Money question-4 years of financial trouble time for bankruptcy?
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Money question-4 years of financial trouble time for bankruptcy?
Not sure if this is the right place but the problem abuser is in year 4 of severe financial trouble related to overspending and lots of alcohol & misc drugs. He refuses to go through bankruptcy and other family members have offered to pay his legal fees(I know enabling).
Actually he was already at least a year's salary in debt by 08 when he lost his job(with almost 2 years notice). He tried the unofficial negotiating tactic of not paying his credit card bills among others in hopes they would be willing to negotiate a settlement. Less than half agreed and has been sued by several companies and people since. He admits his credit has been affected to the point he had trouble getting a cell phone among other things. Credit card companies are a big part of his financial troubles but not the only ones.
After 4 years of not paying a credit card bill among others is it worth trying to stay out of bankruptcy?
Actually he was already at least a year's salary in debt by 08 when he lost his job(with almost 2 years notice). He tried the unofficial negotiating tactic of not paying his credit card bills among others in hopes they would be willing to negotiate a settlement. Less than half agreed and has been sued by several companies and people since. He admits his credit has been affected to the point he had trouble getting a cell phone among other things. Credit card companies are a big part of his financial troubles but not the only ones.
After 4 years of not paying a credit card bill among others is it worth trying to stay out of bankruptcy?
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This is his business, his issue to resolve. From what I have read in your past posts, everyone in the family wants to solve his problems and continues to enable him.
Even if he gets this mess cleaned up, he will just fall back into debt again, as he is out of control, he is a child in a mans body, he has no life skills.
Until he is allowed to fall to his knees, he will NEVER have a chance to get back up and become a productive member of society.
I could give you advice on his issue as that is what I did for a living, negotiated credit issues and represented business clients in bankruptcy, however, this is his problem, not mine, not yours.
Not wanting to be harsh, however, it might be time to let his issues go, and start focusing
on your codependency problem.
Even if he gets this mess cleaned up, he will just fall back into debt again, as he is out of control, he is a child in a mans body, he has no life skills.
Until he is allowed to fall to his knees, he will NEVER have a chance to get back up and become a productive member of society.
I could give you advice on his issue as that is what I did for a living, negotiated credit issues and represented business clients in bankruptcy, however, this is his problem, not mine, not yours.
Not wanting to be harsh, however, it might be time to let his issues go, and start focusing
on your codependency problem.
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keeps asking for more
The thing here the senior family who enabled but recently have been of the concensus of not enabling but are now almost trying to buy him off to go away.I guess it's a one last chance thing but family & ex friends still get phone calls & notices from his creditors on multiple phone numbers let alone having to deal with his antics.
Back to basics it is of not enabling and dealing with co dependency. Thank You.
Back to basics it is of not enabling and dealing with co dependency. Thank You.
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Bankruptcy can be another flavor of rescue. If the person filing isn't ready to break the old financial habits and start anew with a responsible budget (and stick to it), then it is only kicking the can down the road. They have to want this just as they have to want recovery - neither will work if they are imposed on the individual.
Merely sobering up a drunk/addict will only make them a dry drunk/addict and rescuing someone from credit woes without a game plan to move forward will only find them right back in the same position in a few years, having racked up the handful of credit cards/loans at loan shark/usury rates that will find him like a nail seeking a magnet while he is trying to rebuild his credit history.
After a bankruptcy, credit will be highly scrutinized to see if anything has been learned and habits/patterns changed - something that people without BK filings don't have to worry about.
This is one of these issues that can't be solved for another individual and in trying to solve it for them can potentially put them in a much worse position than before. They have to want to change their life and their priorities.
Merely sobering up a drunk/addict will only make them a dry drunk/addict and rescuing someone from credit woes without a game plan to move forward will only find them right back in the same position in a few years, having racked up the handful of credit cards/loans at loan shark/usury rates that will find him like a nail seeking a magnet while he is trying to rebuild his credit history.
After a bankruptcy, credit will be highly scrutinized to see if anything has been learned and habits/patterns changed - something that people without BK filings don't have to worry about.
This is one of these issues that can't be solved for another individual and in trying to solve it for them can potentially put them in a much worse position than before. They have to want to change their life and their priorities.
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fresh start just like days sober
Originally Posted by Aegian 
Bankruptcy can be another flavor of rescue. If the person filing isn't ready to break the old financial habits and start anew with a responsible budget (and stick to it), then it is only kicking the can down the road. They have to want this just as they have to want recovery - neither will work if they are imposed on the individual.
Merely sobering up a drunk/addict will only make them a dry drunk/addict and rescuing someone from credit woes without a game plan to move forward will only find them right back in the same position in a few years, having racked up the handful of credit cards/loans at loan shark/usury rates that will find him like a nail seeking a magnet while he is trying to rebuild his credit history.
After a bankruptcy, credit will be highly scrutinized to see if anything has been learned and habits/patterns changed - something that people without BK filings don't have to worry about.
This is one of these issues that can't be solved for another individual and in trying to solve it for them can potentially put them in a much worse position than before. They have to want to change their life and their priorities.
Merely sobering up a drunk/addict will only make them a dry drunk/addict and rescuing someone from credit woes without a game plan to move forward will only find them right back in the same position in a few years, having racked up the handful of credit cards/loans at loan shark/usury rates that will find him like a nail seeking a magnet while he is trying to rebuild his credit history.
After a bankruptcy, credit will be highly scrutinized to see if anything has been learned and habits/patterns changed - something that people without BK filings don't have to worry about.
This is one of these issues that can't be solved for another individual and in trying to solve it for them can potentially put them in a much worse position than before. They have to want to change their life and their priorities.
I guess the best way to describe how family & friends are looking at bankruptcy especially offering to pay for it only is that this one clearly spelled out last chance for the individual to change. I guess with no strings attached from an enabling standpoint the addict will come back again for a "last chance". He mentioned bankruptcy himself and consulted a bk lawyer.
My theory on bankruptcy alone is that it does give a second even at a high price. Personally I'd rather rack up time building up a new credit history showing I can change. To me waiting to come into money or having to have a future paycheck tapped for the next 4-5 years is a waste and as devasting as bk . I guess you could compare the time working on a new credit history to days sober.
The frustrating thing in this situation his credit is shot already. For him part of the problem is he hasn't given up his fantasy that he belongs in a management or executive job which is tough to get with a bk in your credit history. It goes back to him being selfish I guess.
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I agree with ALL of the above.
When I found recovery in June of '81 I had over $100,000 in credit card debt. That would equal a lot more today. Now in my early recovery I saw some filing for bankruptcy and getting debt free quickly. I can only name one of those, these 30+ years later that stayed clean and sober.
I took the other route. I lived like a pauper, made arrangements with my creditors, paid religiously and within 5 years had it ALL paid off. At 7 years sober I got 2 credit cards, a Master Card and a Visa. Oh, and both cards were issued by creditors I had made arrangements with to pay off my bad debt, lol
I have those same two accounts to this day, with a much higher credit top than when I started at $500 each, lol Thanks to my austere program for those first 7 years, I rarely use them. I learned to save up first before 'buying' a big ticket item.
My point is, LET HIM SINK to his bottom. He is the only one that can save himself.
When you are approached by family members or they want to discuss this, you have the right to say NO and I am no longer comfortable talking about ______. then change the subject.
J M H O
Remember we are walking with you in spirit.
Love and hugs,
When I found recovery in June of '81 I had over $100,000 in credit card debt. That would equal a lot more today. Now in my early recovery I saw some filing for bankruptcy and getting debt free quickly. I can only name one of those, these 30+ years later that stayed clean and sober.
I took the other route. I lived like a pauper, made arrangements with my creditors, paid religiously and within 5 years had it ALL paid off. At 7 years sober I got 2 credit cards, a Master Card and a Visa. Oh, and both cards were issued by creditors I had made arrangements with to pay off my bad debt, lol
I have those same two accounts to this day, with a much higher credit top than when I started at $500 each, lol Thanks to my austere program for those first 7 years, I rarely use them. I learned to save up first before 'buying' a big ticket item.
My point is, LET HIM SINK to his bottom. He is the only one that can save himself.
When you are approached by family members or they want to discuss this, you have the right to say NO and I am no longer comfortable talking about ______. then change the subject.
J M H O
Remember we are walking with you in spirit.
Love and hugs,
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 174
thequest,
I agree with your theory - and that is the reason that BK is even an option! Without a dramatic change in fiscal responsibility though, someone going through a BK won't have the benefit of repaired credit - they will end up with screwed up credit on top of a BK on the record, which is even worse.
Another consideration is the debt in question. If it is unsecured (credit cards and the like) another option is debt consolidation. BK is a little extreme if that is the only question and there is no secured debt (mortgages) in play. A good BK attorney would note this, but that isn't how they get paid - so take that for what its worth.
As far as future employment, trends are grim, and he isn't being realistic (as you have noted). Especially in this economy where employers can afford to pick and choose, things like criminal background and credit checks have moved from an occasional pre-employment activity to a predominate one. As unfair as that sounds, it helps them weed out potential candidates, typically those who have passed the first interview as there is a financial cost to ordering those. Employers are getting more and more picky about hiring people with credit issues - which is a catch 22 right now. The concern is that anyone who has shown a history of mismanaging their personal finances will likely not be the best candidate for making sound decisions at the company for the company's best interests. While some folks have legitimate reasons (medical bills wiping them out), many more seeking that second chance with being employed to their potential (as opposed to underemployed) are finding themselves way behind the curve due to this - and not the BK itself, but the ongoing credibility.
Just an FYI.
I agree with your theory - and that is the reason that BK is even an option! Without a dramatic change in fiscal responsibility though, someone going through a BK won't have the benefit of repaired credit - they will end up with screwed up credit on top of a BK on the record, which is even worse.
Another consideration is the debt in question. If it is unsecured (credit cards and the like) another option is debt consolidation. BK is a little extreme if that is the only question and there is no secured debt (mortgages) in play. A good BK attorney would note this, but that isn't how they get paid - so take that for what its worth.
As far as future employment, trends are grim, and he isn't being realistic (as you have noted). Especially in this economy where employers can afford to pick and choose, things like criminal background and credit checks have moved from an occasional pre-employment activity to a predominate one. As unfair as that sounds, it helps them weed out potential candidates, typically those who have passed the first interview as there is a financial cost to ordering those. Employers are getting more and more picky about hiring people with credit issues - which is a catch 22 right now. The concern is that anyone who has shown a history of mismanaging their personal finances will likely not be the best candidate for making sound decisions at the company for the company's best interests. While some folks have legitimate reasons (medical bills wiping them out), many more seeking that second chance with being employed to their potential (as opposed to underemployed) are finding themselves way behind the curve due to this - and not the BK itself, but the ongoing credibility.
Just an FYI.
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spend now pay later
Originally Posted by cynical one
Personally I would (and did) want to show my creditors (and more so myself) that I would honor what I agreed to when I signed on the dotted line. It took a full time job, and 2 part-time jobs, working almost 100 hours a week, but I paid all my debt .I had accumulated during the "years of insanity". Having a paycheck garnished is a consequence of bad financial decisions. Not paying what you owe results in higher interest rates for all and just reaffirms the sense of entitlement that many have…and addiction or the use of drugs has nothing to do with it.
. And this is an ex manager who made upwards of a 100k a year.The biggest reason I'd rather see him declare bankruptcy is so that hopefully he'll at least start paying back family and friends. I'd rather see future income go for private debt first rather than see court order force that money into a corporation's hands (which they still deserve). It probably won't happen with any speed but at least the chances are better.
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Originally Posted by thequest
The biggest reason I'd rather see him declare bankruptcy is so that hopefully he'll at least start paying back family and friends. I'd rather see future income go for private debt first rather than see court order force that money into a corporation's hands (which they still deserve). It probably won't happen with any speed but at least the chances are better.
You never know. Maybe he will have an epiphany and decide to pay back those who need it the most, first.
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Originally Posted by thequest
The biggest reason I'd rather see him declare bankruptcy is so that hopefully he'll at least start paying back family and friends. I'd rather see future income go for private debt first rather than see court order force that money into a corporation's hands (which they still deserve). It probably won't happen with any speed but at least the chances are better.
Based on what you have shared to date about this guy, I think it a tad unlikely he is going to repay any private debt. That's between him and his unsecured creditors.
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Why I agree to lend money to a friend or family member is based on a personal decision. However, the transaction is a business one, thus a interest bearing promissory note must be
signed, and, I expect repayment, not because I must have the money, it is all about being a
responsible adult.
He will not repay any personal debt, it is all there in front of everyone, including you. He is a deadbeat. Unless the debt can be legally persued (ie a promissory note) there is no hope for repayment and even a judgement against him won't secure repayment.
Let it go, remove yourself from all the drama.
signed, and, I expect repayment, not because I must have the money, it is all about being a
responsible adult.
He will not repay any personal debt, it is all there in front of everyone, including you. He is a deadbeat. Unless the debt can be legally persued (ie a promissory note) there is no hope for repayment and even a judgement against him won't secure repayment.
Let it go, remove yourself from all the drama.
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enabling loan
Originally Posted by fourmaggie
this has ENABLER written all over it....
If I had input at the time I would of said no because I knew he had way too many behaviors/issues to deal with. He was sneaky about it and the elder was very quiet about the loan as well. Needless to say the loan did not go twards cleaning up his then finances. The elder became suspicious and started regretting their decision when he had to ask for a more speedy payback BEFORE the loanee became unemployed.
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stop the calls
Originally Posted by dollydo
Why I agree to lend money to a friend or family member is based on a personal decision. However, the transaction is a business one, thus a interest bearing promissory note must be
signed, and, I expect repayment, not because I must have the money, it is all about being a
responsible adult.
He will not repay any personal debt, it is all there in front of everyone, including you. He is a deadbeat. Unless the debt can be legally persued (ie a promissory note) there is no hope for repayment and even a judgement against him won't secure repayment.
Let it go, remove yourself from all the drama.
signed, and, I expect repayment, not because I must have the money, it is all about being a
responsible adult.
He will not repay any personal debt, it is all there in front of everyone, including you. He is a deadbeat. Unless the debt can be legally persued (ie a promissory note) there is no hope for repayment and even a judgement against him won't secure repayment.
Let it go, remove yourself from all the drama.
I'm no angel!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: tampa, fl
Posts: 6,728
If they continue to bother you demand to talk to their legal division, and, clearly explain that you are not a cosigner on his debt and if they continue to contact you, you will take legal action against them. Ask for their name and mailing address, send them a certified
confirmation letter making it clear that you are not responsibile for his debt and do not want to be contacted again. It is time to play hardball.
Somewhere along his path, he provided the names and numbers, the creditors did not just pull the information out of the sky.
confirmation letter making it clear that you are not responsibile for his debt and do not want to be contacted again. It is time to play hardball.
Somewhere along his path, he provided the names and numbers, the creditors did not just pull the information out of the sky.
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Originally Posted by thequest
The son of a guns actually got my cell phone. .
Is there a reason he needs your cell phone number?
Change it and be done with it.
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Originally Posted by dollydo
If they continue to bother you demand to talk to their legal division, and, clearly explain that you are not a cosigner on his debt and if they continue to contact you, you will take legal action against them. Ask for their name and mailing address, send them a certified
confirmation letter making it clear that you are not responsibile for his debt and do not want to be contacted again. It is time to play hardball.
Somewhere along his path, he provided the names and numbers, the creditors did not just pull the information out of the sky.
confirmation letter making it clear that you are not responsibile for his debt and do not want to be contacted again. It is time to play hardball.
Somewhere along his path, he provided the names and numbers, the creditors did not just pull the information out of the sky.
I second the recommendation quoted above to get them off your back. I am sorry that you are going through this.
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never told me
Originally Posted by Aegian
When I finished school, my exit documentation for my Student Loan "required" that I list the name, address and phone number of 2 relatives and 2 additional references. LOL! I submitted the form with those fields blank and never heard about it again. No ones business but mine that I owe that loan. Ticked me off that they even asked for it.
I second the recommendation quoted above to get them off your back. I am sorry that you are going through this.
I second the recommendation quoted above to get them off your back. I am sorry that you are going through this.
I have heard that many bill collectors are ambitious enough to look up the phone numbers of neighbors and family. I don't agree with the practice. I guess they are hoping you'll put pressure on the individual to handle their problems/pay their bill . We had a neighbor foreclosed on a while back and another neighbor said the bank called them asked to see if they were home and tell them to call back.
I'm just hoping it doesn't escalate beyond this for anyone let alone go away.
Thanks for the observations and comments.
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