag then, because she was convinced after her bfs death there was no way she could relapse (my mom maintains a shocking level of denial about how addiction/recovery works). The chaos continued until last Christmas when my sister hit her own bottom and on her own decided she needed help - needed REAL recovery, inpatient which she had never done. My mom told her she could do it through outpatient with methadone or suboxone so she could continue living at home (:codiepolice ). My sister had to convince (actually insist!!) that living with my mom, on methadone or suboxone, was not going to work for her. That she needed detox, inpatient, and long-term changes to give her the tools. She is in recovery now, with one relapse when she came home to visit for a week after 8 months clean.

One day at a time . . . and every day I feel blessed that she is not dead, because I know it could just as easily have been her. I stopped enabling years ago and I often tried to imagine how I would feel if one day I got the call I got when her bf died. Who knows, you simply can't imagine that. What I know for sure is that HER RECOVERY IS HER RECOVERY. Nothing I did or do can help her. Nothing my mom did or does can help her. She has had to help herself. She could relapse again tomorrow. She could die tomorrow (god, my hands shake to type that). Enabling her doesn't change that. If anything, it makes it worse.

Finally, as I have said here before. My sister, since being in recovery, has repeatedly told my mom if she starts using again never to take her back in, bail her out of jail, or give her money. She knows that stuff never helped her, only hurt her. What is sad is that she knows if my mom doesn't find her own recovery that she will likely take her right back in.

Ugh, sorry, really long and may not have helped at all . . . Take care.

KariSue

I completely sympathize with your situation. I have had similar problems but not exactly the same. But, here is what I am noticing from your last two posts. You are doing something I realized I was doing too and I am trying to stop. I think around here they call it "awfulizing". You are running a movie in your head of the worst case scenario and basing how you feel on that scenario.

Your scenario about him not having money for pot, then sleeping at the park, then stealing food and going to jail and not being able to get a job with a record. You go all the way to suicide. But if you look at how YOU are thinking, you are predicting the future and it may not turn out that way at all. It may not even be close. He may do just the opposite and surprise you. On the other hand, he may steal food and go to jail and he may just decide that jail sucks and make changes. Maybe a friend will let him sleep on the couch. Maybe the mother of that friend may be able to get through to him because she isn't emotionally involved. You know, good things could happen too!

Do you see how you are just looking at the worst possible scenario and getting stressed about something that hasn't even happened? *hug* Forgive me if I forget some of the facts as I don't want to go read it all over again. I think you may have said that he did get arrested in the park before. But okay, if so, that was before, this is now.

I remember someone saying once that if you are going to run a movie in your head then at least pop some popcorn and have it while it is playing, lol. When you feel yourself starting to awful...ize think of going to the kitchen for some popcorn.

Mine is still home but, for now, I believe drug free. His is a different type of situation where he is sober for long periods and then seems to relapse. Working on my own plan for getting him out. He just lost his job (through no fault of his own) so it might be a while, sigh....

Anyway, I kind of get it so hope the above helps a little.

Kari

P.S. Oh and what someone else said about not giving him chores like a little kid, I don't agree. Any adult who is living in the house for ANY reason should be regularly helping out. It's not demeaning someone to ask them to pull their weight.

TiredandSpent

Well, 20 days to go and we'll find out.

No matter what he's out. I hope one of his friends takes him in. But he doesn't seem to have a stable of enablers who will let him mooch off them.

I've resolved after he's out if he comes back for help, all he'll get is a meal at Denny's with me. I'll pick him up at the corner, take him for a bite, maybe a sandwich to go, talk about whatever he wants, and then let him go off whereever.

It's funny you are all coming down so hard on me for being so enabling. In my real life people are coming down hard on me for the opposite. "You are jumping the gun, you are over reacting. It's not that bad. You should try this and this and this first."

It's just pot, and he's not even 'addicted' just a user on occasion. He's a late bloomer, he can stop smoking for months at a time, you are being too hard on him, he's just a mixed up kid, he needs time and some direction and patience and a firm hand.

It just makes me want to run away.

My mother emailed, How about this program, here's a link, it would be perfect for him for these reasons.

I emailed back, "You need to discuss this with him yourself. I'm just about done. Send the link to him."

I want to be left alone. I'm almost paralyzed with depression and sadness today.

TiredandSpent

Yes, I'm awfulizing. It's based on the last time I put him out and he stole food from stores and was not allowed even to sleep in the park.

I came out at 6 am to go to work and he was sitting under the tree. My heart sank. "You win." he said. "What did I win?" "You're right. I can't make it on my own." "Of course you could make it on your own, if you would get a job and work 40 hours a week like everyone else."

I sent him away with a sandwich and said I'd meet him at Denny's for dinner. But he couldn't come home. At Denny's I relented. He couldn't get a job because he was dirty and unshaven. But he would. It was the first time I had thrown him out, and I was surprised how few resources he had,s o of course I wanted to believe he'd hit bottom and learned his lesson. So I relented and said if he got a job, if he pulled his housekeeping weight, if he were pleasant at home, if he stopped using, he could come home. And that's when he said, "Thank you. I was going to jump off a bridge if you said no".

He didn't up his work hours from 10 hours a week to something else. He sort of does the dishes (he did them last night at about 6). He's pretty much been pleasant at home, until Tgiving when I said because he was using pot again he had to leave, and then it wasn't raging but sullenness and his wish I would lose my job.

Since he didn't do what he promised last time, next time I won't let him come home. No listening to promises. I'm shocked that that experience changed nothing except made his on the surface more pleasant and he will begrudgingly and badly do dishes. He learned nothing. He's not willing to change.

I'm calling his bluff about jumping off the bridge. And of course I'm very anxious about it.

FT

TiredAndSpent,

Another thing that helped me was getting counseling for ME so I could cope with stressing over my kids. You seriously need to let go and quit internalizing every single teeny tiny thing your son does. What would happen if you totally backed off of him for awhile? Quit fighting. Quit doing the laundry. Quit trying to force him out. Quit trying to know how he is doing every second of your existence?

You are one HUGE ball of nerves, and like any other dense object, your energy is drawing in other dense objects around you -- meaning him, and every other negative energy surrounding you.

I, too, am a "fixer" of other people's lives. It is only in retrospect that I realize how much harm I was causing my family by behaving in that manner. I still do it, but to a lesser degree. I gotta tell ya, letting go of my kids has been the hardest thing I have ever had to do in my life. I'm sure it doesn't help having your mom and a bunch of other people Monday morning quarterbacking your every action.

FT

KariSue

As I recall, I think my son hinted at suicide once. I just said that he felt like that, that he should tell me and I'll drive him to the ER.

Grandchildren are in my mix and he also said they might not be able to see me if he couldn't come here. I called his bluff on that one and said "Well I've already arranged with ex wife that she will bring them here to see me so that won't be a problem." His mouth kinda hung open.

It's hard to figure out what to do sometimes...well, a LOT of the time.

outtolunch

Why, it sounds like a lovely holiday. And yet, in your first post you said your were dreading the holidays and wished you were not going.

TiredandSpent

Yes, I also dread them. I dread the walking on eggshells if my pothead son goes. The watching of interactions between us by my mother and brother and sister in law (who's a lovely person but has a lot of opinions).

If he doesn't come I dread everyone missing him and silently blaming me. I'll miss him too. He was born at Christmas. It will be my first CHristmas without him. One of his brothers wants him to go very badly.

In either case I dread the discussion of what went wrong and how I can fix it....

So parts will be good and parts will be bad.

TiredandSpent

That's a great idea. I'll bring it up if he does. And if he doesn't, before he leaves, I'll say that if he feels suicidal to go to the ER or call 911, they'll take care of him and will fix him up with social workers and whatever he needs.

outtolunch

Back when, I had attached my own emotional well being to the lousy choices my daughter was making. The depression and saddness were overwhelming, too. The more I focused on my daughter, her issues, the less control I had over my own emotional stability. I remember at one point screaming to no one in particular that I had not raised my daughter to destroy her life....... and I was not about to let that happen, blah, blah, blah. You see, I made it all about me and my own ego.

Coming to terms with my role in all that happened and letting go of my fantasy that I had any control, let alone influence over my adult daughter was the most humbling experience of my life.

TiredandSpent

Oh absolutely. Until last year I was completely comfortable with my family. I'm comfortable at work. I'm comfortable with my friends in both states and at work and outside.

My sadness and depression isn't just my son, it's the total ruination of my life, the second divorce, the bankruptcy, the foreclosure. You put your eggs of happiness in several different baskets, and right now most of my baskets have broken eggs.

The divorce and the ptss are easing greatly, the BK and FC are hard and anxiety provoking but in the hands of good lawyers. I just wish it were over. i don't care if I get to keep the house or not. I just want to know, but probably won't for another year or so--it's so long a process. My pothead son will sink or swim, and I'll know within 6 weeks or so which it will be.

It's just one of the darkest periods of my life. I went through something like this minus a FC and pothead son 10 years ago. It was so hard to rebuild, and smash, I'm back where I was, worse off. I have no choice but to rebuild and have a plan and it will all work out sort of. But I'm horrified by how easily it all fell apart again. I'm sad for my kids, all of them, and sad for me. On top of that my dog is dying.

Hanna

You can also get him a list of shelters, and a bicycle if it will make you feel better.
We gave my brother that list, and by golly he found one that wasn't even on the list, got a meal, got a shower and stayed there for about 4 days until the free rehab facility had space for him. Told one family member that the first night in there was the best night's sleep he'd had in years.

Whatever is going to happen, you aren't in control of it. Getting him out before he drags you further into the rabbit hole with him is the best choice.

Hanna

Also I think you should call your Mother and tell her you need that $ ASAP. You can set up a paypal account for free, and she can use a CC to pay you TODAY without even setting up an account.