If this is the right thing, why does it feel so bad?

Old 01-29-2011, 07:32 AM
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"you cannot force someone to get help" is simply not true. Of course, the likelihood for success is diminished if treatment is imposed against one's will, but most states, if not all, have civil involuntary commitment laws. In many states, the maximum involuntary commitment is for 72 hours, which is the time needed for a psych evaluation to be conducted. During that time, there can be an emergency petition for guardianship and in some states, such as Virginia, there is a "substituted judgment" rule that is very much like guardianship but makes the process quicker and easier. Under this rule, a parent, close relative, or even a close friend can make decisions regarding treatment including options such as a 28 day "lock down" rehab. Virginia's law is very new, effective just this past July, and may be subject to constitutional challenges. In any case, the information you are getting is inaccurate and incomplete.

North Carolina's involuntary commitment law is N.C.G.S. § 122C-263(d)(2).
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Old 01-29-2011, 08:27 PM
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If he is in your house and you feel threatened, you can make him leave.....
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:15 PM
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We haven't heard from redbud since yesterday and her situation sounds extremely serious. The caretaker in me is hoping she is okay.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:18 PM
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I'm still here!!
I've been researching the NC guardianship laws...thank you for sharing your expertise! It seems to be a process, and not a quick and easy thing to do, but is still an option. It seems it could be costly?

My husband got back from his trip a little bit ago (yeah!). Have only spoken briefly, but both agree that something has to give...sooner rather than later. He said he's too tired and drained to have a big talk tonight, and wants us to be well prepared.

My son is ademant that he his not going to the VA appts. tomorrow. He was up all night again, and all day. Does anyone have any suggestions to help get him to the VA, short of a court order??
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by redbud View Post
I'm still here!!
I've been researching the NC guardianship laws...thank you for sharing your expertise! It seems to be a process, and not a quick and easy thing to do, but is still an option. It seems it could be costly?

My husband got back from his trip a little bit ago (yeah!). Have only spoken briefly, but both agree that something has to give...sooner rather than later. He said he's too tired and drained to have a big talk tonight, and wants us to be well prepared.

My son is ademant that he his not going to the VA appts. tomorrow. He was up all night again, and all day. Does anyone have any suggestions to help get him to the VA, short of a court order??
Study as much as possible on the subject, and file pro se (i.e. yourself). You can also call the police and ask them about how you can have him involuntarily committed. The standard is going to be whether he is a danger to himself or others, and if you have reasonable belief that he is, the police may be able to take him into custody and bring him to a psychiatric ward for a 72 hour evaluation, assuming that is what is proper under NC law.

I did a little research on NC's involuntary commitment laws, and for the hospital to determine that he needs inpatient commitment, the team will have to find that he is "mentally ill and dangerous to self or others." NC statutory definitions:

“Dangerous to self”. Within the relevant past: (a) the individual has acted in such a way as to show: (1) that he would be unable without care, supervision, and the continued assistance of others not otherwise available, to exercise self-control, judgment, and discretion in the conduct of his daily responsibilities and social relations or to satisfy his need for nourishment, personal or medical care, shelter, or self-protection and safety; and (2) that there is a reasonable probability of his suffering serious physical debilitation within the near future unless adequate treatment is given. A showing of behavior that is grossly irrational, of actions that the individual is unable to control, of behavior that is grossly inappropriate to the situation, or of other evidence of severely impaired insight and judgment shall create a prima facie inference that the individual is unable to care for himself; or (b) the individual has attempted suicide or threatened suicide and that there is a reasonable probability of suicide unless adequate treatment is given; or (c) the individual has mutilated himself or attempted to mutilate himself and that there is a reasonable probability of serious self-mutilation unless adequate treatment is given. NOTE: Previous episodes of dangerousness to self, when applicable, may be considered when determining reasonable probability of physical debilitation, suicide, or self-mutilation.
“Dangerous to others”. Within the relevant past, the individual has inflicted or attempted to inflict or threatened to inflict serious bodily harm on another, or has acted in such a way as to create a substantial risk of serious bodily harm to another, or has engaged in extreme destruction of property; and that there is a reasonable probability that this conduct will be repeated. Previous episodes of dangerousness to others, when applicable, may be considered when determining reasonable probability of future dangerous conduct.
“Mental illness:. (a) when applied to an adult, an illness which so lessens the capacity of the individual to use self-control, judgment, and discretion in the conduct of his affairs and social relations as to make it necessary or advisable for him to be under treatment, care, supervision, guidance or control; and (b) when applied to a minor, a mental condition, other than mental retardation alone, that so lessens or impairs the youth’s capacity to exercise age adequate self-control and judgment in
the conduct of his activities and social relationships so that he is in need of treatment.
“Substance abuser”. An individual who engages in the pathological use or abuse of alcohol or other drugs in a way or to a degree that produces an impairment in personal, social, or occupational functioning. Substance abuse may include a pattern of tolerance and withdrawal.
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Old 01-30-2011, 05:42 PM
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Honestly, redbud, from what you have described, I doubt that guardianship will be granted or that involuntary inpatient commitment is going to be ordered by the court at this time given the circumstances. Unfortunately, just as in child protection cases, it takes a lot of injury or risk of injury to provide sufficient evidence to reach the standard burden of proof. You may "feel" afraid but unless he actually does something (like swinging a bat or walking around with a knife in his hand) to show he is a danger to you or himself, then the case is weak.

Hang in there. I'm praying for you.
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Old 01-30-2011, 07:16 PM
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Anaserene ~ WoW! That was alot of good information!
We did have him committed about a month ago, and he was kept at the VA for about 8 days. They had a hearing in the VA and the judge ordered him to stay another 10 days, then there would be another hearing. I did not speak at this hearing, as the judge told me it was not neccessary unless I opposed to him remaining under committment. I said I was not opposed. Well, I was halfway home when my son called and said they were releasing him and wanted me to come pick him up! I asked to speak to the doctor, who got on the phone and said the judge had made his ruling based on the doctors' recomendations, and the doctors' recomendations had changed! I asked what had changed in the past hour, since the hearing, and the doctor said my son had agreed to outpt. therapy and outpt. rehab, and was going to get an apartment and go to school and had a very good plan. I told the doctor it seemed a desperate attempt to get out of there, and I didn't think he would follow through with anything, nor was he capable of living alone or going to school. The doctor kept saying that I needed to support my son and come pick him up. I refused to pick him up, but they did discharge him. (I may have already written all of this in an earlier posting....if so, sorry!)

I did not understand that whole process. I was the one who signed the committment papers, and I did not get to speak at the hearing! I had evidence to present...including pictures I found on MY computer, of him with self-inflicted knife cuts on his face, smiling at the camera with blood running down his face. I also had syringes I had found in his room, and information about guns which I pulled out of his "recycle bin" on the computer.

I agree that at this time he would not be deemed enough of a threat...as there have been no recent suicide notes or tangable threatening plans. The thing is, when someone is so isolative, depressed, and angry, you don't know what is going on in their head until something actually happens.

Thank you again, to all of you who take time to sit and read my lengthy posts, and offer me suggestions and support. I promise to pass it on one day!
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Old 01-31-2011, 04:46 AM
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The evidence from the computer should be useful. He cleverly waited until you were gone to promise to go to outpatient treatment, get a job, attend school, because he knew that you would oppose and insist on inpatient treatment. Not knowing the laws in NC, I can't say that the hearing was conducted improperly, but it doesn't smell right.

Just curious, how did you have him committed previously? It sounds to me like he went voluntarily, am I right?
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Old 01-31-2011, 05:54 AM
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No...we tried to have him committed the day after Christmas, by going to the magistrate. The police came and took him to the ER for an evaluation, and he was released. (This was after he had been gone for days, came home with needle marks all over his arms and a huge burn on his hand. He was hallucinating and crying and wrecked his car trying to drive to a methadone clinic. He called me and said he needed help. I drove him to the methadone clinic and his urine was clean, so they would not give him methadone. He was walking around like he was asleep, and after hours of this he "woke up" and said he felt like he'd been walking in his sleep for hours.)

Two days later I again went to the magistrate, and they did commit him. I'm not sure they would have because he was lucid and calm at that time, but I searched his room and found a written plan for suicide and took it to the ER where he was being held. The plan said that he would stockpile meds and take them with methadone and injectables..."roxy" and alcohol. It said that he was sick and suffering and wanted to die. They transfered him to the VA where he said he was fine, had no problems, had written that plan a long time ago, etc. etc.

The BIG problem is, he is due to get a large check today or tomorrow from his car being totalled. I think he is going to get about $5,000 after they pay off his car loan. As my husband said, this is an overdose waiting to happen.

He is very angry again this morning....did not go to the VA (I would have had to drive him, as it's 1 1/2 hours away). He won't talk to anyone in the family, so we don't know his current mental status.

I wonder if his being released from the VA was contingent on him going to outpt. rehab? If so, and he doesn't follow through with anything, will they get an order to have him readmitted? I doubt that they will go to that effort....he is one out of thousands of vets.
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Old 01-31-2011, 07:01 AM
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(((rebud)))
I'm so sorry for all you are going thru with your son.

My son (23 years old) has a dual diagnosis. He also said his mental illness is what caused him to use drugs, he was treating it himself. Even though he was going to psychiatrists and pyschologists.

I read a book call "At wits end" it was so helpful for me, I checked it out at my local library, it's about dual diagnosis and treatment. We then did an intervention and gave him the option of going to long term rehab or being out of our lives with no support.

First he went to detox to get clean and sober, and has now been in rehab for 6 months. He also sees a private psychiatrist and psycologist. It's life long disease and when you combine a mental illness, even if cause by head injury, with an addiction, both need to be treated.

I've also been going to al-anon meetings and seeing therapist myself. I hope you can find the help you need both for yourself and for your son.

Right now with him out on the streets it must be so difficult for you. Hopefully he will come to realize that he needs help. But you need to take care of yourself for your daughters and husband.

So one day at a time, let go and let god... And don't forget the serenity prayer, I say it as often as I can.
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Old 02-01-2011, 02:36 AM
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anewdaytosmile,

Thank you for sharing your sons story. Was he living in your home at the time?

My son is not out of the house.....he is very much living in our house. He was out of the house, but only for a week.

My son did not sleep again....I did not get any sleep either. I kept getting up to see what he was doing, as it seemed he was creeping around the house. Once, I found him sitting in the hall in the pitch dark, facing our room! I asked him what he was doing and he said, "Oh, I must be walking in my sleep", which he was not. (our door was open, as I like to hear what's going on in the house!). I was freaked out, and my imagination went wild.

I know some will say to make him leave. But, do I say to him that he is that he is having mental problems that are scaring me so he must leave?

I can't have him committed at this time, as he is not an obvious threat to himself or others. I don't even think he has been using anything. But, I don't know how much more I can take! The longer this "no sleep" thing goes on, the more concerned I become....and I know he is feeling tormented and is suffering. I can't imagine.

I need help! My sons problems are overwhelming me.....again. I may go to our local mental health clinic for counseling and help with a plan. Seems my husband and I need help with our plan!
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:14 AM
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I found a bowl of cereal in the pantry, and can of soda with a big pile of salt on top on the counter, cream cheese and tuna on the table....he insists he was walking in his sleep all night. He doesn't remember being outside our room in the dark, and only remembers me asking him what he was doing. He still appears to be walking in his sleep to some degree, as he is doing strange things in the kitchen, and isn't totally making sense.

I really can't deal with this.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:02 AM
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redbud, My opinion that he didn't seem dangerous was based on the comments before you gave the account of the previous commitment and circumstances surrounding it (the letter, the web searches for guns, the photos). It's not a professional opinion at all! From the new information you gave, there surely is evidence of dangerousness. Have you called the police to see if they can escort him to the hospital for another evaluation?
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Old 02-01-2011, 10:22 AM
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You have other kids in the house so its not really just about what you and your husband are ok with..i do think its perfectly rational to tell him he has to get help or leave..does that not seem rational to you?Worst case scanario..he does something to one of your other kids,or one of their friends..theoretically child welfare could be involved..
I'm sure you know that lack of sleep ALONE can induce psychosis..that kid who shot the congresswoman was denying himself sleep on purpose..this just sounds like too much for you guys to be dealing with..it seems clear he needs to be in a hospital type setting, which i know you want, but things are getting progressively weirder and more concerning each time you post..I wonder the effect it is having on your other kids..I know when I was so worried about my daughter, my son could've been on fire and I wouldn't have noticed..i regret that
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:28 AM
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You asked if my son was living at home. He was living at home until Feb 2010, when he was 22. At first we had him go to an outpatient program, but as they were changing his meds and he was detoxing from Oxy he became more and more psychotic, so he voluntarily went to a phosp and was admitted because he was talking crazy things about wanting to kill people. He was there for 3 weeks, while they tried to stabalize his meds, he had all kinds of bad reactions. It was a very difficult time for us.

We said he could not come back home and we found a sober house in the area and he continued with an outpatient program for a couple of months. Once they discharged him from the outpatient program, he was still at the sober house, and seeing a pdoc and tdoc, but started using again. He also became psychotic again and wanted to come home. We let him. With the understanding that he would need to move out once we found another place for him. Well things continued to go down hill and he started using in our house! And he thought we didn't know. I'm still not sure if he realizes that we knew he was using in our house because we could smell it and found evidence. (OH WELL...)

So we found a tdoc in the area that specialized in addiction. He recommended a sober house a couple of hours away that had an 18 month program and was very strict. We felt the only way we could convince our son to go there would be with an intervention and actually used a professional interventionist. We gave him the option of going to that rehab or being out of our lives. He choose to go to rehab. (well first to detox then to rehab)

It's only been 6 months but he seems to have gotten over the anger, I think, of us sending him there. He acts like he understands why we sent him and thanks us but I'm still not sure he really means what he says. But he does have another year in the housr. We go see him almost every weekend not and he's seeming better every time we see him.

It wasn't easy, but we weren't willing to kick him out on the streets without giving him an option of somewhere else to live, and he took it. But we did use a professional interventionist.

From your posts, it sounds like you and your kids are not safe, and you need to take some type of action.

Is your son using sleeping meds? Many of them do cause sleep walking and other pyschotic problems. Has he been drug tested to see if he is still using?

It's such a hard thing that you are going thru. I hope you can find some help in your area.

Be safe.
((((redbug))))
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Old 02-02-2011, 08:01 AM
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no words of wisdom but sending you prayers and thoughts. I am so sorry for what your son and your family have gone through. It's scary to think that this happens in our armed services but I know that it does. We obviously don't know how to take care of our own and that is a tragedy.

Sending you thoughts and love
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:31 AM
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What the statistic? More troops committed suicide last year than were killed in combat? Just awful.
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:16 PM
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Anewday, thank you for sharing your story and I hope your son continues to get better. Thank you to every one for your posts of wisdom and support.

I did file papers to have my son committed today, and the police came and took him to the hospital. I don't know if it will "stick" or if they will call me and say they're discharging him. He acted very lucid when the police came, of course.

My son had been going to the methadone clinic for two days, with a carload of local people who drive up the mountain every day to get their methadone. Well, today a couple approached me at the middle school, (former drug users, now on methadone) and told me they were scared my son was going to overdose, as he thinks the methadone clinic started him on too low a dose so he is "supplementing" with other things. They alluded to methadone pills.( I thought he seemed rather sedated yesterday and today...but still wandering the house all night again!)

I drove right over to the local mental health clinic and asked to speak to a crisis worker. He happened to remember my son, and I told him all that has been happening. After having an emergency meeting and calling the psychiatrist, they strongly recomended we have him committed. So, I did.

He is very angry at us. I just pray they keep him, at least for enough time for us to have options to offer, other than the street.

The crisis workers thought the situation sounded dangerous. My son is able to present himself so well when necessary though. In fact, the officer who came told us he remembered him, and said how polite and intelligent he was!
(great.....right?) I think they respect that he's a veteran.

The crisis worker said it will be difficult for anyone to get through his shell, after over three years of "covert operations" training.

Please pray that they do commit him, and find the right place for him to receive the help he deserves.

After the police came my husband cried and said he can't take this any more.

I am sad. And very, very tired.
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Old 02-02-2011, 07:24 PM
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I am praying for your son and the rest of your family.

It is amazing how difficult it is to find help when we need it.

Please get a good nights rest tonight, and don't worry about his being angry, you and your husband did the right, and only thing, you could to help him.

Hugs...........
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:16 PM
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Your son and your family will remain in my prayers. I'm so glad you were able to get him committed.

redbud, my daughter is friends with a vet a few years older than her. He came back physically OK but a mental and emotional mess. He is a good man and a recovering addict. His struggles have been terrible but, just for today, he's clean and living one day at a time.

May God bless you all.
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